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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Vincent Massol <vm...@octo.com> on 2002/10/20 17:44:51 UTC
Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Hi Andrew,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 16:09
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
>
> Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> marketing.
Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the
faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all...
> Where I work, lots of people talk about "maybe we should use
> cactus", and heck there are those who use all sorts of things from the
> Java Developers Journal that they have insufficient knowledge and
> experience to carry off. (Yes you can write an object cache... But
why
> would you, and why would you do it in your stateless session beans)...
> But cactus is a well kept secret. Its one that gets whispered often.
>
> From my limited experience, marketing (ugh!) is just as important as
> anything else to increase your community size.
Interesting... However, I do believe the opposite (and maybe I am
wrong)! I believe Cactus is victim of its success ... rather than it's
lack of ...
If you check the cactus stats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is
receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets
between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a
"niche" project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit
testing).
Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
using awstats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).
Cactus is well advertised and easy to find (junit, google, a book with
Cactus in the title, several others having a chapter on Cactus, several
articles on the web, reviews in magazines, a book in progress I am
writing, etc).
I completely agree with you on marketing which is why I have worked on
that since day one of Cactus ... I may not be doing enough of it (who
does?) but it already takes all my night time work ... ;-)
That said, I only wish to learn and I would love to know some more
tricks from you!
Thanks
-Vincent
>
> -Andy
>
> On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 10:23, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@attbi.com]
> > > Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > >
> > > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
> > growing
> > > the
> > > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
> > Everything
> > > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the
ultimate
> > > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> > >
> > > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't
really
> > get
> > > started. The problem is, developers are too happy, I think. The
> > > framework
> > > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
> > there
> > > hasn't been a need to get involved. A move to Jakarta will
*force* a
> > few
> > > people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other
wise, by
> > the
> > > rules, nothing will actually happen.
> >
> > I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved
Cactus
> > from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> > haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe
there
> > are 2 possible reasons:
> >
> > 1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a
niche
> > and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
> > wrongly I can assure you ... :-))
> >
> > 2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have
tried to
> > work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
> > quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do
not
> > participate because it works and the projects moves forward by
itself
> > (so it seems ;-)).
> >
> > So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change
point 2/
> > (which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if
you
> > have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Peter Donald" <pe...@apache.org>
> > > To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > > > "Benevolent dictatorship". Probably should have expanded on
this.
> > > Without
> > > > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to
> > > ultimately
> > > > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> > >
> > > Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you
come
> > to
> > > Apache
> > > but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this
model
> > > IMHO.
> > > It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Peter Donald
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> --
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> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
> a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
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Re: Log reporting (was: Is Cactus successful)
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
Sourceforge it and let people play (or commons-sandbox it and see where it
goes).
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:05, Henri Yandell wrote:
> If anyone is ever interested, I have the foundation of a Java 'LogView'
> project currently sitting in my personal projects. The idea being that
> it's your usual chaining design with Loglets and Renderers and reports and
> stuff. By having in Java we gain the advantage of making it a live, based
> on Log4J [or other] input. I also thought it was important to make it just
> a log-reporting tool and not a web-log reporting tool. Most of the other
> tool seem to kill themselves by going straight to the weblog concept.
>
> Hen
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
------------------------------------------------
"No. Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
------------------------------------------------
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Log reporting (was: Is Cactus successful)
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Ellis Teer wrote:
> > Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
> > using awstats
I've been a webalizer user too. It suffices.
> > (http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
> > tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).
>
> Thank you for mentioning that stats package as a sidenote. Thinking of
> using it for a project now instead of analog/report magic.
If anyone is ever interested, I have the foundation of a Java 'LogView'
project currently sitting in my personal projects. The idea being that
it's your usual chaining design with Loglets and Renderers and reports and
stuff. By having in Java we gain the advantage of making it a live, based
on Log4J [or other] input. I also thought it was important to make it just
a log-reporting tool and not a web-log reporting tool. Most of the other
tool seem to kill themselves by going straight to the weblog concept.
Hen
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Ellis Teer <el...@sitepen.com>.
> If you check the cactus stats
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is
> receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets
> between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a
> "niche" project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit
> testing).
> Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
> using awstats
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
> tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).
Thank you for mentioning that stats package as a sidenote. Thinking of
using it for a project now instead of analog/report magic.
With Cactus, my impression is that a sizable number of developers know
about it, are interested in it, think it is a good idea, but are too
'busy' in their day jobs to use unit testing, or more complex
server-side unit testing. And for those who have pet projects, those
projects are usually small enough that the benefits of setting up test
cases in the mind are outweighed by adding another feature.
You mentioned later in this thread what I believe is a key point. You
are doing something new and the public/users/possible committers need to
learn to adopt unit testing and then 'IUT'. And while people are
thinking about it, they will browse the page, and even download a copy.
But until they use it for a project and see the advantages its
adoption/attraction to developers may be slow. I think the
documentation and polish helps find developers more than hurts, IUT is
just ahead of their needs though it doesn't need to be.
It reminds me of how digital video records have been slow to take off.
But their time is coming one way or another.
--
Ellis Teer
www.sitepen.com
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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
LOL... oh yes I forgot to note "announce the crap out of everything"
;-)
Andy "the assertive pushy talkative poi committer who doesn't eat
cheese"
>
> Well I can tell you Andy has always been pretty pushy (I mean assertive :)
> about getting people to contribute fixes to their own problems. I think
> this attitude has led people be become more active than they otherwise
> would have been. The fact that he's always talking his head off (I mean
> discussing:) stuff on various lists probably goes a long way to advertising
> his produce. In addition to that each news worthy event tends to be
> advertised at various places. (freemeat, javalobby etc).
>
> It would be great to have a marketing guide somewhere on the site.
>
> Regards,
>
> Glen (the quiet POI committer).
>
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
Jakarta)
Posted by Glen Stampoultzis <tr...@iprimus.com.au>.
At 06:43 PM 20/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
> > Sent: 20 October 2002 18:32
> > To: 'Jakarta General List'
> > Subject: Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> > Jakarta)
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > > > marketing.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is
>the
> > > faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it
>all...
> > >
> > I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on
> > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> > observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
>
>Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
>
>My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
>Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
>thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
>marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
>too strong ;-)
>
>Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
>improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
>some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
>information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
>could do?
>
>You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
>That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
>documentation need to be improved?
>
>FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
>plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
>which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
>users - the entry barrier).
>
>Thanks
>-Vincent
Well I can tell you Andy has always been pretty pushy (I mean assertive :)
about getting people to contribute fixes to their own problems. I think
this attitude has led people be become more active than they otherwise
would have been. The fact that he's always talking his head off (I mean
discussing:) stuff on various lists probably goes a long way to advertising
his produce. In addition to that each news worthy event tends to be
advertised at various places. (freemeat, javalobby etc).
It would be great to have a marketing guide somewhere on the site.
Regards,
Glen (the quiet POI committer).
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <an...@superlinksoftware.com>.
That's awesome information. Thank you for this!
I got no reply from Javaworld or Dr. Dobbs, but I had not tried JDJ. I
wrote Tony Stintes and got no reply,
but I think this:
http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/javaqa/2002-05/01-qa-0503-excel3.html
was sufficient
reply.
Somehow we managed to get coverage in some German professional journals,
etc. But I'm not entirely sure
why "accidental marketing" works so much better in countries where
English is not the native language maybe they try harder
to find things?
Once again, thank you so much for this. It was very helpful to me!
-Andy
Steve Downey wrote:
>I don't think I've ever NOT gotten a reply. It has been a few years since I've
>written, but I doubt things have changed that much.
>
>Getting enough decent technical material for a magazine is always a problem.
>Writing can be fixed by an editor, although it's better if it doesn't have to
>be fixed too much. Technical content can't be fixed by an editor.
>
>You do need to check that you're hitting the right person. The thing to do is
>to check the author's guidelines from the publication. It's usually a link on
>the main page of the website. I think JDJ has a web form for proposals, for
>example, so that they don't get lost in someones inbox. It can be a little
>bit of a problem, as a lot of the editors work virtually, and hand-off can be
>botched.
>
>As long as you're clear who you are, being a principal is not an issue. Think
>about it from the other side. Would you rather read an article about JUnit by
>Erich Gamma or John Doe? You should know more about POI than anyone, and are
>in a better position to write about how to use it than anyone.
>
>
>On Tuesday 22 October 2002 11:19 am, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>
>>Cool! Suggestions? I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor
>>himself.
>>
>>Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal
>>contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as
>>objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get
>>more credibility there), but that is another story.
>>
>>Steve Downey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had
>>>>articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on
>>>>Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the
>>>>best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
>>>>haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
>>>>"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No, it's not the best approach.
>>>
>>>The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article
>>>for you about Cactus. Cactus is <blah>, will interest you readers because
>>>of <blah>, and the article will be about N words long, not counting
>>>source code. Can I email you an outline?"
>>>
>>>Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the
>>>magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as
>>>would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Steve Downey <st...@netfolio.com>.
I don't think I've ever NOT gotten a reply. It has been a few years since I've
written, but I doubt things have changed that much.
Getting enough decent technical material for a magazine is always a problem.
Writing can be fixed by an editor, although it's better if it doesn't have to
be fixed too much. Technical content can't be fixed by an editor.
You do need to check that you're hitting the right person. The thing to do is
to check the author's guidelines from the publication. It's usually a link on
the main page of the website. I think JDJ has a web form for proposals, for
example, so that they don't get lost in someones inbox. It can be a little
bit of a problem, as a lot of the editors work virtually, and hand-off can be
botched.
As long as you're clear who you are, being a principal is not an issue. Think
about it from the other side. Would you rather read an article about JUnit by
Erich Gamma or John Doe? You should know more about POI than anyone, and are
in a better position to write about how to use it than anyone.
On Tuesday 22 October 2002 11:19 am, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Cool! Suggestions? I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor
> himself.
>
> Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal
> contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as
> objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get
> more credibility there), but that is another story.
>
> Steve Downey wrote:
> >On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >>Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had
> >>articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on
> >>Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the
> >>best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> >>haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
> >>"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
> >
> >No, it's not the best approach.
> >
> >The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article
> > for you about Cactus. Cactus is <blah>, will interest you readers because
> > of <blah>, and the article will be about N words long, not counting
> > source code. Can I email you an outline?"
> >
> >Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the
> >magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as
> >would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys.
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <an...@superlinksoftware.com>.
Cool! Suggestions? I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor
himself.
Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal
contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as
objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get
more credibility there), but that is another story.
Steve Downey wrote:
>On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>
>>Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had
>>articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on
>>Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the
>>best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
>>haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
>>"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
>>
>>
>>
>No, it's not the best approach.
>
>The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article for
>you about Cactus. Cactus is <blah>, will interest you readers because of
><blah>, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code.
>Can I email you an outline?"
>
>Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the
>magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as
>would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys.
>
>
>
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>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Steve Downey <st...@netfolio.com>.
On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had
> articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on
> Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the
> best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
> "but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
>
No, it's not the best approach.
The best way is call up an editor and say, "I'd like to write an article for
you about Cactus. Cactus is <blah>, will interest you readers because of
<blah>, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code.
Can I email you an outline?"
Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the
magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as
would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys.
--
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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@octo.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 19:03
> To: Vincent Massol
> Cc: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
>
>
> > > I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based
on
> > > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what
I'd
> > > observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
> >
> > Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
> >
> > My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
> > Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very
nice
> > thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
> > marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction
was
> > too strong ;-)
> >
>
> Ahh... word connotation. I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the
> right way of saying things in email. I'm told I'm abrasive in email,
> but not in person. The funny thing is I say the same things... They
> just come off differently. Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of
> voice... (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions)
>
> > Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do
to
> > improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be
missing
> > some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> > information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus
team
> > could do?
> >
>
> Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had
> articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on
> Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found
the
> best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the
author
> "but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
>
> Some people do the JUG tour.
>
The discussion I had started was not about how to grow Cactus user base.
We are very happy with that (well beyond my expectations actually and
progressing steadily) but more on how to grow the committer's base. Of
course growing the number of people who knows about Cactus may have an
effect on the number of committers but I am not so sure about that
(that's not my observations so far).
My belief is that Cactus is too much viewed as a finished product:
- it works
- it has nice documentation
- it has a nice build process
- it has a quite responsive mailing list (a bit less lately as I have
slightly less time with Maven/other stuff and I'm trying to see if
others jump in when I don't answer 30 seconds after the question has
been posted ;-). It seems to be working! I have the feeling Cactus is
getting more ML participation ...).
- steady releases (9 versions/releases in 16 months, 1 stable releases/4
months).
It is indeed a finished product but there are still so many interesting
things to do to make it even way better ... ;-) (documented on the
todo/goal page).
> > You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
> > That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
> > documentation need to be improved?
> >
>
> No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-)
>
> If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't
look
> too bad.
It isn't but needs reorganization to prevent misreadings like the one
you mention below ... :-)
>
> > FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
> > plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks,
etc)
> > which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by
the
> > users - the entry barrier).
> >
>
> Ahh. i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse
> wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or).
Let's not go there... Ok just a little then... Personally I don't want
compilation, which Eclipse gives me ;-) (I'm talking about dynamic
compilation). I want to know right away the result of a change I make to
a class across all my project, I want to know right away if I've broken
any coding convention as I type (using checkstyle for example), I want
to know the code impacted by my Aspects (AOP/AspectJ), if I make a
change deep in the directory structure, I want it to be surfaced so that
I know what is not committed, etc.
If you can resist, try not to answer this as it will lead to another OT
thread ;-) (you've started!).
>
> The biggest turnoff for me was this:
>
> "
> This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is
> performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about
> other browsers.
> "
>
> IE doesn't work well under Linux. Plus I like mozilla better and even
> use it when I have to use Winblows.
Do you want to participate? Feel free to send a patch to perform XSLT
transformation on the server side! More seriously, this is not a Cactus
feature, it's a browser feature. The document was pointing out that
without modifying Cactus you could get the XML transformed to HTML by
simply having an XSL stylesheet in the directory where the XML is. Now,
one of the goal is to make this XML->HTML transformation a feature.
Hence your patch ;-). The only problem is that I named this tutorial
Tomcat Howto and with the fame of Tomcat, everybody is looking at that
page, which is a really small add-on that has been added lately to the
doc but which is not part of Cactus core.
BTW, doing a quick search revealed
(http://www.webreference.com/xml/column58/):
"
A full XSL-T (XSL transformation) processor named TransforMiix, also
available stand-alone, is built into Mozilla. XML documents can be
transformed using XSLT, as has been championed by Internet Explorer 5.
TransforMiix does not support the draft versions of XSLT prematurely
released by Microsoft, so if you want to deploy to both make sure you
use XSLT 1.0, not 0.9.
"
If you try it and tell me it works I will update the doc and add that it
works in Mozilla X ! ;-)
-Vincent
>
> -Andy
>
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > >
> > > -Andy
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
in
> > > Java
> > > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > > structure
> > > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> > > Projects!
> > > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles
to
> > > vote.
> > > -Ambassador Kosh
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
> a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> > I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on
> > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> > observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
>
> Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
>
> My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
> Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
> thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
> marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
> too strong ;-)
>
Ahh... word connotation. I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the
right way of saying things in email. I'm told I'm abrasive in email,
but not in person. The funny thing is I say the same things... They
just come off differently. Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of
voice... (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions)
> Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
> improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
> some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
> could do?
>
Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had
articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on
Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the
best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
Some people do the JUG tour.
> You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
> That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
> documentation need to be improved?
>
No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-)
If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't look
too bad.
> FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
> plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
> which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
> users - the entry barrier).
>
Ahh. i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse
wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or).
The biggest turnoff for me was this:
"
This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is
performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about
other browsers.
"
IE doesn't work well under Linux. Plus I like mozilla better and even
use it when I have to use Winblows.
-Andy
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > --
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> > Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@octo.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@generationjava.com]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 20:36
> To: Jakarta General List
> Cc: acoliver@apache.org
> Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
>
>
>
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do
to
> > improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be
missing
> > some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> > information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus
team
> > could do?
>
> Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of
Cactus
> through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's
no
> real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is
Java,
> I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but
I
> don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs
from
> httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial
> assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components].
Hehe ... I think you may have nailed the exact problem! Even your last
sentence is not completely correct which proves your point (although it
is written on the web site!)... ;-) It's about *unit* testing java
server-side components (although at the moment it is more restricted to
unit testing J2EE components but that's not the only goal). And it's
about doing it in-container (inside the container).
Would "In-container Unit Testing" or "Integration Unit Testing" be a
nice meme?
I think the problem also comes from the fact that unit tests are still
relatively new. And what Cactus is doing is even newer. Thus there is
not yet any global knowledge of what IUT is about ... Cactus was built
to explore this road and is indeed a precursor ;-)
>
> So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of
Cactus,
> there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the
level
> of effort to use etc.
>
Yes, you are right. Everything is described on the web site (included
comparisons with other strategies), etc. BUT the problem is that you
have to read it first ...
In that sense, Andrew was right. There is a need to do a lot of
evangelization on the concept of IUT so that it enters our global mind.
> [adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure
there
> are many out there. ]
That would be nice ;-)
>
> Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can
> sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay,
but
> not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :)
I think you are completely right :-)
In addition the concept may need to be expanded a bit as it may be too
restrictive. Here are some ideas for the future:
- runtime unit testing (possibly using AOP)
- stress unit testing
(Thus more like tools like Introscope but at a much more agile level.)
It would still be In-Container Unit Testing (ICUT or IUT), though...
>
> Hen
>
-Vincent
--
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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote:
>
>
> Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
> improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
> some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
> could do?
Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of Cactus
through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's no
real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is Java,
I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but I
don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs from
httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial
assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components].
So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of Cactus,
there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the level
of effort to use etc.
[adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure there
are many out there. ]
Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can
sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay, but
not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :)
Hen
--
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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@octo.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 18:32
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
>
>
> > >
> > > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > > marketing.
> >
> > Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is
the
> > faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it
all...
> >
> I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on
> what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
too strong ;-)
Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
could do?
You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
documentation need to be improved?
FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
users - the entry barrier).
Thanks
-Vincent
>
> -Andy
>
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
> a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> >
> > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > marketing.
>
> Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the
> faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all...
>
I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on
what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
-Andy
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>