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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> on 2012/11/22 08:51:47 UTC
Rushing into Git
Hi,
At least one vital service (the website) is more than just a SVN repo.
A post-commit hook activates the 'buildbot' on every commit. How will
this be 'translated' when the Git move happens? Do we have access to
the buildbot outside the SVN infrastructure?
Do we know which other services (commit emails, access control etc.)
are not (easily) transferred to a Git workflow
If not, a big -1 on the move at this time, as the Apache organisation
obviously just isn't ready to support - technically, legally and
certainly not 'in spirit' - Git as an alternative to Subversion.
EdB
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Great Omar! ;)
can you please vote the ticket here so we can get as much relevance as
possible to make this happen?
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ViewVoters!default.jspa?id=12617235
Thanks!
Carlos
2012/11/22 Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>
>
> Well Carlos, since you beat me to it and have already submitted a ticket
> you can count on me for volunteering my time to Apache INFRA in whatever
> they request from us. I will expedite my Python reading so I can be
> prepared to help in whatever INFRA needs from us.
>
> -omar
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Carlos Rovira <
carlos.rovira@codeoscopic.com> wrote:
> Hi Erik,
>
> let's see how infra respond to the ticket generated
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-5549 (Please all vote to make
> it happen)
>
> Sincerily, this migration should be supported by Apache since is what
> people in this project wants and infra is about to ease things to make code
> flow.
>
> My main task here right now is make it happen, and I will spend lots of
> cycles chasing this ticket with infra. I will make as much as I can since I
> see this a smart movement for this project since it will imply make it more
> social and modern. For me SCM is critical in this project and SVN is a tool
> of the past that only hampers the project.
>
> I'd want to be in a more positive mind about Infra's thinking and that they
> are the support part in this foundation. They can have certain problems and
> lack of resources to make this happen since other thinking will be really
> very bad to what Apache represents.
>
> For me the fact is that there's lots of projects in Git right now as you
> could see in [1] and others projects was successful making the same steps
> we are doing.
>
> [1] https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf
>
> My advice is that we don't loose time discussing it and let's see how
> things evolve with that infra ticket, and see if they stablish
> communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have into
> account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
> point in time to make the switch.
>
> Thanks
>
>
Well Carlos, since you beat me to it and have already submitted a ticket
you can count on me for volunteering my time to Apache INFRA in whatever
they request from us. I will expedite my Python reading so I can be
prepared to help in whatever INFRA needs from us.
-omar
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Well, there are a 'few' things the project and it's contributors need
to do themselves after graduation:
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#project-first-steps
EdB
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Omar Gonzalez
<om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>
>> > communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have into
>> > account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
>> > point in time to make the switch.
>>
>> In my opinion combining the two moves would be, euphemistically
>> speaking, a sub-optimal course of action.
>>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
> I'd rather hear that from Apache INFRA, since they're the ones that need to
> perform the work on this issue and any commentary from us is merely
> speculation.
>
> I'm pretty certain that if trying to combine both moves is a big problem
> for INFRA that they will not be shy in letting us know so.
>
> -omar
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> > communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have into
> > account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
> > point in time to make the switch.
>
> In my opinion combining the two moves would be, euphemistically
> speaking, a sub-optimal course of action.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
I'd rather hear that from Apache INFRA, since they're the ones that need to
perform the work on this issue and any commentary from us is merely
speculation.
I'm pretty certain that if trying to combine both moves is a big problem
for INFRA that they will not be shy in letting us know so.
-omar
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Ok, I thought it could entail less work for infra, but if it's the opposite
it's clear that it's not recomendable. I just delete my comment in the
ticket about the graduation.
2012/11/22 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>
> wrote:
> >> communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have
> into
> >> account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
> >> point in time to make the switch.
> >
> > In my opinion combining the two moves would be, euphemistically
> > speaking, a sub-optimal course of action....
>
> I agree - the move to top-level project entails some (simple but
> important) reorganization in svn, it's probably not a good idea to
> start a move to Git at the same time, better do that right after
> graduation IMO if that's what the new PMC wants.
>
> -Bertrand
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>> communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have into
>> account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
>> point in time to make the switch.
>
> In my opinion combining the two moves would be, euphemistically
> speaking, a sub-optimal course of action....
I agree - the move to top-level project entails some (simple but
important) reorganization in svn, it's probably not a good idea to
start a move to Git at the same time, better do that right after
graduation IMO if that's what the new PMC wants.
-Bertrand
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
> communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have into
> account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
> point in time to make the switch.
In my opinion combining the two moves would be, euphemistically
speaking, a sub-optimal course of action.
EdB
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Hi Erik,
let's see how infra respond to the ticket generated
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-5549 (Please all vote to make
it happen)
Sincerily, this migration should be supported by Apache since is what
people in this project wants and infra is about to ease things to make code
flow.
My main task here right now is make it happen, and I will spend lots of
cycles chasing this ticket with infra. I will make as much as I can since I
see this a smart movement for this project since it will imply make it more
social and modern. For me SCM is critical in this project and SVN is a tool
of the past that only hampers the project.
I'd want to be in a more positive mind about Infra's thinking and that they
are the support part in this foundation. They can have certain problems and
lack of resources to make this happen since other thinking will be really
very bad to what Apache represents.
For me the fact is that there's lots of projects in Git right now as you
could see in [1] and others projects was successful making the same steps
we are doing.
[1] https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf
My advice is that we don't loose time discussing it and let's see how
things evolve with that infra ticket, and see if they stablish
communitcation to give us feedback of the next steps. We should have into
account that we have a move out of incubation and that should be a great
point in time to make the switch.
Thanks
2012/11/22 Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>
> Omar,
>
> >> From the threads here and on the private list I get the feeling that
> >> at least one of our mentors has reservations about the legal standing
> >> of Git repos in relation to Apache.org.
> >
> >
> > Those concerns have been expressed before, during, and after the vote. It
> > obviously did not deter either the community or the PPMC.
> >
>
> Actually, looking closer at the results, the vote was split 8 - 8
> between moving to Git and keep using SVN (for now). Only, the way the
> vote was called fragmented the 'against Git' votes. Also of note is
> that ALL THREE of the mentors thought it wisest to stay with SVN (for
> now). But I don't want to redo the vote, I just don't want the project
> to rush into this without thinking about the "in real life"
> consequences.
>
> > Infra to support Apache projects. I would not be so concerned.
>
> Well, I am concerned, and I have been since the time of the vote. But
> now I am PPMC and have a responsibility to point out things that might
> harm the project. Moving a project as complex as this to another SCM
> is not a trivial thing and what I'm reading is that a few very vocal
> people want this, but none of them is willing to volunteer with INFRA
> to support this. That worries me and I have yet to be convinced that
> this project can handle a move this big, at this time.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> I'm not convinced at all this will work out well for the project, with
> the graduation coming up soon (which will mean moving and changing a
> lot of stuff in SVN and elsewhere) and all. But I'll shut up about
> this (for now).
>
Like I said earlier, I don't think this will affect graduation. We could
have used the graduation as an opportunity to request from Apache INFRA
that the move to Git happen now to avoid having to go through the process
again. However, I don't think its wise to complicate the graduation further
by making that request now. In my talks with Apache INFRA they made it
clear they would like more Python devs to help facilitate the bug fixing in
the Apache Git admin tool and to support projects moving to Git.
>
> Maybe you can do me (and other doubters and SVN aficionados) and write
> up the current status of the move, the planned actions for the move
> and the implications of the move for contributors, committers and the
> project in general?
>
> Thanks,
>
> EdB
>
The status of the move is that we need someone proficient in Python to
volunteer so that we may submit a request for our read/write Apache Git
repo. I purchased a Python book last week and will have two weeks off in
December during which I plan on going through that book some more and start
looking at trying to start to submit patches for the git admin tool. If we
could find another Python dev before I can become useful on this front then
that would be great.
Once we have someone positioned for that we can start the discussion with
Apache INFRA, at which point we can learn more about the planning and
effects of the move on the rest of the committers. I would suggest that at
that point we would examine the workflows that other Apache projects are
already using with their read/write Git repos to apply the workflow we
voted for on Git.
This is why I said this is not going to be rushed into. It is still going
to take some time to get all our ducks lined up, so to speak.
-omar
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
I'm not convinced at all this will work out well for the project, with
the graduation coming up soon (which will mean moving and changing a
lot of stuff in SVN and elsewhere) and all. But I'll shut up about
this (for now).
Maybe you can do me (and other doubters and SVN aficionados) and write
up the current status of the move, the planned actions for the move
and the implications of the move for contributors, committers and the
project in general?
Thanks,
EdB
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Omar Gonzalez
<om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:35 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>
>> Omar,
>>
>> >> From the threads here and on the private list I get the feeling that
>> >> at least one of our mentors has reservations about the legal standing
>> >> of Git repos in relation to Apache.org.
>> >
>> >
>> > Those concerns have been expressed before, during, and after the vote. It
>> > obviously did not deter either the community or the PPMC.
>> >
>>
>> Actually, looking closer at the results, the vote was split 8 - 8
>> between moving to Git and keep using SVN (for now). Only, the way the
>> vote was called fragmented the 'against Git' votes. Also of note is
>> that ALL THREE of the mentors thought it wisest to stay with SVN (for
>> now). But I don't want to redo the vote, I just don't want the project
>> to rush into this without thinking about the "in real life"
>> consequences.
>>
>
> Sorry but you are misrepresenting the vote results to support your argument.
>
> The vote was for 3 options, as you can review here:
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=+list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.flex-dev+VOTE+RESULT#query:%20list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.flex-dev%20VOTE%20RESULT+page:3+mid:ajlskznzec4wqda2+state:results
>
> One option had 3 votes, a second option had 5 votes and the winning option
> had 8, binding votes. You can't simply lump two losing options together to
> formulate an argument against an option that you have a concern about to
> revoke a vote that already happened.
>
> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for this
> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through the
> changes is kind of ludicrous.
>
>
>>
>> > Infra to support Apache projects. I would not be so concerned.
>>
>> Well, I am concerned, and I have been since the time of the vote. But
>> now I am PPMC and have a responsibility to point out things that might
>> harm the project. Moving a project as complex as this to another SCM
>> is not a trivial thing and what I'm reading is that a few very vocal
>> people want this, but none of them is willing to volunteer with INFRA
>> to support this. That worries me and I have yet to be convinced that
>> this project can handle a move this big, at this time.
>>
>> EdB
>>
>
> You're right it is not a trivial thing, thus why we have taken our time
> over the last few months to slowly move things over, starting with getting
> GitHub mirrors in place and trying to find a volunteer for the GIt support.
> I, as well as a few others, have expressed the desire to volunteer for this
> position except I am not yet suited to be effective due to my lack of
> knowledge as a Python developer. On any other front I am willing to spend
> time on this. Regardless, making a move would still be weeks away being
> that we would still have to make a request with Apache INFRA and then we
> would have to wait for a response from them in order to start to formulate
> a migration plan and schedule. This wouldn't happen over night, it would be
> a weeks long process. Nobody is going to be 'rushing' into this, because
> frankly, its not possible under the constraints that we have to run these
> Apache projects under.
>
> -omar
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Nicholas Kwiatkowski <ni...@spoon.as>.
Carlos,
Just a heads up that this week is a major holiday in the USA, so responses
may be slow through next Monday. Many on infra are out of the US.
On Nov 22, 2012 8:27 AM, "Carlos Rovira" <ca...@codeoscopic.com>
wrote:
> Yes :), I'm right now waiting for some response from the infra team, if
> there's no response I will ping back, and continue trying paths until I get
> something. As I say, I think it's a matter of be patience and constant, but
> not throw the towel.
>
> Hopefully Omar, Om, Jose and others will be pushing the effort and this
> will be taken into account by Infra.
>
>
>
> 2012/11/22 Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>
>
> > To be fair, Carlos is working - as hard as the system allows him - to
> > get this done. Credit where credit is due.
> >
> > EdB
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Justin Mclean <justin@classsoftware.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
> > >> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for
> > this
> > >> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing
> through
> > the
> > >> changes is kind of ludicrous.
> > >
> > > Yep we voted for it but I have to say I'm with Erik on this there
> wasn't
> > enough thought about the process (or it's implications) and IMO the vote
> > was called far too early.
> > >
> > > But that being said it was voted upon and we need to move on, 3 months
> > is really far too long without any real progress, I'd like to see the
> > people who voted for it make it happen.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Justin
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ix Multimedia Software
> >
> > Jan Luykenstraat 27
> > 3521 VB Utrecht
> >
> > T. 06-51952295
> > I. www.ixsoftware.nl
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> Director de Tecnología
> M: +34 607 22 60 05
> F: +34 912 35 57 77
> http://www.codeoscopic.com
> http://www.directwriter.es
> http://www.avant2.es
>
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Hi Frédéric,
the motivation behind this movement is "make community", that's open source
works today. Git, Github, and other tools like this are created to make
easy for people to contribute, and things are working in lots of well-known
projects out side here.
Take into account that most people voted for the change because most people
in this project make the switch to Git and prefer Git. So "drastic change"
will not be really accurate since people wanting to stay in svn is minority
as vote results show. There's others that want to try Git as they see all
people talking about it and really doesn't know why Git could be better.
"Infra doesn't feel well with git" is something that we talked about and
could not be real, and only a problem of resources at Infra. If Infra start
with our ticket because they can (or maybe because someone in this project
can help with Git admin) I think they does not matter if we can better
mirroring or real git support, they will end asking us what we really want
to close the ticket.
2012/11/22 Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Why to want a so drastic change if the Infra doesn't feel well with git ?
> Why to switch from svn to git when the only problem is that the git
> mirrors are not updated in time ?
> Why to switch on git when some people prefer to work with svn (it's not my
> case) ?
>
> Rather than switching, wouldn't it be better to discuss with the Infra at
> a better solution for git mirroring ?
>
>
> Fred.
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carlos Rovira
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:27 PM
>
> To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Rushing into Git
>
> Yes :), I'm right now waiting for some response from the infra team, if
> there's no response I will ping back, and continue trying paths until I get
> something. As I say, I think it's a matter of be patience and constant, but
> not throw the towel.
>
> Hopefully Omar, Om, Jose and others will be pushing the effort and this
> will be taken into account by Infra.
>
>
>
> 2012/11/22 Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>
>
> To be fair, Carlos is working - as hard as the system allows him - to
>> get this done. Credit where credit is due.
>>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> >> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
>> >> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for
>> this
>> >> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through
>> the
>> >> changes is kind of ludicrous.
>> >
>> > Yep we voted for it but I have to say I'm with Erik on this there wasn't
>> enough thought about the process (or it's implications) and IMO the vote
>> was called far too early.
>> >
>> > But that being said it was voted upon and we need to move on, 3 months
>> is really far too long without any real progress, I'd like to see the
>> people who voted for it make it happen.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Justin
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> Director de Tecnología
> M: +34 607 22 60 05
> F: +34 912 35 57 77
> http://www.codeoscopic.com
> http://www.directwriter.es
> http://www.avant2.es
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Hi Carlos,
Why to want a so drastic change if the Infra doesn't feel well with git ?
Why to switch from svn to git when the only problem is that the git mirrors
are not updated in time ?
Why to switch on git when some people prefer to work with svn (it's not my
case) ?
Rather than switching, wouldn't it be better to discuss with the Infra at a
better solution for git mirroring ?
Fred.
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Carlos Rovira
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:27 PM
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Rushing into Git
Yes :), I'm right now waiting for some response from the infra team, if
there's no response I will ping back, and continue trying paths until I get
something. As I say, I think it's a matter of be patience and constant, but
not throw the towel.
Hopefully Omar, Om, Jose and others will be pushing the effort and this
will be taken into account by Infra.
2012/11/22 Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>
> To be fair, Carlos is working - as hard as the system allows him - to
> get this done. Credit where credit is due.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
> >> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for
> this
> >> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through
> the
> >> changes is kind of ludicrous.
> >
> > Yep we voted for it but I have to say I'm with Erik on this there wasn't
> enough thought about the process (or it's implications) and IMO the vote
> was called far too early.
> >
> > But that being said it was voted upon and we need to move on, 3 months
> is really far too long without any real progress, I'd like to see the
> people who voted for it make it happen.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justin
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Yes :), I'm right now waiting for some response from the infra team, if
there's no response I will ping back, and continue trying paths until I get
something. As I say, I think it's a matter of be patience and constant, but
not throw the towel.
Hopefully Omar, Om, Jose and others will be pushing the effort and this
will be taken into account by Infra.
2012/11/22 Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>
> To be fair, Carlos is working - as hard as the system allows him - to
> get this done. Credit where credit is due.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
> >> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for
> this
> >> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through
> the
> >> changes is kind of ludicrous.
> >
> > Yep we voted for it but I have to say I'm with Erik on this there wasn't
> enough thought about the process (or it's implications) and IMO the vote
> was called far too early.
> >
> > But that being said it was voted upon and we need to move on, 3 months
> is really far too long without any real progress, I'd like to see the
> people who voted for it make it happen.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justin
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
To be fair, Carlos is working - as hard as the system allows him - to
get this done. Credit where credit is due.
EdB
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
>> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for this
>> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through the
>> changes is kind of ludicrous.
>
> Yep we voted for it but I have to say I'm with Erik on this there wasn't enough thought about the process (or it's implications) and IMO the vote was called far too early.
>
> But that being said it was voted upon and we need to move on, 3 months is really far too long without any real progress, I'd like to see the people who voted for it make it happen.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
> without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for this
> on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through the
> changes is kind of ludicrous.
Yep we voted for it but I have to say I'm with Erik on this there wasn't enough thought about the process (or it's implications) and IMO the vote was called far too early.
But that being said it was voted upon and we need to move on, 3 months is really far too long without any real progress, I'd like to see the people who voted for it make it happen.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:35 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> Omar,
>
> >> From the threads here and on the private list I get the feeling that
> >> at least one of our mentors has reservations about the legal standing
> >> of Git repos in relation to Apache.org.
> >
> >
> > Those concerns have been expressed before, during, and after the vote. It
> > obviously did not deter either the community or the PPMC.
> >
>
> Actually, looking closer at the results, the vote was split 8 - 8
> between moving to Git and keep using SVN (for now). Only, the way the
> vote was called fragmented the 'against Git' votes. Also of note is
> that ALL THREE of the mentors thought it wisest to stay with SVN (for
> now). But I don't want to redo the vote, I just don't want the project
> to rush into this without thinking about the "in real life"
> consequences.
>
Sorry but you are misrepresenting the vote results to support your argument.
The vote was for 3 options, as you can review here:
http://markmail.org/search/?q=+list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.flex-dev+VOTE+RESULT#query:%20list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.flex-dev%20VOTE%20RESULT+page:3+mid:ajlskznzec4wqda2+state:results
One option had 3 votes, a second option had 5 votes and the winning option
had 8, binding votes. You can't simply lump two losing options together to
formulate an argument against an option that you have a concern about to
revoke a vote that already happened.
Furthermore, I would hardly say that we are about to "rush into this
without thinking about the 'in real life' consequences". We voted for this
on 8/15, that was just over 3 months ago. To say we are rushing through the
changes is kind of ludicrous.
>
> > Infra to support Apache projects. I would not be so concerned.
>
> Well, I am concerned, and I have been since the time of the vote. But
> now I am PPMC and have a responsibility to point out things that might
> harm the project. Moving a project as complex as this to another SCM
> is not a trivial thing and what I'm reading is that a few very vocal
> people want this, but none of them is willing to volunteer with INFRA
> to support this. That worries me and I have yet to be convinced that
> this project can handle a move this big, at this time.
>
> EdB
>
You're right it is not a trivial thing, thus why we have taken our time
over the last few months to slowly move things over, starting with getting
GitHub mirrors in place and trying to find a volunteer for the GIt support.
I, as well as a few others, have expressed the desire to volunteer for this
position except I am not yet suited to be effective due to my lack of
knowledge as a Python developer. On any other front I am willing to spend
time on this. Regardless, making a move would still be weeks away being
that we would still have to make a request with Apache INFRA and then we
would have to wait for a response from them in order to start to formulate
a migration plan and schedule. This wouldn't happen over night, it would be
a weeks long process. Nobody is going to be 'rushing' into this, because
frankly, its not possible under the constraints that we have to run these
Apache projects under.
-omar
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Nicholas Kwiatkowski <ni...@spoon.as> wrote:
> ...Those 46 repos are read only... They do not sync back to the main project.
> I think even our project is listed there...
You are confusing https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf - Git repos
for projects that use Git @asf as their main repository
with http://git.apache.org/ which lists read-only mirrors
-Bertrand
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Nicholas,
That's not true. I'm referring to this URL:
http://flume.apache.org/source.html
We are not listed there. And all projects there has full Git apache support
(read/write)
i.e: Apache Flume -> http://flume.apache.org/source.html
2012/11/22 Nicholas Kwiatkowski <ni...@spoon.as>
>
> Those 46 repos are read only... They do not sync back to the main project.
> I think even our project is listed there...
>
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Nicholas Kwiatkowski <ni...@spoon.as>.
Carlos,
Those 46 repos are read only... They do not sync back to the main project.
I think even our project is listed there...
On Nov 22, 2012 5:33 AM, "Carlos Rovira" <ca...@codeoscopic.com>
wrote:
> Hi Bertrand,
>
> 2012/11/22 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> >
> > FWIW, my reservations were based on
> >
> > a) Git support from ASF infra is still experimental and needs
> > knowledgeable volunteeers (I'd even say Git experts) in the PMC to
> > work.
> >
>
> I count 46 projects on GIT (see https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf)
> so
> it's hard for me continue to think it's "experimental" today.
>
>
> >
> > b) One of the arguments that we keep hearing is that Git will
> > magically cause tons of code contributions to land here. Besides
> > drive-by contributions (small, obvious things) which are easier with
> > github, I'm not convinced of that.
> >
>
> As you say, maybe this will end not happen, but it could be the opposite,
> and walk backwards like crabs: Staying in GIT could bring less
> contributions than expected or make potential contributors not encourage to
> expend the time since they are not confortable with the overall process.
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> Director de Tecnología
> M: +34 607 22 60 05
> F: +34 912 35 57 77
> http://www.codeoscopic.com
> http://www.directwriter.es
> http://www.avant2.es
>
Rushing into Git
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
I don't know if it the best of both world as I didn't try everything but
this combination worked pretty well for us.
- Fred.
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Erik de Bruin
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 11:52 AM
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Rushing into Git
The best of both worlds?
EdB
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Frédéric THOMAS
<we...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The only problem at the moment seems that the svn/git mirroring is slow.
>
> I don't know if it's applicable for asf or even if they already considered
> it but in the last company I've been working for, they used subgit [1] to
> mirror the svn repositories and after a one-time setup which cloned our
> svn
> repo, the mirroring was almost instaneous (both sides), the benefit is
> keeping svn as main repository while having the ability to work with git
> transparently.
>
> [1] http://subgit.com/
>
> - Fred.
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carlos Rovira
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 11:32 AM
> To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Rushing into Git
>
>
> Hi Bertrand,
>
> 2012/11/22 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>>
>>
>> FWIW, my reservations were based on
>>
>> a) Git support from ASF infra is still experimental and needs
>> knowledgeable volunteeers (I'd even say Git experts) in the PMC to
>> work.
>>
>
> I count 46 projects on GIT (see https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf)
> so
> it's hard for me continue to think it's "experimental" today.
>
>
>>
>> b) One of the arguments that we keep hearing is that Git will
>> magically cause tons of code contributions to land here. Besides
>> drive-by contributions (small, obvious things) which are easier with
>> github, I'm not convinced of that.
>>
>
> As you say, maybe this will end not happen, but it could be the opposite,
> and walk backwards like crabs: Staying in GIT could bring less
> contributions than expected or make potential contributors not encourage
> to
> expend the time since they are not confortable with the overall process.
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> Director de Tecnología
> M: +34 607 22 60 05
> F: +34 912 35 57 77
> http://www.codeoscopic.com
> http://www.directwriter.es
> http://www.avant2.es
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
The best of both worlds?
EdB
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Frédéric THOMAS
<we...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The only problem at the moment seems that the svn/git mirroring is slow.
>
> I don't know if it's applicable for asf or even if they already considered
> it but in the last company I've been working for, they used subgit [1] to
> mirror the svn repositories and after a one-time setup which cloned our svn
> repo, the mirroring was almost instaneous (both sides), the benefit is
> keeping svn as main repository while having the ability to work with git
> transparently.
>
> [1] http://subgit.com/
>
> - Fred.
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carlos Rovira
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 11:32 AM
> To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Rushing into Git
>
>
> Hi Bertrand,
>
> 2012/11/22 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>>
>>
>> FWIW, my reservations were based on
>>
>> a) Git support from ASF infra is still experimental and needs
>> knowledgeable volunteeers (I'd even say Git experts) in the PMC to
>> work.
>>
>
> I count 46 projects on GIT (see https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf) so
> it's hard for me continue to think it's "experimental" today.
>
>
>>
>> b) One of the arguments that we keep hearing is that Git will
>> magically cause tons of code contributions to land here. Besides
>> drive-by contributions (small, obvious things) which are easier with
>> github, I'm not convinced of that.
>>
>
> As you say, maybe this will end not happen, but it could be the opposite,
> and walk backwards like crabs: Staying in GIT could bring less
> contributions than expected or make potential contributors not encourage to
> expend the time since they are not confortable with the overall process.
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> Director de Tecnología
> M: +34 607 22 60 05
> F: +34 912 35 57 77
> http://www.codeoscopic.com
> http://www.directwriter.es
> http://www.avant2.es
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Hi,
The only problem at the moment seems that the svn/git mirroring is slow.
I don't know if it's applicable for asf or even if they already considered
it but in the last company I've been working for, they used subgit [1] to
mirror the svn repositories and after a one-time setup which cloned our svn
repo, the mirroring was almost instaneous (both sides), the benefit is
keeping svn as main repository while having the ability to work with git
transparently.
[1] http://subgit.com/
- Fred.
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Carlos Rovira
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 11:32 AM
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Rushing into Git
Hi Bertrand,
2012/11/22 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>
> FWIW, my reservations were based on
>
> a) Git support from ASF infra is still experimental and needs
> knowledgeable volunteeers (I'd even say Git experts) in the PMC to
> work.
>
I count 46 projects on GIT (see https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf) so
it's hard for me continue to think it's "experimental" today.
>
> b) One of the arguments that we keep hearing is that Git will
> magically cause tons of code contributions to land here. Besides
> drive-by contributions (small, obvious things) which are easier with
> github, I'm not convinced of that.
>
As you say, maybe this will end not happen, but it could be the opposite,
and walk backwards like crabs: Staying in GIT could bring less
contributions than expected or make potential contributors not encourage to
expend the time since they are not confortable with the overall process.
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Hi Bertrand,
2012/11/22 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>
> FWIW, my reservations were based on
>
> a) Git support from ASF infra is still experimental and needs
> knowledgeable volunteeers (I'd even say Git experts) in the PMC to
> work.
>
I count 46 projects on GIT (see https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf) so
it's hard for me continue to think it's "experimental" today.
>
> b) One of the arguments that we keep hearing is that Git will
> magically cause tons of code contributions to land here. Besides
> drive-by contributions (small, obvious things) which are easier with
> github, I'm not convinced of that.
>
As you say, maybe this will end not happen, but it could be the opposite,
and walk backwards like crabs: Staying in GIT could bring less
contributions than expected or make potential contributors not encourage to
expend the time since they are not confortable with the overall process.
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
http://www.codeoscopic.com
http://www.directwriter.es
http://www.avant2.es
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> ...Also of note is
> that ALL THREE of the mentors thought it wisest to stay with SVN (for
> now)....
FWIW, my reservations were based on
a) Git support from ASF infra is still experimental and needs
knowledgeable volunteeers (I'd even say Git experts) in the PMC to
work.
b) One of the arguments that we keep hearing is that Git will
magically cause tons of code contributions to land here. Besides
drive-by contributions (small, obvious things) which are easier with
github, I'm not convinced of that.
-Bertrand
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Omar,
>> From the threads here and on the private list I get the feeling that
>> at least one of our mentors has reservations about the legal standing
>> of Git repos in relation to Apache.org.
>
>
> Those concerns have been expressed before, during, and after the vote. It
> obviously did not deter either the community or the PPMC.
>
Actually, looking closer at the results, the vote was split 8 - 8
between moving to Git and keep using SVN (for now). Only, the way the
vote was called fragmented the 'against Git' votes. Also of note is
that ALL THREE of the mentors thought it wisest to stay with SVN (for
now). But I don't want to redo the vote, I just don't want the project
to rush into this without thinking about the "in real life"
consequences.
> Infra to support Apache projects. I would not be so concerned.
Well, I am concerned, and I have been since the time of the vote. But
now I am PPMC and have a responsibility to point out things that might
harm the project. Moving a project as complex as this to another SCM
is not a trivial thing and what I'm reading is that a few very vocal
people want this, but none of them is willing to volunteer with INFRA
to support this. That worries me and I have yet to be convinced that
this project can handle a move this big, at this time.
EdB
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Thursday, November 22, 2012, Erik de Bruin wrote:
> Omar,
>
> As a PPMC member I'm aware that this isn't a vote. My full statement
> ended "at this time" and I was using -1 as an abbreviation to
> emphasise my opinion.
>
> From the threads here and on the private list I get the feeling that
> at least one of our mentors has reservations about the legal standing
> of Git repos in relation to Apache.org.
Those concerns have been expressed before, during, and after the vote. It
obviously did not deter either the community or the PPMC.
> Furthermore, at least in the
> INFRA circles, the reports are that no one is enthusiastic about Git
> and they are (as is obvious from their lack of action on JIRA tickets)
> unwilling to support it. This means that if we make the move now (<-
> note this qualifier), we're likely to be "on our own". I'm not sure
> that risking the loss of INFRA support is a wise thing for a project
> just about to graduate…
>
> EdB
By this logic Infra would be unenthusiastic about any request from Infra.
Their lack of movement stems from a lack of human resources, we are all
volunteers here, and lack of extra support on the Git side. The mere fact
that they are asking for more volunteers on the Git admin from shows their
interest in moving this initiative forward.
Moving to Git would entail a separate request from Infra, which has nothing
to do with the IPMC, the group that would be approving our graduation. The
worst that could happen is Infra denies our request for read/write apache
Git repo. We would never be "on our own" however as its the role of Apache
Infra to support Apache projects. I would not be so concerned.
-omar
>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Omar Gonzalez
> <omarg.developer@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 21, 2012, Erik de Bruin wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> At least one vital service (the website) is more than just a SVN repo.
> >> A post-commit hook activates the 'buildbot' on every commit. How will
> >> this be 'translated' when the Git move happens? Do we have access to
> >> the buildbot outside the SVN infrastructure?
> >>
> >> Do we know which other services (commit emails, access control etc.)
> >> are not (easily) transferred to a Git workflow
> >>
> >> If not, a big -1 on the move at this time, as the Apache organisation
> >> obviously just isn't ready to support - technically, legally and
> >> certainly not 'in spirit' - Git as an alternative to Subversion.
> >>
> >> EdB
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ix Multimedia Software
> >>
> >> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> >> 3521 VB Utrecht
> >>
> >> T. 06-51952295
> >> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
> >>
> >
> > Additionally, the Git support is active and currently being used by
> several
> > projects. Not sure how you can think it's not 'technically, legally, or
> in
> > spirit'. If those three were true we'd have 0 Apache projects in Git.
> > Obviously that's not the case.
> >
> > -omar
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Omar,
As a PPMC member I'm aware that this isn't a vote. My full statement
ended "at this time" and I was using -1 as an abbreviation to
emphasise my opinion.
>From the threads here and on the private list I get the feeling that
at least one of our mentors has reservations about the legal standing
of Git repos in relation to Apache.org. Furthermore, at least in the
INFRA circles, the reports are that no one is enthusiastic about Git
and they are (as is obvious from their lack of action on JIRA tickets)
unwilling to support it. This means that if we make the move now (<-
note this qualifier), we're likely to be "on our own". I'm not sure
that risking the loss of INFRA support is a wise thing for a project
just about to graduate…
EdB
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Omar Gonzalez
<om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012, Erik de Bruin wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> At least one vital service (the website) is more than just a SVN repo.
>> A post-commit hook activates the 'buildbot' on every commit. How will
>> this be 'translated' when the Git move happens? Do we have access to
>> the buildbot outside the SVN infrastructure?
>>
>> Do we know which other services (commit emails, access control etc.)
>> are not (easily) transferred to a Git workflow
>>
>> If not, a big -1 on the move at this time, as the Apache organisation
>> obviously just isn't ready to support - technically, legally and
>> certainly not 'in spirit' - Git as an alternative to Subversion.
>>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>
> Additionally, the Git support is active and currently being used by several
> projects. Not sure how you can think it's not 'technically, legally, or in
> spirit'. If those three were true we'd have 0 Apache projects in Git.
> Obviously that's not the case.
>
> -omar
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Wednesday, November 21, 2012, Erik de Bruin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At least one vital service (the website) is more than just a SVN repo.
> A post-commit hook activates the 'buildbot' on every commit. How will
> this be 'translated' when the Git move happens? Do we have access to
> the buildbot outside the SVN infrastructure?
>
> Do we know which other services (commit emails, access control etc.)
> are not (easily) transferred to a Git workflow
>
> If not, a big -1 on the move at this time, as the Apache organisation
> obviously just isn't ready to support - technically, legally and
> certainly not 'in spirit' - Git as an alternative to Subversion.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
Additionally, the Git support is active and currently being used by several
projects. Not sure how you can think it's not 'technically, legally, or in
spirit'. If those three were true we'd have 0 Apache projects in Git.
Obviously that's not the case.
-omar
Re: Rushing into Git
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Wednesday, November 21, 2012, Erik de Bruin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At least one vital service (the website) is more than just a SVN repo.
> A post-commit hook activates the 'buildbot' on every commit. How will
> this be 'translated' when the Git move happens? Do we have access to
> the buildbot outside the SVN infrastructure?
>
> Do we know which other services (commit emails, access control etc.)
> are not (easily) transferred to a Git workflow
>
> If not, a big -1 on the move at this time, as the Apache organisation
> obviously just isn't ready to support - technically, legally and
> certainly not 'in spirit' - Git as an alternative to Subversion.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
Can't really -1 a vote that already happened and passed. Not to mention
it's not currently up for vote.
In regards to the website, because of the way the commit hooks work that
part of the project stays in SvN. At least that's my understanding from the
threads I'm following.
-omar