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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@softhome.net> on 2004/05/04 21:13:53 UTC
[PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
HI,
This one-liner to Makefile.in makes xgeetext add an adress for
reporting msgid bugs. Else, msgmerge clears it out from the .po files
every time.
Regards,
//Peter
Add address for msgid bugs to .pot file.
* Makefile.in:
(locale-gnu-pot): Add --msgid-bug-address option to xgettext command.
Index: Makefile.in
===================================================================
--- Makefile.in (revision 9621)
+++ Makefile.in (working copy)
@@ -271,6 +271,7 @@
-name "*.c" -print -or \
-name "svn_error_codes.h" -print | \
$(XGETTEXT) -F -k_ -kN_ -kSVN_ERRDEF:3 -c --files-from=- \
+ --msgid-bugs-addres='dev@subversion.tigris.org' \
-o po/subversion.pot )
locale-gnu-po-update: locale-gnu-pot
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <e....@gmx.net>.
> Ben Reser wrote:
> > On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 11:16:16PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> >
> >>Oh; ok. My system does not support that option (RH9; GNU gettext
> v0.11.4). I
> >>remember someone else having the same problem (Ben Reser I think).
> That's
> >>why I decided not to add it. Do you happen to know which version added
> the
> >>option?
> >>
> >>Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
> >
> > Yup and it's also a GNU only extension. Which is something we're trying
> > to avoid...
>
> We're already using gnu extensions in the makefile, and the make target
> is called locale-gnu-pot for that reason.
>
> Erik, the requirement is GNU xgettext >= 0.12. I think it's fine to
> require at least that version to be able to support --msgid-bug-address
> for xgettext and --no-fuzzy-matching for msgmerge. The last option is
> really useful. The fuzzy message merging has never worked well for me.
> An autoconf test would be nice, but since it's only used by
> developers, I don't think we must have it.
I agree that in general we want to avoid GNU (or other) extentions, but
given the name of the build target, we seem to have crossed that border
already :-) (So, yes, I believe there is an exeption for this case)
I downloaded 0.12.1 and am updating TRANSLATING and the build targets
accordingly.
bye,
Erik.
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No fuzzy matching?
Posted by Nicolás Lichtmaier <ni...@reloco.com.ar>.
> Erik, the requirement is GNU xgettext >= 0.12. I think it's fine to
> require at least that version to be able to support
> --msgid-bug-address for xgettext and --no-fuzzy-matching for
> msgmerge. The last option is really useful. The fuzzy message
> merging has never worked well for me.
What? Using this options is very wrong. Fuzzy matching is a great help
many times, and there's absolutely no point in disabling this helpful
feature =/ .
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Tobias Ringström <to...@ringstrom.mine.nu>.
Ben Reser wrote:
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 11:16:16PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
>
>>Oh; ok. My system does not support that option (RH9; GNU gettext v0.11.4). I
>>remember someone else having the same problem (Ben Reser I think). That's
>>why I decided not to add it. Do you happen to know which version added the
>>option?
>>
>>Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
>
> Yup and it's also a GNU only extension. Which is something we're trying
> to avoid...
We're already using gnu extensions in the makefile, and the make target
is called locale-gnu-pot for that reason.
Erik, the requirement is GNU xgettext >= 0.12. I think it's fine to
require at least that version to be able to support --msgid-bug-address
for xgettext and --no-fuzzy-matching for msgmerge. The last option is
really useful. The fuzzy message merging has never worked well for me.
An autoconf test would be nice, but since it's only used by
developers, I don't think we must have it.
/Tobias
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 11:16:16PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> Oh; ok. My system does not support that option (RH9; GNU gettext v0.11.4). I
> remember someone else having the same problem (Ben Reser I think). That's
> why I decided not to add it. Do you happen to know which version added the
> option?
>
> Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
Yup and it's also a GNU only extension. Which is something we're trying
to avoid...
--
Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org
"Conscience is the inner voice which warns us somebody may be looking."
- H.L. Mencken
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Vincent Lefevre <vi...@vinc17.org>.
On 2004-05-06 11:15:02 +0100, Branko Čibej wrote:
> So the idea here is for the translator to see what the original
> translation was like, almost. Heh. How about "svn diff", then? :-)
Not always useful, as parts of the source code sometimes move,
so that translations also move in the po file. And they often
move and get fuzzy at the same time!
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>On 2004-05-06 02:09:48 +0100, Branko Čibej wrote:
>
>
>>Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>>
>>
>>>But anyway fuzzy translations may be very useful. If a fuzzy
>>>translation is wrong, the translator can notice it and change
>>>the whole translation. I don't see any problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>How will the translator notice it? By going through _every_ translation
>>in the file.
>>
>>
>
>No, you have a "fuzzy" marker in the file. So, the translator should
>just search for fuzzy markers or use an editor that will do that for
>him (e.g. emacs with po mode).
>
>The fuzzy marker is a
>
>#, fuzzy
>
>line just before the msgid.
>
>
I stand corrected.
>This is useful when:
> 1) a typo is fixed in the original message;
> 2) the original message is slightly changed/updated.
>
>In these cases (which are the most important ones), the guesses
>are generally correct. Then, in 1, the translator just removes
>the fuzzy marker (TAB in emacs), and in 2, the translator just
>*updates* the translation (without having to rewrite it entirely)
>and removes the fuzzy marker.
>
>
So the idea here is for the translator to see what the original
translation was like, almost. Heh. How about "svn diff", then? :-)
-- Brane
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Vincent Lefevre <vi...@vinc17.org>.
On 2004-05-06 02:09:48 +0100, Branko Čibej wrote:
> Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> >But anyway fuzzy translations may be very useful. If a fuzzy
> >translation is wrong, the translator can notice it and change
> >the whole translation. I don't see any problem.
> >
> How will the translator notice it? By going through _every_ translation
> in the file.
No, you have a "fuzzy" marker in the file. So, the translator should
just search for fuzzy markers or use an editor that will do that for
him (e.g. emacs with po mode).
The fuzzy marker is a
#, fuzzy
line just before the msgid.
> I don't believe the fuzzy translations are marked in any way, so
> this is a real pain. In fact, I can't imagine an algorithm that
> guesses translations correcly without knowing far more about the
> target language than msgmerge can.
This is useful when:
1) a typo is fixed in the original message;
2) the original message is slightly changed/updated.
In these cases (which are the most important ones), the guesses
are generally correct. Then, in 1, the translator just removes
the fuzzy marker (TAB in emacs), and in 2, the translator just
*updates* the translation (without having to rewrite it entirely)
and removes the fuzzy marker.
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Lübbe Onken <l....@rac.de>.
Branko Čibej wrote:
> How will the translator notice it? By going through _every_ translation
> in the file.
Either by searching for the fuzzy markers in the file or by using poEdit
on Windows or KBabel on Linux to translate. Both tools are a really nice
support for the translators.
The fuzzy matches are almost always wrong, but very often they help you
by filling out a single translation to 90% or by simply suggesting
correct terminology.
-Lübbe
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>On 2004-05-05 23:35:37 +0200, Tobias Ringström wrote:
>
>
>>The problem with fuzzy matching is that >90% of the fuzzy "translations"
>>are wrong. If you disable fuzzy matching, you will get empty msgstr:s
>>for new strings in the po file instead of whacky guesses.
>>
>>
>
>But anyway fuzzy translations may be very useful. If a fuzzy
>translation is wrong, the translator can notice it and change
>the whole translation. I don't see any problem.
>
>
How will the translator notice it? By going through _every_ translation
in the file. I don't believe the fuzzy translations are marked in any
way, so this is a real pain. In fact, I can't imagine an algorithm that
guesses translations correcly without knowing far more about the target
language than msgmerge can.
-- Brane
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Vincent Lefevre <vi...@vinc17.org>.
On 2004-05-05 23:35:37 +0200, Tobias Ringström wrote:
> The problem with fuzzy matching is that >90% of the fuzzy "translations"
> are wrong. If you disable fuzzy matching, you will get empty msgstr:s
> for new strings in the po file instead of whacky guesses.
But anyway fuzzy translations may be very useful. If a fuzzy
translation is wrong, the translator can notice it and change
the whole translation. I don't see any problem.
--
Vincent Lefèvre <vi...@vinc17.org> - Web: <http://www.vinc17.org/>
100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn / RISC OS / ARM, free software, YP17,
Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, etc.
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Tobias Ringström <to...@ringstrom.mine.nu>.
Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> I'll leave it to Tobias to comment on the need to have the
> --no-fuzzy-matching. The problem I found is that 0.12 and up will always
The problem with fuzzy matching is that >90% of the fuzzy "translations"
are wrong. If you disable fuzzy matching, you will get empty msgstr:s
for new strings in the po file instead of whacky guesses. An empty
msgstr will cause gettext to return the untranslated english string.
The fuzzy translations can be extremely funny, though. :-)
/Tobias
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 06:29:32PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> Ok. I wasn't that far yet: I have no idea what the relation between this
> work and the release process will be. As it stands a release including
> subversion.pot can only be generated on GNU gettext Makefile based
> systems... For now that leads me to claiming that it won't be included.
>
> That leaves the RM with the task of including the *.po files. Those are in
> the tree and need no changes at the time of release. (Surely we won't
> require the RM to fill the missing translations in the Polish po.. ;-)
Okay now that I went and did some reading I understand better...
.pot is a template to build the .po files.
.po files get built into .mo files
.mo files get installed.
So .pot files and how they are generated have nothing to do with the
build. They're a matter of a tool for the convience of the translator.
Which means there's really no need for the RM or a end user to need to
worry about any of this. Which makes me a lot more comfortable.
> If possible, I'd like to have consistent po file updates. If both pre-
> and post-0.12 versions are used they will be alternatingly installing
> and removing the line..
Gotcha. 0.12 sounds fine to me now.
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@softhome.net>.
On Wed, 5 May 2004, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> I'll leave it to Tobias to comment on the need to have the
> --no-fuzzy-matching. The problem I found is that 0.12 and up will always
> generate the "Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: " line. If possible, I'd like to have
> consistent po file updates. If both pre- and post-0.12 versions are used
> they will be alternatingly installing and removing the line..
>
That, ofcourse, was my motivation for the patch. The problem isn't to put
the line there once, but having to rember to reinsert it everytime.
Regards,
//Peter
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <e....@gmx.net>.
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 05:25:28PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> > It's a requirement for translators; not the build. So I don't see a
> problem
> > in it.
> Presumeably though it is a requirement for the RM.
Ok. I wasn't that far yet: I have no idea what the relation between this
work and the release process will be. As it stands a release including
subversion.pot can only be generated on GNU gettext Makefile based
systems... For now that leads me to claiming that it won't be included.
That leaves the RM with the task of including the *.po files. Those are in
the tree and need no changes at the time of release. (Surely we won't
require the RM to fill the missing translations in the Polish po.. ;-)
> Given that my build
> machines don't have this release and Debian stable doesn't have this
> release, I'd like to avoid having to add one more version for the RM to
> worry about upgrading their machine to. Granted this code isn't near a
> release. I guess I'm not seeing the specific need for 0.12.
Point taken.
I'll leave it to Tobias to comment on the need to have the
--no-fuzzy-matching. The problem I found is that 0.12 and up will always
generate the "Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: " line. If possible, I'd like to have
consistent po file updates. If both pre- and post-0.12 versions are used
they will be alternatingly installing and removing the line..
bye,
Erik.
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 06:20:59PM +0100, Branko ??ibej wrote:
> But also entirely optional. :-)
Only if you also speak English... :)
> Yep. Again, only the translators -- or rather, those translators that
> invoke msgmerge -- have to upgrade. That's on a par with requiring
> pytion-2.x to run the tests. I don't think this requirement is too strict.
Yup agreed.
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Ben Reser wrote:
>On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 05:33:11PM +0100, Branko ??ibej wrote:
>
>
>>Debian stable doesn't have swig-1.3.19, either -- and that's a
>>requirement for anyone who builds from source.
>>
>>
>
>SWIG is also entirely optional and many users will not need or want it.
>Translations is something that many users will want.
>
But also entirely optional. :-)
> The other
>difference is SWIG 1.3.19 is needed because of bugs in SWIG versions
>previous to that, I'd love to have a lower version requirement on that
>but I don't have that option. You'll note that I went out of my way to
>make 1.3.20 and 1.3.21 work without requiring everyone to upgrade to
>them.
>
>
Yep. Again, only the translators -- or rather, those translators that
invoke msgmerge -- have to upgrade. That's on a par with requiring
pytion-2.x to run the tests. I don't think this requirement is too strict.
-- Brane
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 05:33:11PM +0100, Branko ??ibej wrote:
> Of course it isn't. The RM won't go generating .po files, she'll just
> pick up the ones that are in the tree. Translators can just make sure
> they're using a new enough version.
Yup I misunderstood.
> Debian stable doesn't have swig-1.3.19, either -- and that's a
> requirement for anyone who builds from source.
SWIG is also entirely optional and many users will not need or want it.
Translations is something that many users will want. The other
difference is SWIG 1.3.19 is needed because of bugs in SWIG versions
previous to that, I'd love to have a lower version requirement on that
but I don't have that option. You'll note that I went out of my way to
make 1.3.20 and 1.3.21 work without requiring everyone to upgrade to
them.
--
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http://ben.reser.org
"Conscience is the inner voice which warns us somebody may be looking."
- H.L. Mencken
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Ben Reser wrote:
>On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 05:25:28PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
>
>
>>It's a requirement for translators; not the build. So I don't see a problem
>>in it.
>>
>>
>
>Presumeably though it is a requirement for the RM.
>
Of course it isn't. The RM won't go generating .po files, she'll just
pick up the ones that are in the tree. Translators can just make sure
they're using a new enough version.
> Given that my build
>machines don't have this release and Debian stable doesn't have this
>release,
>
Debian stable doesn't have swig-1.3.19, either -- and that's a
requirement for anyone who builds from source.
-- Brane
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 05:25:28PM +0200, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> It's a requirement for translators; not the build. So I don't see a problem
> in it.
Presumeably though it is a requirement for the RM. Given that my build
machines don't have this release and Debian stable doesn't have this
release, I'd like to avoid having to add one more version for the RM to
worry about upgrading their machine to. Granted this code isn't near a
release. I guess I'm not seeing the specific need for 0.12.
> Besides: Some of our requirements involve releases from weeks ago;
> GNU gettext 0.12 is a year old (next week)...
Not sure what you're refering to. Guess you're refering to neon. Which
the "requirement" for 0.24.5 should be reverted based on a conversation
that happened off-list with Joe Orton. We "need" 0.24.5 for a security
issue, but many distros patch for security issues. So we shouldn't have
configure looking for 0.24.5, we should simply recommend 0.24.5 in our
documentation. So I'll probably be reverting that configure change
soon.
> Plus (and that was my main motivation to agree) it adds an option to turn
> off fuzzy matching. Tobias tells me this functionality has not worked for
> him in the past. Do you have better experiences?
I don't have any specific experience with the fuzzy matching stuff. I'm
just not thrilled with adding more requirements...
--
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <e....@gmx.net>.
> > > Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
> > >
> > Since we already require GNU gettext, couldn't we also require the
> version
> > that provides an option that we use. Seems to be 0.12 for the moment.
>
> I'm -1 on requiring gettext 0.12 for such a minimal feature. We already
> have fairly high requirements. Let's not pile one more on the heap for
> something that is pretty unimportant.
It's a requirement for translators; not the build. So I don't see a problem
in it. Besides: Some of our requirements involve releases from weeks ago;
GNU gettext 0.12 is a year old (next week)...
Plus (and that was my main motivation to agree) it adds an option to turn
off fuzzy matching. Tobias tells me this functionality has not worked for
him in the past. Do you have better experiences?
bye,
Erik.
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 10:41:41AM +0200, Peter N. Lundblad wrote:
> 0.12 according to the NEWS file. It was released in May 2003. I use
> Debian, so I had 0.10.something, which doesn't support -U on msgmerge, so
> I updated to the latest 0.14.1.
>
> > Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
> >
> Since we already require GNU gettext, couldn't we also require the version
> that provides an option that we use. Seems to be 0.12 for the moment.
I'm -1 on requiring gettext 0.12 for such a minimal feature. We already
have fairly high requirements. Let's not pile one more on the heap for
something that is pretty unimportant.
If you want to detect gettext 0.12 with configure and use that feature
that's fine. Just don't require it.
--
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@softhome.net>.
On Tue, 4 May 2004, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> > This one-liner to Makefile.in makes xgeetext add an adress for
> > reporting msgid bugs. Else, msgmerge clears it out from the .po files
> > every time.
>
> Oh; ok. My system does not support that option (RH9; GNU gettext v0.11.4). I
> remember someone else having the same problem (Ben Reser I think). That's
> why I decided not to add it. Do you happen to know which version added the
> option?
>
0.12 according to the NEWS file. It was released in May 2003. I use
Debian, so I had 0.10.something, which doesn't support -U on msgmerge, so
I updated to the latest 0.14.1.
> Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
>
Since we already require GNU gettext, couldn't we also require the version
that provides an option that we use. Seems to be 0.12 for the moment.
//Peter
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Re: [PATCH] Get msgid bug address into .pot file
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <e....@gmx.net>.
> HI,
>
> This one-liner to Makefile.in makes xgeetext add an adress for
> reporting msgid bugs. Else, msgmerge clears it out from the .po files
> every time.
Oh; ok. My system does not support that option (RH9; GNU gettext v0.11.4). I
remember someone else having the same problem (Ben Reser I think). That's
why I decided not to add it. Do you happen to know which version added the
option?
Is there a 'reasonable' minimal version to require for translators?
bye,
Erik.
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