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Posted to diversity@apache.org by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> on 2019/05/11 15:08:45 UTC
FAQ and education mailing list
From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
do-ocracy culture.
When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
and considered it.
Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
contribute their experience.
I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 5/13/19 2:37 PM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> apologies for the second follow up. two things:
>
> 1) it's not really even about bifuricating "the community". it's about the
> fact that there are two groups of people here: the people who want to get
> D&I work done, and the people who want to learn about D&I work (or
> challenge that work)
>
> 2) perhaps diversity-learn@ is a better name
Possibly the bifurcation should go the other way. ie, diversity@ is the
one that the masses will go to, because it's the simple name, and
diversity-actually-get-stuff-done@ is the one where we *do* stuff. :D
-- Rich "Only half kidding" Bowen
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
apologies for the second follow up. two things:
1) it's not really even about bifuricating "the community". it's about the
fact that there are two groups of people here: the people who want to get
D&I work done, and the people who want to learn about D&I work (or
challenge that work)
2) perhaps diversity-learn@ is a better name
On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:32, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> erm, "this isn't an appropriate list for this thread, ..."
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:31, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
>> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
>> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
>> to accomplish
>>
>> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
>> able to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it
>> to diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>>
>> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
>> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
>> much we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
>> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>>> To: diversity@apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>> > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>> > mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>>
>>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>>> and this one is not too large.
>>>
>>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>>> others aware of what's going on.
>>>
>>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>>
>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>>
>>>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
erm, "this isn't an appropriate list for this thread, ..."
On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:31, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> to accomplish
>
> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>
> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> much we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>> To: diversity@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>> > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>> > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>> > mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>
>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>> and this one is not too large.
>>
>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>> others aware of what's going on.
>>
>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>
>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2019-05-14 12:17 p.m., Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 5/14/2019 8:18 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 5:05 PM Griselda Cuevas
>> <gr...@google.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> ...The word does not have a negative connotation to me since I
>>> translated
>>> it from Spanish....
Thanks Gris! Indeed in English, "preaching" tends to have more of a
religious definition, even avoiding connotative meanings.
> I think maybe it needs a mention in the Question 1 response, but I am
> also thinking of a complete question and answer on the risk of
> miscommunication, especially in writing unaided by tone of voice, facial
> expressions, and body language. It is further complicated when people
> are using different dialects, or writing in a language in which they do
> not have complete native speaker fluency.
Absolutely. The CoC talks about this in detail; here's a couple of quotes:
> Be inquisitive. Nobody knows everything! Asking questions early avoids many problems later, so questions are encouraged, though they may be directed to the appropriate forum.
> Be careful in the words that we choose. Whether we are participating as professionals or volunteers, we value professionalism in all interactions, and take responsibility for our own speech.
> Assume good faith; it is more likely that participants are unaware of their bad behaviour than that they intentionally try to degrade the quality of the discussion.
https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html
-Joan
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Ruth Holloway <ru...@hiruthie.me>.
Hi!
A friend of mine did a really good talk on inclusiveness of application
design last year, that may be relevant to this sort of resource. Very
tongue-in-cheek, but talks rather a lot about cultural awareness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f8882vQVdI
D Ruth Holloway
https://HiRuthie.me
On 5/14/2019 11:22 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:17 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>> ...I am
>> also thinking of a complete question and answer on the risk of
>> miscommunication, especially in writing unaided by tone of voice, facial
>> expressions, and body language. It is further complicated when people
>> are using different dialects, or writing in a language in which they do
>> not have complete native speaker fluency...
> At the risk of shamelessly plugging my own stuff, I did a presentation
> on this at last years FOSS Backstage, entitled "tales from the
> multi-cultural trenches", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4uzW6jTG3k
>
> I suppose the FAQ should also include a list of link to such things,
> several of us have been giving talks in this area.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:17 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> ...I am
> also thinking of a complete question and answer on the risk of
> miscommunication, especially in writing unaided by tone of voice, facial
> expressions, and body language. It is further complicated when people
> are using different dialects, or writing in a language in which they do
> not have complete native speaker fluency...
At the risk of shamelessly plugging my own stuff, I did a presentation
on this at last years FOSS Backstage, entitled "tales from the
multi-cultural trenches", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4uzW6jTG3k
I suppose the FAQ should also include a list of link to such things,
several of us have been giving talks in this area.
-Bertrand
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
On 5/14/2019 8:18 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 5:05 PM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid> wrote:
>> ...The word does not have a negative connotation to me since I translated
>> it from Spanish....
>
> It looks like we have multiple examples already where specific
> "loaded" words really do not mean the same in different cultures.
>
> My suggestion is that, instead of insisting too much that people avoid
> those words we recognize that asking for clarification about what
> people really mean is the only way to go - like Joan did nicely here.
>
> That might be a FAQ item maybe...
Noted.
I think maybe it needs a mention in the Question 1 response, but I am
also thinking of a complete question and answer on the risk of
miscommunication, especially in writing unaided by tone of voice, facial
expressions, and body language. It is further complicated when people
are using different dialects, or writing in a language in which they do
not have complete native speaker fluency.
Both readers and writers need to be aware of the possible gap between
the writer's intent and the reader's interpretation.
The quoted case is indeed a very good example of how to handle these
problems. Joan explained what troubled her about the use of the word
"preaching" and asked for clarification. Griselda explained what she
meant using other words.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 5:05 PM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid> wrote:
> ...The word does not have a negative connotation to me since I translated
> it from Spanish....
It looks like we have multiple examples already where specific
"loaded" words really do not mean the same in different cultures.
My suggestion is that, instead of insisting too much that people avoid
those words we recognize that asking for clarification about what
people really mean is the only way to go - like Joan did nicely here.
That might be a FAQ item maybe...
-Bertrand
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
@Joan - Thanks for asking for clarification, to me preaching means "living
by our ideologies" and helping others understand and support them. The word
does not have a negative connotation to me since I translated it from
Spanish.
Alex, you got my point right, thank you for articulate them well.
*From: *Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
*Date: *Tue, May 14, 2019, 12:32 AM
*To: *diversity@apache.org
I'm definitely not an expert in this area, but want to share some thoughts:
>
> 1) If this group wants to be open and transparent then the number of
> mailing lists will not matter. Trolls will find any public mailing list.
> Well-intentioned newbies will not understand which list to choose from.
> They'll just pick one. So we might as well just have one list for now.
>
> 2) IMO, "Patience" has two meanings: a) waiting, and b) not reacting. I
> don't think Gris meant that we should wait out the trolls and keep
> answering them. Instead, each troll should be seen as an opportunity to
> practice and hone a proper response that shuts down the troll and allows
> everyone else to continue making progress. IMO, I still see too much
> reacting on this list. Reacting is what the trolls want from us. They
> want you to divert your energy to them. The trolls will not go away
> anytime soon. I think we'll be better off expecting that some of our
> energy will be diverted by trolls and spend some energy on minimizing how
> much energy goes to them. The FAQ will hopefully help in that regard.
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
> On 5/13/19, 2:38 PM, "Matt Sicker" <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And patience is fairly difficult when dealing with obvious concern
> trolls.
> That has been especially annoying on members@, board@, etc, where
> we’re
> supposed to assume good faith. However, only one side in the game
> takes a
> loss when doing so in an iterated game. I’d rather not summarize the
> depressing relationship between game theory and discourse, but I hope
> you
> get the idea.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:29, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects.
> User
> > list for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of
> makes
> > sense.
> >
> > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
> >> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility
> and
> >> > authority to speak of this topic.
> >>
> >> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
> >>
> >> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place
> in a
> >> secular organisation such as the ASF.
> >>
> >> -Joan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>
> >> --
> > Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> >
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>.
I'm definitely not an expert in this area, but want to share some thoughts:
1) If this group wants to be open and transparent then the number of mailing lists will not matter. Trolls will find any public mailing list. Well-intentioned newbies will not understand which list to choose from. They'll just pick one. So we might as well just have one list for now.
2) IMO, "Patience" has two meanings: a) waiting, and b) not reacting. I don't think Gris meant that we should wait out the trolls and keep answering them. Instead, each troll should be seen as an opportunity to practice and hone a proper response that shuts down the troll and allows everyone else to continue making progress. IMO, I still see too much reacting on this list. Reacting is what the trolls want from us. They want you to divert your energy to them. The trolls will not go away anytime soon. I think we'll be better off expecting that some of our energy will be diverted by trolls and spend some energy on minimizing how much energy goes to them. The FAQ will hopefully help in that regard.
My 2 cents,
-Alex
On 5/13/19, 2:38 PM, "Matt Sicker" <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
And patience is fairly difficult when dealing with obvious concern trolls.
That has been especially annoying on members@, board@, etc, where we’re
supposed to assume good faith. However, only one side in the game takes a
loss when doing so in an iterated game. I’d rather not summarize the
depressing relationship between game theory and discourse, but I hope you
get the idea.
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:29, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User
> list for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes
> sense.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
>> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
>> > authority to speak of this topic.
>>
>> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
>>
>> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
>> secular organisation such as the ASF.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
And patience is fairly difficult when dealing with obvious concern trolls.
That has been especially annoying on members@, board@, etc, where we’re
supposed to assume good faith. However, only one side in the game takes a
loss when doing so in an iterated game. I’d rather not summarize the
depressing relationship between game theory and discourse, but I hope you
get the idea.
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:29, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User
> list for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes
> sense.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
>> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
>> > authority to speak of this topic.
>>
>> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
>>
>> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
>> secular organisation such as the ASF.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User list
for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes sense.
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
> > authority to speak of this topic.
>
> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
>
> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
> secular organisation such as the ASF.
>
> -Joan
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
> Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
> authority to speak of this topic.
Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
secular organisation such as the ASF.
-Joan
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
I respectfully disagree on the need to split two sets of people.
We need to exercise patience regardless of our backgrounds (I am personally
very empathetic of everyone who has fought this battle and has lost or has
been hurt), I understand is not easy, but we are also not alone.
Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
authority to speak of this topic.
So, I would like to invite us to consider creating a safe welcoming space
for all, even those who seek to trouble us. This means keep our convos in
just one list for now and focus on publishing the wiki page.
In any case, my preference is not to split but will support Patricia et Al
in what they decide.
P.s.
I also wanna say that I recognize that in the future we might need to open
diff comm channels, to deal with other sorts of matters, I just don't want
to do this for a reason that might go against what we want to defend.
*From: *Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 2:45 PM
*To: * <di...@apache.org>
I think there is already evidence that we need separate lists. We have
> two populations that need to be kept apart:
>
> 1. People who are so sick of answering the same questions time after
> time that they are unlikely to exercise patience, tact, and diplomacy
> when faced with them yet again on their working mailing list.
>
> 2. People who think their questions about D&I are new and would like
> them answered.
>
> We really need to get Group 2 into a mailing list that Group 1 can
> ignore. People like me who are relatively new to this can handle Group 2
> more gently, which may help the politics in the long term.
>
> Here are a couple of alternative names:
>
> diversity-doing (we are supposed to be a do-ocracy, so doing something
> about diversity should be OK)
>
> diversity-working-group (specifically for the committee and those of us
> who are trying to help them by doing some of the work).
>
>
>
> On 5/13/2019 11:53 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > -0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
> >
> > -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D&I
> means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This
> creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action" will reinforce
> this assumption.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> > To: diversity@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >
> > I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> > waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> > names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> > questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> > diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> > appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> > diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> > diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
> >
> >
> > On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to
> address
> >> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to
> see
> >> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> >> to accomplish
> >>
> >> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
> able
> >> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it
> to
> >> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
> >>
> >> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> >> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> much
> >> we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> >> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> >>> To: diversity@apache.org
> >>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> wrote:
> >>>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> >>>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> >>>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
> >>>
> >>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> >>> and this one is not too large.
> >>>
> >>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> >>> others aware of what's going on.
> >>>
> >>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> >>> lists" message that I relayed at
> >>>
> >>>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3D&reserved=0
> >>>
> >>> -Bertrand
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
I think there is already evidence that we need separate lists. We have
two populations that need to be kept apart:
1. People who are so sick of answering the same questions time after
time that they are unlikely to exercise patience, tact, and diplomacy
when faced with them yet again on their working mailing list.
2. People who think their questions about D&I are new and would like
them answered.
We really need to get Group 2 into a mailing list that Group 1 can
ignore. People like me who are relatively new to this can handle Group 2
more gently, which may help the politics in the long term.
Here are a couple of alternative names:
diversity-doing (we are supposed to be a do-ocracy, so doing something
about diversity should be OK)
diversity-working-group (specifically for the committee and those of us
who are trying to help them by doing some of the work).
On 5/13/2019 11:53 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> -0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
>
> -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D&I means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action" will reinforce this assumption.
>
> Ross
>
> ________________________________
> From: Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>
> I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> appropriate mailing list.
>
> Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
>
>
> On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
>> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
>> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
>> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
>> to accomplish
>>
>> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
>> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
>> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>>
>> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
>> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
>> we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
>> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>>> To: diversity@apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>>
>>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>>> and this one is not too large.
>>>
>>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>>> others aware of what's going on.
>>>
>>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>>
>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 8:45 PM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree with Naomi that there are two "personas" who might be interested in
> our work
>
> A) the ones who want to learn
> B) the ones championing work
>
Also hopefully people in A move to B - perhaps a good reason for a single
list. I'm definitely need to learn bu I believe absolutely in D&I. Also,
lets see if theres a troll problem first because perhaps it wont turn out
to be a big issue.
Niall "who just joined the diversity list" Pemberton
>
> For A) I'd suggest we publish a FAQs in the wiki as Joan suggested for now.
>
> I'm a +1 for Patricia to start curating the FAQ content and publishing it
> in the wiki.
>
> I'm a -0 on creating a new list for now, we don't have traction yet to do
> this. When we start to see more topics been discussed we can open spaces as
> needed.
>
> I see the point of avoiding trolls, but running away from them or removing
> them to another space is not yet the fight I choose to fight. I rather give
> us the time to deal with them publicly to set the tone of what discussions
> we want and can have.
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid>
> *Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 1:53 PM
> *To: *diversity@apache.org
>
> -0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
> >
> > -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D&I
> > means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This
> > creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action" will reinforce
> > this assumption.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> > To: diversity@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >
> > I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> > waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> > names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> > questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> > diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> > appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> > diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> > diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
> >
> >
> > On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> > > I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to
> address
> > > here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to
> > see
> > > a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> > > to accomplish
> > >
> > > in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
> > able
> > > to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it
> to
> > > diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
> > >
> > > we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> > > environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> > much
> > > we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> > > <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > >> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> > >> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> > >> To: diversity@apache.org
> > >> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> > >>
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> wrote:
> > >>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> > >>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> > >>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
> > >>
> > >> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> > >> and this one is not too large.
> > >>
> > >> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> > >> others aware of what's going on.
> > >>
> > >> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> > >> lists" message that I relayed at
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3D&reserved=0
> > >>
> > >> -Bertrand
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Hi everyone,
I agree with Naomi that there are two "personas" who might be interested in
our work
A) the ones who want to learn
B) the ones championing work
For A) I'd suggest we publish a FAQs in the wiki as Joan suggested for now.
I'm a +1 for Patricia to start curating the FAQ content and publishing it
in the wiki.
I'm a -0 on creating a new list for now, we don't have traction yet to do
this. When we start to see more topics been discussed we can open spaces as
needed.
I see the point of avoiding trolls, but running away from them or removing
them to another space is not yet the fight I choose to fight. I rather give
us the time to deal with them publicly to set the tone of what discussions
we want and can have.
*From: *Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid>
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 1:53 PM
*To: *diversity@apache.org
-0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
>
> -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D&I
> means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This
> creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action" will reinforce
> this assumption.
>
> Ross
>
> ________________________________
> From: Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>
> I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> appropriate mailing list.
>
> Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
>
>
> On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> > I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> > here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to
> see
> > a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> > to accomplish
> >
> > in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
> able
> > to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> > diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
> >
> > we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> > environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> much
> > we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> > <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> >> To: diversity@apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> >>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> >>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> >>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
> >>
> >> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> >> and this one is not too large.
> >>
> >> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> >> others aware of what's going on.
> >>
> >> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> >> lists" message that I relayed at
> >>
> >>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
-0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
-1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D&I means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action" will reinforce this assumption.
Ross
________________________________
From: Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
appropriate mailing list.
Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> to accomplish
>
> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>
> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
> we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>> To: diversity@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>
>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>> and this one is not too large.
>>
>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>> others aware of what's going on.
>>
>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>
>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
appropriate mailing list.
Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> to accomplish
>
> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>
> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
> we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>> To: diversity@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>
>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>> and this one is not too large.
>>
>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>> others aware of what's going on.
>>
>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>
>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
to accomplish
in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
<Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> > mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>
> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> and this one is not too large.
>
> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> others aware of what's going on.
>
> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> lists" message that I relayed at
>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3D&reserved=0
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
+1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
________________________________
From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Hi,
On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
and this one is not too large.
We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
others aware of what's going on.
There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
lists" message that I relayed at
https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3D&reserved=0
-Bertrand
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
and this one is not too large.
We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
others aware of what's going on.
There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
lists" message that I relayed at
https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/
-Bertrand
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by William A Rowe Jr <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
That seems like a good point to raise with those web resource admins. They
are outside of the ASF's purview?
We can certainly have linking guidelines from D&I, but in licensing and
other issues, we've observed that a friendly note can go a long ways.
On Sat, May 18, 2019, 22:32 Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> Among the D&I resources I've examined so far, trackers seem to be rare.
>
> On 5/18/2019 8:20 PM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
> > It doesn't seem to be our concern... Most pages have trackers but ours do
> > not. If we add disclaimer/warnings to all our links, we need to do that
> on
> > PMC resource pointer pages, even sponsor links.
> >
> > This is a web client problem, and there are resources to deal with it for
> > those concerned, IMO
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 18, 2019, 13:06 Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> >
> >> perhaps we could add an informative note about the trackers? I expect
> this
> >> is an issue that will pertain to multiple sites so it might be
> beneficial
> >> if we develop a standard way of dealing with this without having to omit
> >> the resource
> >>
> >> On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 19:02, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
> >>>> "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
> >>>> derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
> >>>> think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
> >>>> section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
> >>>> be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
> >>>> by the determined derailer.
> >>> ...
> >>>> * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
> >>>
> >>> According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11
> trackers.
> >>> Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
Among the D&I resources I've examined so far, trackers seem to be rare.
On 5/18/2019 8:20 PM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
> It doesn't seem to be our concern... Most pages have trackers but ours do
> not. If we add disclaimer/warnings to all our links, we need to do that on
> PMC resource pointer pages, even sponsor links.
>
> This is a web client problem, and there are resources to deal with it for
> those concerned, IMO
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2019, 13:06 Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>
>> perhaps we could add an informative note about the trackers? I expect this
>> is an issue that will pertain to multiple sites so it might be beneficial
>> if we develop a standard way of dealing with this without having to omit
>> the resource
>>
>> On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 19:02, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>>>> "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>>>> derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>>>> think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>>>> section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>>>> be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>>>> by the determined derailer.
>>> ...
>>>> * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>>>
>>> According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11 trackers.
>>> Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by William A Rowe Jr <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
It doesn't seem to be our concern... Most pages have trackers but ours do
not. If we add disclaimer/warnings to all our links, we need to do that on
PMC resource pointer pages, even sponsor links.
This is a web client problem, and there are resources to deal with it for
those concerned, IMO
On Sat, May 18, 2019, 13:06 Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> perhaps we could add an informative note about the trackers? I expect this
> is an issue that will pertain to multiple sites so it might be beneficial
> if we develop a standard way of dealing with this without having to omit
> the resource
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 19:02, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...
> > > * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
> > > "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
> > > derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
> > > think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
> > > section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
> > > be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
> > > by the determined derailer.
> > ...
> > > * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
> >
> > According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11 trackers.
> > Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
perhaps we could add an informative note about the trackers? I expect this
is an issue that will pertain to multiple sites so it might be beneficial
if we develop a standard way of dealing with this without having to omit
the resource
On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 19:02, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...
> > * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
> > "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
> > derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
> > think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
> > section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
> > be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
> > by the determined derailer.
> ...
> > * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>
> According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11 trackers.
> Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
And for clarity I was not accusing you of cookie licking :D Thank you
for taking the initiative with the wiki FAQ!
-Joan
On 2019-05-21 17:30, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> In that connection, I want to make sure people understand I do not want
> to stop other people from editing the Resources or FAQ pages. I will
> publish often enough that I can easily merge any changes I've made since
> the last publish. I just wanted to get things started ASAP. Think of me
> as having cut a corner off the cookie using a clean knife, so that what
> remains on the tray is perfectly edible.
>
> On 5/21/2019 10:27 AM, Joan Touzet wrote:
>> I'll admit I mostly link it because of this topic:
>>
>> https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Cookie_Licking
>>
>> which is a real thing that kills communities quickly. Though, their
>> other anti-pattern pages are good, too.
>>
>> There's an amazing number of trackers on the web these days. I don't
>> think we should exclude access because of them, or warn about them
>> either. (That'd directly rule out most of the top 100 websites, I
>> believe...)
>>
>> If you're concerned about trackers (as I am), you'll already have
>> multiple browser plugins installed to block them. But I won't block it
>> if you want to put a warning on the wiki page - consider this a -0 on a
>> warning? :)
>>
>> -Joan "what was life like before ASF-style numerical voting?" Touzet
>>
>> On 2019-05-18 13:02, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>>>> "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>>>> derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>>>> think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>>>> section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>>>> be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>>>> by the determined derailer.
>>> ...
>>>> * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>>>
>>> According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11
>>> trackers. Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the
>>> Resources page?
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
In that connection, I want to make sure people understand I do not want
to stop other people from editing the Resources or FAQ pages. I will
publish often enough that I can easily merge any changes I've made since
the last publish. I just wanted to get things started ASAP. Think of me
as having cut a corner off the cookie using a clean knife, so that what
remains on the tray is perfectly edible.
On 5/21/2019 10:27 AM, Joan Touzet wrote:
> I'll admit I mostly link it because of this topic:
>
> https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Cookie_Licking
>
> which is a real thing that kills communities quickly. Though, their
> other anti-pattern pages are good, too.
>
> There's an amazing number of trackers on the web these days. I don't
> think we should exclude access because of them, or warn about them
> either. (That'd directly rule out most of the top 100 websites, I
> believe...)
>
> If you're concerned about trackers (as I am), you'll already have
> multiple browser plugins installed to block them. But I won't block it
> if you want to put a warning on the wiki page - consider this a -0 on a
> warning? :)
>
> -Joan "what was life like before ASF-style numerical voting?" Touzet
>
> On 2019-05-18 13:02, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...
>>> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>>> "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>>> derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>>> think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>>> section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>>> be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>>> by the determined derailer.
>> ...
>>> * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>>
>> According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11 trackers. Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
I'll admit I mostly link it because of this topic:
https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Cookie_Licking
which is a real thing that kills communities quickly. Though, their
other anti-pattern pages are good, too.
There's an amazing number of trackers on the web these days. I don't
think we should exclude access because of them, or warn about them
either. (That'd directly rule out most of the top 100 websites, I
believe...)
If you're concerned about trackers (as I am), you'll already have
multiple browser plugins installed to block them. But I won't block it
if you want to put a warning on the wiki page - consider this a -0 on a
warning? :)
-Joan "what was life like before ASF-style numerical voting?" Touzet
On 2019-05-18 13:02, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>
>
> On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...
>> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>> "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>> derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>> think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>> section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>> be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>> by the determined derailer.
> ...
>> * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>
> According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11 trackers. Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@apache.org>.
On 2019/05/13 16:43:11, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
...
> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
> "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
> derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
> think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
> section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
> be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
> by the determined derailer.
...
> * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
According to the Ghostery Firefox plug-in, this page carries 11 trackers. Do you feel strongly that it should be included in the Resources page?
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Couple of thoughts - sorry for being brief, and really not trying to
bikeshed here:
* We need someone to shepherd this, thank you Patricia for volunteering!
Generally my opinion is that the work of building the content should
fall to those who have learned, not the explainers, who are the ones
burdened with the heaviest emotional load dealing with the concern
trolls. Naomi pointed this out in another thread. To that end I saw
what looked like volunteers in Rich and/or Ross. ;)
* A protected page on our wiki would be a good place to house this. Or,
something under git where we can do pull requests and reviews on
GitHub. The problem with the latter is the potential as a vector for
drive-by vandalism and abuse. Either way, it should be a sub-set of
pages or resources so their content doesn't overwhelm needs of our
wiki/git repos for our actual business.
* Having Ezmlm point to the wiki / git page would be a good idea. I'd
worry about putting the full text into the autoresponse from
diversity-help; it might feel like being brow-beaten for a newcomer.
* Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
"If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
by the determined derailer.
* https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
* https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
*
https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1
*
http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf
*
https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/
-Joan "will there ever be a last time to answer some questions" Touzet
On 2019-05-13 10:35, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I’m not sure how the technical feature works, but mailing lists can set up
> an FAQ. Ezmlm allows you to send a message to diversity-help@apache.org
> which could theoretically be used here.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 08:18, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be
>> improved.
>>
>> On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>> I think this is a great idea
>>>
>>> I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
>>> name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
>>> other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
>>> education"
>>>
>>> perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
>>> discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in
>> contrast
>>> with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity
>> effort
>>> at Apache)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
>>>> including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
>>>> with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
>>>> Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
>>>> sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
>>>> for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
>>>> do-ocracy culture.
>>>>
>>>> When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
>>>> need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
>>>> simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
>>>> ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
>>>> and considered it.
>>>>
>>>> Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
>>>> on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
>>>> self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
>>>>
>>>> As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
>>>> will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
>>>> in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
>>>> technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
>>>> technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
>>>> anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
>>>> of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
>>>> to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
>>>> answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
>>>> contribute their experience.
>>>>
>>>> I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
>>>> People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
>>>> questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
>>>> others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> https://www.avg.com
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
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Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
I’m not sure how the technical feature works, but mailing lists can set up
an FAQ. Ezmlm allows you to send a message to diversity-help@apache.org
which could theoretically be used here.
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 08:18, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be
> improved.
>
> On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> > I think this is a great idea
> >
> > I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
> > name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
> > other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
> > education"
> >
> > perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
> > discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in
> contrast
> > with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity
> effort
> > at Apache)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> >
> >> From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
> >> including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
> >> with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
> >> Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
> >> sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
> >> for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
> >> do-ocracy culture.
> >>
> >> When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
> >> need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
> >> simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
> >> ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
> >> and considered it.
> >>
> >> Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
> >> on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
> >> self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
> >>
> >> As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
> >> will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
> >> in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
> >> technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
> >> technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
> >> anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
> >> of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
> >> to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
> >> answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
> >> contribute their experience.
> >>
> >> I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> >> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> >> mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
> >> People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
> >> questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
> >> others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be
improved.
On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> I think this is a great idea
>
> I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
> name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
> other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
> education"
>
> perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
> discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in contrast
> with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity effort
> at Apache)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
>> including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
>> with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
>> Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
>> sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
>> for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
>> do-ocracy culture.
>>
>> When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
>> need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
>> simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
>> ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
>> and considered it.
>>
>> Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
>> on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
>> self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
>>
>> As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
>> will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
>> in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
>> technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
>> technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
>> anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
>> of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
>> to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
>> answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
>> contribute their experience.
>>
>> I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
>> People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
>> questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
>> others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>
---
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: FAQ and education mailing list
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
I think this is a great idea
I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
education"
perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in contrast
with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity effort
at Apache)
On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
> including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
> with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
> Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
> sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
> for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
> do-ocracy culture.
>
> When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
> need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
> simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
> ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
> and considered it.
>
> Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
> on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
> self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
>
> As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
> will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
> in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
> technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
> technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
> anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
>
> Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
> of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
> to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
> answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
> contribute their experience.
>
> I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
> People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
> questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
> others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>