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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by spm <ma...@tapestryforums.com> on 2006/01/18 21:59:27 UTC
Tapestry Benefits
So my management is finally interested in hearing about the benefits of Tapestry.
I'm partucularly interested in the following sections:
Benefits of using Tapestry (from the management perspective ie managers)
- Cost benefits
- Infrastructure
- Ease of applying business changes
- Support (so far these forums have been great, documentation is improving).
- Tapestry productivity vs Struts
- Tapestry vs JSF (Sun standard - ya I know...I know it will come up).
Developer Benefits:
- Learning curve
- Tools (I really like the Spindle/Pallette combo)
- Components repositories (I know of t-deli and tassel so far, are there others?)
Anything else that will help SELL tapestry to management. Anything that quantify the savings in time/cost of developing using Tapestry. There are many quotes about that point, but real hard numbers.
References would be good as well.
- NHL, others?
I found some pieces on the web, I will try to incorporate them. So far I have:
Struts vs Tapestry
http://www.innoq.com/blog/st/2003/05/struts_sucks.html
http://books.slashdot.org/books/02/12/27/1559200.shtml?tid=108
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-tapestry/TapestryFasttrackForStrutsProgrammers
JSF vs Tapestry
http://www.theserverside.com/articles/article.tss?l=JSFTapestry
Anyways, I'm writing a document about Tapestry and Benefits, and what I will do, is post it back to the web.
Lets sell this together!
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-------------------- m2f --------------------
RE: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Aaron Bartell <al...@gmail.com>.
>Btw, ASP.NET is being pitched to my management...so half a
troll...reality.
Good luck. Microsoft raided my previous employer that had dozens of IBM
iSeries machines as their backbone running missing critical applications,
and through Microsoft's near flawless marketing they got their foot in the
door and now some of the most critical applications in that business are
being developed with Microsoft technologies (say Biztalk, MSSQL, IIS, etc).
Not saying that .NET/Microsoft is all bad, but for a company that has
invested millions in knowledge and technology in the IBM market and to then
not even follow IBM's roadmap (say Java) is crazy! That tells me Microsoft
is second to none when it comes to marketing their products and tools.
Good luck :-)
Aaron Bartell
-----Original Message-----
From: spm [mailto:maillist@tapestryforums.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:25 PM
To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: RE: Tapestry Benefits
Richard Clark wrote:
>
> This strikes me as a "troll" -- a statement intended merely to provoke
> people via annoyance. The simple fact is, your previous message asked
> an incredibly broad question and that's exactly the type of question
> that tends to get ignored on mailing lists. (And, if you haven't
> noticed, most of the people posting here are actively developing, so
> their free time is at a premium.)
>
> If you have a few focused, specific questions, you'll get much better
> results.
>
> ...R
>
Ya, I guess you're right. I probably asked too many questions. Btw, ASP.NET
is being pitched to my management...so half a troll...reality.
I am sold on Tapestry. I need to sell it to my mgmt. I was hoping to get a
few answers here...was just disappointed in no answer at all.
Okay the important ones I have.
1. Any references of Tapestry in production?
2. What is the developer productivity Tapestry vs Struts? Estimate?
Thanks!
-------------------- m2f --------------------
Sent from www.TapestryForums.com
Read this topic online here: <<topic_link>>
http://www.tapestryforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=13664#13664
-------------------- m2f --------------------
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RE: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by spm <ma...@tapestryforums.com>.
Richard Clark wrote:
>
> This strikes me as a "troll" -- a statement intended merely to
> provoke people via annoyance. The simple fact is, your previous
> message asked an incredibly broad question and that's exactly the
> type of question that tends to get ignored on mailing lists. (And, if
> you haven't noticed, most of the people posting here are actively
> developing, so their free time is at a premium.)
>
> If you have a few focused, specific questions, you'll get much better
> results.
>
> ...R
>
Ya, I guess you're right. I probably asked too many questions. Btw, ASP.NET is being pitched to my management...so half a troll...reality.
I am sold on Tapestry. I need to sell it to my mgmt. I was hoping to get a few answers here...was just disappointed in no answer at all.
Okay the important ones I have.
1. Any references of Tapestry in production?
2. What is the developer productivity Tapestry vs Struts? Estimate?
Thanks!
-------------------- m2f --------------------
Sent from www.TapestryForums.com
Read this topic online here: <<topic_link>>
http://www.tapestryforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=13664#13664
-------------------- m2f --------------------
Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Richard Clark <rd...@nextquestion.net>.
If you want to "sell" Tapestry to management, here are some points to
consider:
1) The Java "ecosystem" is far more mature than the .Net ecosystem --
there are more experienced programmers, more tools, more libraries,
etc. It's relatively easy to find a library that does what you need,
especially as free and open source.
2) Team productivity:
- Tapestry lets UI designers concentrate on creating and editing web
pages in the tools they're accustomed to using. You don't have
mixtures of code and layout -- they're cleanly separated. (If you use
Eclipse, the Spindle plugin also checks the syntax of all the
tapestry annotations in the HTML files. There's no good static
checking for JSP files, it's more like "run it and see if it breaks.")
- Tapestry lets coders concentrate on code in regular Java files.
You get the full power of whichever development tools you choose to use.
- Tapestry delivers incredibly rich information when something goes
wrong. (You not only know which line in which Tapestry file, but you
get a full stack trace, often with line numbers.) Most of the time,
it leads you right to the bug
- Pages are "live" during development -- edit a page, hit reload in
your browser, and your changes are there. For deployment, just switch
on the cache and it all becomes blazingly fast.
- Reusability is easy. If you start using something in multiple
pages, it's easy to pull that out and make a common component.
3) The community:
- The full sources to Tapestry are freely available, which makes
debugging (and development) much simpler than working with a closed-
source system.
- If you don't like a feature in ASP.NET, tough. If you don't like a
feature in Tapestry or need a new one, there's a community behind it
and you have great access to its author. (Howard wrote a key
component of our production system in less than a day, during a class.)
I could go on and on. I've been working for a year on a major project
for Autodesk (and it's in beta now), and we had our choice of any
technologies at the start. We went wit Tapestry and have never looked
back. The application has grown and changed as the business needs
evolved, and keeping the UI look and feel current with the business
needs has been one of the easiest parts of this project (which is a
very serious workflow engine.) I'm in the middle of a complete
reorganization of the UI (about 100 screens) into a new workflow, and
it's taking me about a week. Try re-organizing a serious database-
driven 100-screen ASP.Net app completely in a week.
The project manager and I were reviewing the app this morning, and I
was literally fixing bugs and adding features faster than he could
enter them into the bug tracker. (And I'm not one of those walk-on-
water programers; I'm pretty good, but my specialty is instructional
design and architecting systems. I'm not even a heavyweight Tapestry
guy; I've been focusing on the back-end of the system for half of the
year.)
If your management is serious, they'll look at the whole picture --
cost, support, the availability of talent and tools, etc. Under those
conditions, Tapestry becomes very attractive.
...Richard
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Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Jorge Quiroga <jq...@pctltda.com>.
Hi:
See this page http://www.thoughtsabout.net/blog/archives/000052.html
inside has some links that you can see
Bye
JQ
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Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Hugo Palma <hu...@gmail.com>.
You can find success stories here
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-tapestry/SuccessStories
On 24/01/06, spm <ma...@tapestryforums.com> wrote:
>
>
> Richard Clark wrote:
> >
> > This strikes me as a "troll" -- a statement intended merely to
> > provoke people via annoyance. The simple fact is, your previous
> > message asked an incredibly broad question and that's exactly the
> > type of question that tends to get ignored on mailing lists. (And, if
> > you haven't noticed, most of the people posting here are actively
> > developing, so their free time is at a premium.)
> >
> > If you have a few focused, specific questions, you'll get much better
> > results.
> >
> > ...R
> >
>
>
>
> Ya, I guess you're right. I probably asked too many questions. Btw,
> ASP.NET is being pitched to my management...so half a troll...reality.
>
> I am sold on Tapestry. I need to sell it to my mgmt. I was hoping to get a
> few answers here...was just disappointed in no answer at all.
>
> Okay the important ones I have.
> 1. Any references of Tapestry in production?
> 2. What is the developer productivity Tapestry vs Struts? Estimate?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -------------------- m2f --------------------
>
> Sent from www.TapestryForums.com
>
> Read this topic online here: <<topic_link>>
>
> http://www.tapestryforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=13664#13664
>
> -------------------- m2f --------------------
>
>
>
>
RE: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by spm <ma...@tapestryforums.com>.
I guess with all the input we better just go with ASP.NET!
-------------------- m2f --------------------
Sent from www.TapestryForums.com
Read this topic online here: <<topic_link>>
http://www.tapestryforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=13593#13593
-------------------- m2f --------------------
Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Richard Clark <rd...@nextquestion.net>.
On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:59, spm wrote:
> I guess with all the input we better just go with ASP.NET!
This strikes me as a "troll" -- a statement intended merely to
provoke people via annoyance. The simple fact is, your previous
message asked an incredibly broad question and that's exactly the
type of question that tends to get ignored on mailing lists. (And, if
you haven't noticed, most of the people posting here are actively
developing, so their free time is at a premium.)
If you have a few focused, specific questions, you'll get much better
results.
...R
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Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Richard Clark <rd...@nextquestion.net>.
On Jan 25, 2006, at 20:21, Alexander Varakin wrote:
> in Wicket that for each form control one has to create an
> instance of a class and bind it to html page. IMO this violates the
> DRY(do
> not repeat yourself) principle.
Tapestry 3 also has some replications (.page file vs. backing Java
code, if you have that), but Tapestry 4 + JDK 1.5 annotations cleans
that up nicely. The only thing I really miss would be .page file
inheritance, as others have discussed.
My largest concern w/ Wicket is its immaturity. I wouldn't want to
hang a big commercial project on it.
...Richard
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Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by Alexander Varakin <av...@optonline.net>.
Before settling on Tapestry, I tried comparing Tapestry and Wicket and I
didn't like in Wicket that for each form control one has to create an
instance of a class and bind it to html page. IMO this violates the DRY(do
not repeat yourself) principle. This could be OK if Wicket was backed by some
visual tool like .NET, but doing it manually is cumbersome.
Also doing something like Tiles required creating panel classes and frankly I
couldn't figure out how exactly it works.
Even Wicket developers admit that Wicket may have performance issues.
Alex
> I've seen the comparison of Tapestry vs JSF, but it seems one comparing to
> Wicket is in order. Can anyone briefly summarise the approach and pros/cons
> when comparing them?
>
> John
>
>
>
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Re: Tapestry Benefits
Posted by John Coleman <jo...@ntlworld.com>.
> This is an interesting poll: the first result was that Wicket is the one,
now
> it is Tapestry
I've seen the comparison of Tapestry vs JSF, but it seems one comparing to
Wicket is in order. Can anyone briefly summarise the approach and pros/cons
when comparing them?
John
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