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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> on 2008/02/04 14:57:19 UTC
Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
For Apache POI, we'd like to be able to include some xsds with our
distribution, and also in svn. These xsds are part of Microsoft's
specification for OOXML (Office Open XML), and so are covered by the OSP
(Open Specification Promise) [1].
Having read through the OSP, I think it does allow us to ship the xsds
with POI, provided we correctly attribute them to Microsoft in our NOTICE,
and indicate that they're under the OSP. A recent review [2] of the
licence by Baker and McKenzie (a top London IP law firm) seems to support
this, and also with other open source licences.
Before we include the xsds, we wanted to check if this seems to be
correct?
Thanks
Nick
[1] http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx
[2] http://www.bakernet.com/BakerNet/Resources/Publications/Recent+Publications/OpenXML.htm
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/trunk/LICENSE
>
> That should work, no? -- justin
Looks good, thanks. I've updated our LICENSE and NOTICE accordingly
Cheers
Nick
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 8:25 AM, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Currently, we only have the standard apache licence text in our LICENSE
> file.
>
> Could someone point me at a sample LICENSE file that has something like
> what we need in it too, so I can base ours off it? (For now, we have a
> reference to the OSP/ECMA licence in NOTICE, which we'll shift over)
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/httpd/trunk/LICENSE
That should work, no? -- justin
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2008 3:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> If you don't hear any objections in 72hours from when you originally
>> posted this message, feel free to proceed. Just make sure that you
>> put enough information in your NOTICES file so that people who
>> download POI don't have to repeat the work you just did.
>
> s/NOTICE/LICENSE/, then I think you're on the right track. -- justin
Currently, we only have the standard apache licence text in our LICENSE
file.
Could someone point me at a sample LICENSE file that has something like
what we need in it too, so I can base ours off it? (For now, we have a
reference to the OSP/ECMA licence in NOTICE, which we'll shift over)
Thanks
Nick
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Feb 15, 2008 3:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> If you don't hear any objections in 72hours from when you originally
> posted this message, feel free to proceed. Just make sure that you
> put enough information in your NOTICES file so that people who
> download POI don't have to repeat the work you just did.
s/NOTICE/LICENSE/, then I think you're on the right track. -- justin
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Feb 15, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2008 6:06 AM, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> From all this, I believe we are fine to distribute the OOXML xsds
>> within
>> apache poi (and any other apache project that wants to). Is that what
>> everyone else thinks too?
>
> If you don't hear any objections in 72hours from when you originally
> posted this message, feel free to proceed. Just make sure that you
> put enough information in your NOTICES file so that people who
> download POI don't have to repeat the work you just did.
No, not the NOTICES file. The only thing that should ever appear in
NOTICES are mandatory attributions. It is for credits that we are
obligated (by license) to display, not for licenses or readme
documentation.
....Roy
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Feb 15, 2008 6:06 AM, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> From all this, I believe we are fine to distribute the OOXML xsds within
> apache poi (and any other apache project that wants to). Is that what
> everyone else thinks too?
If you don't hear any objections in 72hours from when you originally
posted this message, feel free to proceed. Just make sure that you
put enough information in your NOTICES file so that people who
download POI don't have to repeat the work you just did.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008, Nick Burch wrote:
> He tells me that Microsoft's legal team are currently pondering the
> problem, and hopefully we'll have an answer in a week or two
Microsoft have just got back to me. The answer seems good, but certainly
makes you appreciate just finding the license nicely attached with all our
software!
They pointed my at their white paper "There are no
IPR issues with Open XML", which can be found at
<http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/HA102547511033.aspx>.
The answer to question 15 of that states that the copyright of the
specification has been given over to ECMA, so it's under their license.
Their email re-iterated this with:
"Copyright is an expression of the invention such as
documentation. As such, it's Ecma that provides the copyright
license for its Ecma documentation, and not Microsoft. The white
paper faq addresses this in more detail."
Finding a statement from EMCA on their license isn't the easiest thing,
but they do have two appropriate statements:
"All documents when approved shall be made available to all interested
parties without restriction."
http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/Ecmabylaws.htm - section 9.4
"Ecma International grants a non-exclusive, royalty-free license to obtain
(on paper or per download), reproduce and use the information contained in
its standards"
http://www.ecma-international.org/activities/Office%20Open%20XML%20Formats/Istvan%20Sebestyen%20presentation.ppt
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:VFa1IjFm7dAJ:www.ecma-international.org/activities/Office%2520Open%2520XML%2520Formats/Istvan%2520Sebestyen%2520presentation.ppt+site:ecma-international.org+license&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&client=mozilla
- page 10
From all this, I believe we are fine to distribute the OOXML xsds within
apache poi (and any other apache project that wants to). Is that what
everyone else thinks too?
Nick
Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Nick Burch wrote:
> I've sent an email to Brian Jones <http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/>,
> who comments a lot on ooxml related stuff, asking him about the
> copyright licence covering the xsds. I'll report back if I get a reply
No reply from Brian Jones, but another contact at Microsoft has been
looking into it for me. He tells me that Microsoft's legal team are
currently pondering the problem, and hopefully we'll have an answer in a
week or two
Nick
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Nick Burch wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Sam Ruby wrote:
>>> You get the xsds from the ECMA site:
>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm
>>> which simply says "Copy these file(s), free of charge:"
>>
>> Hmmm. Would prefer some more specifics.
>
> Yes, it's all rather vague really
>
>>> The xsd files themselves have no copyright or licence information in
>>> them,
>>> or in the zip file they come in. So, I believe they're under the OSP,
>>> along with all the rest of the specifications
>>
>> OSP appears to be a patent non-assertion covenant, not a copyright
>> license. I have no doubt that a copyright license exists someplace,
>> but I have yet to locate it.
>
> I've sent an email to Brian Jones <http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/>,
> who comments a lot on ooxml related stuff, asking him about the
> copyright licence covering the xsds. I'll report back if I get a reply
If we don't have a resolution by late next week, I can bring this issue
with me to Redmond.
Bill
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> You get the xsds from the ECMA site:
>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm
>> which simply says "Copy these file(s), free of charge:"
>
> Hmmm. Would prefer some more specifics.
Yes, it's all rather vague really
>> The xsd files themselves have no copyright or licence information in them,
>> or in the zip file they come in. So, I believe they're under the OSP,
>> along with all the rest of the specifications
>
> OSP appears to be a patent non-assertion covenant, not a copyright
> license. I have no doubt that a copyright license exists someplace, but
> I have yet to locate it.
I've sent an email to Brian Jones <http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/>,
who comments a lot on ooxml related stuff, asking him about the copyright
licence covering the xsds. I'll report back if I get a reply
Nick
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Feb 5, 2008 11:41 AM, Nick Burch <ni...@torchbox.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > What is the copyright license associated with these XSDs?
>
> I believe it's the Microsoft OSP
I don't see the word "copyright" anywhere on
http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx
> You get the xsds from the ECMA site:
> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm
> which simply says "Copy these file(s), free of charge:"
Hmmm. Would prefer some more specifics.
> The xsd files themselves have no copyright or licence information in them,
> or in the zip file they come in. So, I believe they're under the OSP,
> along with all the rest of the specifications
OSP appears to be a patent non-assertion covenant, not a copyright
license. I have no doubt that a copyright license exists someplace,
but I have yet to locate it.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@torchbox.com>.
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Sam Ruby wrote:
> What is the copyright license associated with these XSDs?
I believe it's the Microsoft OSP
You get the xsds from the ECMA site:
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm
which simply says "Copy these file(s), free of charge:"
The xsd files themselves have no copyright or licence information in them,
or in the zip file they come in. So, I believe they're under the OSP,
along with all the rest of the specifications
Nick
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
On Feb 4, 2008 12:52 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> I'd like to see the third party license document(s) [1] [2] writtten
> by Cliff and Sam to be updated with this license before taking any
> action.
Craig:
Cliff is no longer active in this PMC.
Nick:
What is the copyright license associated with these XSDs?
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
I'd like to see the third party license document(s) [1] [2] writtten
by Cliff and Sam to be updated with this license before taking any
action.
Craig
[1] http://people.apache.org/~rubys/3party.html
[2] http://people.apache.org/~cliffs/3party.html
On Feb 4, 2008, at 5:57 AM, Nick Burch wrote:
> For Apache POI, we'd like to be able to include some xsds with our
> distribution, and also in svn. These xsds are part of Microsoft's
> specification for OOXML (Office Open XML), and so are covered by the
> OSP (Open Specification Promise) [1].
>
> Having read through the OSP, I think it does allow us to ship the
> xsds with POI, provided we correctly attribute them to Microsoft in
> our NOTICE, and indicate that they're under the OSP. A recent review
> [2] of the licence by Baker and McKenzie (a top London IP law firm)
> seems to support this, and also with other open source licences.
>
> Before we include the xsds, we wanted to check if this seems to be
> correct?
>
> Thanks
> Nick
>
> [1] http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx
> [2] http://www.bakernet.com/BakerNet/Resources/Publications/Recent+Publications/OpenXML.htm
>
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> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
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> official ASF policies and documents.
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>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Compatibility of Microsoft OSP and ASL v2?
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, sebb wrote:
>> [1] http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx
>> [2] http://www.bakernet.com/BakerNet/Resources/Publications/Recent+Publications/OpenXML.htm
>>
>
> Got an error looking for [2]; is the URL below the same document?
>
> http://www.bakernet.com/BakerNet/Resources/Publications/Recent+Publications/LondonOpenXMLBookJan08.htm
Looks like they slightly updated the document between me writing the email
and managing to subscribe to the list :/
Yes, the one you found is the latest version of the Baker and McKenzie
document. The slightly older version can be found at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070705012733/http://www.bakernet.com/BakerNet/Resources/Publications/Recent+Publications/OpenXML.htm
if you want to see what they've changed!
Nick
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