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Posted to marketing@openoffice.apache.org by Peter Hagen <pe...@willow-media.nl> on 2014/09/21 10:05:45 UTC
unofficial?
Hello,
a friend of mine put out a warning on Facebook about a website that is selling Open Office. So I thought it would be smart to inform you also. Its the following website:
http://www.officebestellen.nl/
someone already looked up the Chamber of Commerce number and it seems to be fake also.
With kind regards,
Peter Hagen
Re: unofficial?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> OK, but what is the permissible use of AOO?
> Can I make and publish a screenshot of the startup window of AOO? Is this a legal
> Screenshot:
> http://i.computer-bild.de/imgs/5/7/2/2/8/8/0/Neue-Version-von-OpenOffice-4-1-kommt
> -mit-einigen-neuen-Funktionen-Das-1024x576-651d0e41862ce7fc.jpg
I wouldn't object to it, even though, as everybody knows, I'm not a
lawyer. Our policy (see link I sent) already covers this case, including
screenshots containing a trademark.
> And if I may, can I just (unedited!) Publish parts of the screenshots?
> And if I may, why then not just the section of the screenshots, the only logo
> includes?
The only possible answer for similar cases is "it depends". And it is a
legitimate answer. There is a boundary between being fair (by the way,
there is also the so-called "nominative use" that comes into play here)
and being "too smart". And, as it happens for laws, interpretation can
be controversial, otherwise all lawyers would be unemployed! So this
cases can be addressed only when the concrete scenario occurs.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 3:10 PM
> To: marketing@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: unofficial?
>
> Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> > when I say the icons are _part of the software_, I mean the
> physical software.
> > This is a contrast to the name, because the name is the
> _name_ of the software,
> > _not part_ of the physical software.
>
> I'm not a lawyer, of course. But there is a difference
> between what the
> license allows to do with the code and what the trademark
> policy says.
Yes
> Or, to state it correctly: the Apache License
> http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html section 6
> says that you
> cannot use trademarks as you wish
Yes
> and that you need explicit
> permission
> for certain uses. Trademarks, for OpenOffice, include the
> name and the
> gulls logo.
OK, but what is the permissible use of AOO?
Can I make and publish a screenshot of the startup window of AOO? Is this a legal
Screenshot:
http://i.computer-bild.de/imgs/5/7/2/2/8/8/0/Neue-Version-von-OpenOffice-4-1-kommt
-mit-einigen-neuen-Funktionen-Das-1024x576-651d0e41862ce7fc.jpg
And if I may, can I just (unedited!) Publish parts of the screenshots?
And if I may, why then not just the section of the screenshots, the only logo
includes?
> You can find examples of the trademark policy here:
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#titlefeather ; so for
> example if someone writes a book about an Apache product he cannot
> include the Apache feather image in the cover. This is an extreme
> example; in general, one should ask for permission on a case-by-case
> basis. You can imagine that we will allow (and, even if not asked,
> tolerate) that someone uses our trademarks to support the
> project, while
> we will deny a request by someone who wants to sell for 99
> EUR a thing
> named "Apache OpenOffice Professional" consisting in Apache
> OpenOffice
> with some malware added and wants to advertise it using the official
> images and make it look like as if it was a "premium" version
> produced
> by the OpenOffice project. We actively enforce trademarks in order to
> protect our users and the reputation of OpenOffice.
*Absolutely clear* to me, but the discussion here is not the real issue.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> when I say the icons are _part of the software_, I mean the physical software.
> This is a contrast to the name, because the name is the _name_ of the software,
> _not part_ of the physical software.
I'm not a lawyer, of course. But there is a difference between what the
license allows to do with the code and what the trademark policy says.
Or, to state it correctly: the Apache License
http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html section 6 says that you
cannot use trademarks as you wish and that you need explicit permission
for certain uses. Trademarks, for OpenOffice, include the name and the
gulls logo.
You can find examples of the trademark policy here:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#titlefeather ; so for
example if someone writes a book about an Apache product he cannot
include the Apache feather image in the cover. This is an extreme
example; in general, one should ask for permission on a case-by-case
basis. You can imagine that we will allow (and, even if not asked,
tolerate) that someone uses our trademarks to support the project, while
we will deny a request by someone who wants to sell for 99 EUR a thing
named "Apache OpenOffice Professional" consisting in Apache OpenOffice
with some malware added and wants to advertise it using the official
images and make it look like as if it was a "premium" version produced
by the OpenOffice project. We actively enforce trademarks in order to
protect our users and the reputation of OpenOffice.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Jörg Schmidt [mailto:joesch@j-m-schmidt.de]
> In my view, the icons are part of the software and can be
> used under the Apache
> license. I mean that quite practical because the icons are part of eg
> "soffice.exe", so part of the real software.
Supplement - Please understand me correctly:
when I say the icons are _part of the software_, I mean the physical software.
This is a contrast to the name, because the name is the _name_ of the software,
_not part_ of the physical software.
(If in the physical software of "Apache OpenOffice" is mentioned (for example in
the help file) so that is not the real name but only the reference to the name.)
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>
>> You can buy a copy of Microsoft Windows, but that does not
>> mean you can use
>> the logo on your website.
>
> That is clear, but Microsoft is an interesting keyword regarding Licensing issues.
>
> Microsoft claims for himself as the right of the screenshots MS software may only be used if they are used for illustration of an article does not attempt to negatively portray the MS software. [*]
>
> I think these or similar conditions should not be an option for free software, so I'm unsure whether it may be unlawful to use the (unedited!) Part of a screenshot of AOO on a website.
>
The PMC receives regular requests from publishers asking permission to
use screen shots from AOO.
-Rob
>
> [*]
> Sorry, I have no source at hand, but the whole thing is true for MS Office 2000 in the United States. We have discussed a few years ago in the OOo community and it has remained in my mind.
>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
>
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> You can buy a copy of Microsoft Windows, but that does not
> mean you can use
> the logo on your website.
That is clear, but Microsoft is an interesting keyword regarding Licensing issues.
Microsoft claims for himself as the right of the screenshots MS software may only be used if they are used for illustration of an article does not attempt to negatively portray the MS software. [*]
I think these or similar conditions should not be an option for free software, so I'm unsure whether it may be unlawful to use the (unedited!) Part of a screenshot of AOO on a website.
[*]
Sorry, I have no source at hand, but the whole thing is true for MS Office 2000 in the United States. We have discussed a few years ago in the OOo community and it has remained in my mind.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sunday, September 21, 2014, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org <javascript:;>]
>
> > I can't share details, but this has been under investigation for some
> > months (yes, trademark issues take long, unfortunately, especially
> > against "smart" guys). What Joerg writes remains mostly
> > correct: it is
> > possible to resell unmodified copies of virtually all free
> > software. But
> > this site is not allowed to use our trademarks, which include
> > the icons
> > with gulls.
>
> Is this a real problem? I mean that one of the icons, can not use it freely
> _because of the gulls_?
>
> In my view, the icons are part of the software and can be used under the
> Apache
> license. I mean that quite practical because the icons are part of eg
> "soffice.exe", so part of the real software.
>
>
>
You can buy a copy of Microsoft Windows, but that does not mean you can use
the logo on your website.
The permission to use the software and copy and distribute it is distinct
from permission to use the trademarks in a commercial way. The Apache
license does not give permission to use the trademarks in that way.
-Rob
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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> <javascript:;>
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>
>
Re: unofficial?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> I can't share details, but this has been under investigation for some
> months (yes, trademark issues take long, unfortunately, especially
> against "smart" guys). What Joerg writes remains mostly
> correct: it is
> possible to resell unmodified copies of virtually all free
> software. But
> this site is not allowed to use our trademarks, which include
> the icons
> with gulls.
Is this a real problem? I mean that one of the icons, can not use it freely
_because of the gulls_?
In my view, the icons are part of the software and can be used under the Apache
license. I mean that quite practical because the icons are part of eg
"soffice.exe", so part of the real software.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 21/09/2014 Jorg Schmidt wrote:
>> From: Peter Hagen [mailto:peter@willow-media.nl]
>> http://www.officebestellen.nl/
>> someone already looked up the Chamber of Commerce number and
>> it seems to be fake also.
> Thank you, but I can see no difficulty, because it is neither prohibited
> OpenOffice for sale, nor the web site provides a reference to a license violation.
> Does anyone here have a different opinion?
I can't share details, but this has been under investigation for some
months (yes, trademark issues take long, unfortunately, especially
against "smart" guys). What Joerg writes remains mostly correct: it is
possible to resell unmodified copies of virtually all free software. But
this site is not allowed to use our trademarks, which include the icons
with gulls.
Note that since this company is (obviously) totally unaffiliated with
the OpenOffice project we have no idea of what they are selling: it
could be OpenOffice, or OpenOffice with removed/added functionality, or
OpenOffice plus some spyware/malware, or something unrelated to
OpenOffice, or whatever.
> (For example, you can find also on Ebay lots of offers for OpenOffice.) ...
Yes, but for those we ask that they respect the guidelines set in
http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/ (and again, if everybody on the
market stuck to the rules life would be much easier, but reality is
different).
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: unofficial?
Posted by Jorg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> From: Peter Hagen [mailto:peter@willow-media.nl]
> a friend of mine put out a warning on Facebook about a
> website that is selling Open Office. So I thought it would be
> smart to inform you also. Its the following website:
>
> http://www.officebestellen.nl/
>
> someone already looked up the Chamber of Commerce number and
> it seems to be fake also.
Thank you, but I can see no difficulty, because it is neither prohibited
OpenOffice for sale, nor the web site provides a reference to a license violation.
(For example, you can find also on Ebay lots of offers for OpenOffice.)
It is somewhat unusual, this is the LGPL license specified, but even that is not a
license violation because the Apache license allows these to licensing.
Does anyone here have a different opinion?
Greetings,
Jorg
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