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Posted to fx-dev@ws.apache.org by "Paul Fremantle (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org> on 2007/03/21 11:23:32 UTC
[jira] Created: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
----------------------------------
Key: SANDESHA2-75
URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
Project: Sandesha2
Issue Type: Improvement
Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
Reporter: Paul Fremantle
Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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Re: [jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Matt
Firstly, I do not like the idea of composing MakeConnection with
RM1.0. As you can see I've raised a JIRA about that. In addition, we
have now implemented the replay model for synchronous 2-way
interactions with WSRM1.0.
I think we need to make it easy to switch offer on and off, but I
think "out-of-the-box" interop on WSRM1.0 should be an objective, and
at the moment we don't have that.
Paul
On 3/21/07, Matt Lovett (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> [ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482707 ]
>
> Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
> --------------------------------------
>
> This is actually quite a tricky issue. There are plenty of times that an offer is inappropriate - suppose I want to set a reply-to to some third party, etc. However, I agree that we want to interop with some other vendors that expect a fairly rigid setup, and require an offer.
>
> The case that really needs an offer is when doing sync 2-way without MakeConnection. Unfortunately, the first call to a particular service might be a 1-way, and the second call could be a 2-way, so as Paul already noted we need to look at all of the operations on the service rather than the first operation that we invoke.
>
> For all aysnc cases, and for cases where we enable MakeConnection, I don't think we _require_ an Offer, so leaving it as an optimization that the programmer can enable seems appropriate.
>
> Can we try to come to a consensus on list? I think it's worth having a proper debate about this, as we are probably setting a precedent that will last for a while. My view is that the WSRM spec level is not particularly relevant (after all, you can compose MakeConnection with WSRM 1.0 if you choose).
>
> Thanks, Matt
>
> > Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> > ----------------------------------
> >
> > Key: SANDESHA2-75
> > URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> > Project: Sandesha2
> > Issue Type: Improvement
> > Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> > Reporter: Paul Fremantle
> >
> > Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
>
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--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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Re: [jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Matt
Firstly, I do not like the idea of composing MakeConnection with
RM1.0. As you can see I've raised a JIRA about that. In addition, we
have now implemented the replay model for synchronous 2-way
interactions with WSRM1.0.
I think we need to make it easy to switch offer on and off, but I
think "out-of-the-box" interop on WSRM1.0 should be an objective, and
at the moment we don't have that.
Paul
On 3/21/07, Matt Lovett (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> [ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482707 ]
>
> Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
> --------------------------------------
>
> This is actually quite a tricky issue. There are plenty of times that an offer is inappropriate - suppose I want to set a reply-to to some third party, etc. However, I agree that we want to interop with some other vendors that expect a fairly rigid setup, and require an offer.
>
> The case that really needs an offer is when doing sync 2-way without MakeConnection. Unfortunately, the first call to a particular service might be a 1-way, and the second call could be a 2-way, so as Paul already noted we need to look at all of the operations on the service rather than the first operation that we invoke.
>
> For all aysnc cases, and for cases where we enable MakeConnection, I don't think we _require_ an Offer, so leaving it as an optimization that the programmer can enable seems appropriate.
>
> Can we try to come to a consensus on list? I think it's worth having a proper debate about this, as we are probably setting a precedent that will last for a while. My view is that the WSRM spec level is not particularly relevant (after all, you can compose MakeConnection with WSRM 1.0 if you choose).
>
> Thanks, Matt
>
> > Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> > ----------------------------------
> >
> > Key: SANDESHA2-75
> > URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> > Project: Sandesha2
> > Issue Type: Improvement
> > Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> > Reporter: Paul Fremantle
> >
> > Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
>
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>
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Gilbert Pilz (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482978 ]
Gilbert Pilz commented on SANDESHA2-75:
---------------------------------------
As far as BEA is concerned, the requirement to include an Offer when an WS-RM-enabled service declares any output messages* is specified by the following paragraph in WS-RM Policy 200502 (http://specs.xmlsoap.org/ws/2005/02/rm/WS-RMPolicy.pdf - last paragraph of Section 2.3 "Assertion Attachment"):
--------
Per WS-ReliableMessaging [WS-RM], a wsrm:CreateSequence request MAY contain an offer to create an "inbound" Sequence. If the RM policy assertion is attached to an endpoint declaring only input messages, the endpoint MUST reject a wsrm:CreateSequence request containing a wsrm:Offer to create a corresponding Sequence. If the assertion is attached to an endpoint declaring both input and output messages, the endpoint MUST reject a wsrm:CreateSequence request that does not contain a wsrm:Offer to create a corresponding Sequence.
--------
The way WLS implements WS-RM, enabling a service for WS-RM and attaching an RMAssertion to the WSDL (even if it's an implicit WSDL that may not be available until the service is deployed) are one and the same thing, so we have to implement this requirement. From the Sandesha viewpoint I can see that this isn't so cut and dried, considering that Sandesha doesn't use WS-RM Policy.
* We also implement the requirement to reject CreateSequence messages that contain Offers if the target service declares only input messages.
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Gilbert Pilz (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482978 ]
Gilbert Pilz commented on SANDESHA2-75:
---------------------------------------
As far as BEA is concerned, the requirement to include an Offer when an WS-RM-enabled service declares any output messages* is specified by the following paragraph in WS-RM Policy 200502 (http://specs.xmlsoap.org/ws/2005/02/rm/WS-RMPolicy.pdf - last paragraph of Section 2.3 "Assertion Attachment"):
--------
Per WS-ReliableMessaging [WS-RM], a wsrm:CreateSequence request MAY contain an offer to create an "inbound" Sequence. If the RM policy assertion is attached to an endpoint declaring only input messages, the endpoint MUST reject a wsrm:CreateSequence request containing a wsrm:Offer to create a corresponding Sequence. If the assertion is attached to an endpoint declaring both input and output messages, the endpoint MUST reject a wsrm:CreateSequence request that does not contain a wsrm:Offer to create a corresponding Sequence.
--------
The way WLS implements WS-RM, enabling a service for WS-RM and attaching an RMAssertion to the WSDL (even if it's an implicit WSDL that may not be available until the service is deployed) are one and the same thing, so we have to implement this requirement. From the Sandesha viewpoint I can see that this isn't so cut and dried, considering that Sandesha doesn't use WS-RM Policy.
* We also implement the requirement to reject CreateSequence messages that contain Offers if the target service declares only input messages.
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Matt Lovett (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482707 ]
Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
--------------------------------------
This is actually quite a tricky issue. There are plenty of times that an offer is inappropriate - suppose I want to set a reply-to to some third party, etc. However, I agree that we want to interop with some other vendors that expect a fairly rigid setup, and require an offer.
The case that really needs an offer is when doing sync 2-way without MakeConnection. Unfortunately, the first call to a particular service might be a 1-way, and the second call could be a 2-way, so as Paul already noted we need to look at all of the operations on the service rather than the first operation that we invoke.
For all aysnc cases, and for cases where we enable MakeConnection, I don't think we _require_ an Offer, so leaving it as an optimization that the programmer can enable seems appropriate.
Can we try to come to a consensus on list? I think it's worth having a proper debate about this, as we are probably setting a precedent that will last for a while. My view is that the WSRM spec level is not particularly relevant (after all, you can compose MakeConnection with WSRM 1.0 if you choose).
Thanks, Matt
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Resolved: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Andrew Gatford (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
Andrew Gatford resolved SANDESHA2-75.
-------------------------------------
Resolution: Fixed
Fixed in revision 521260
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Paul Fremantle (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482733 ]
Paul Fremantle commented on SANDESHA2-75:
-----------------------------------------
Matt
Firstly, I do not like the idea of composing MakeConnection with
RM1.0. As you can see I've raised a JIRA about that. In addition, we
have now implemented the replay model for synchronous 2-way
interactions with WSRM1.0.
I think we need to make it easy to switch offer on and off, but I
think "out-of-the-box" interop on WSRM1.0 should be an objective, and
at the moment we don't have that.
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Matt Lovett (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482707 ]
Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
--------------------------------------
This is actually quite a tricky issue. There are plenty of times that an offer is inappropriate - suppose I want to set a reply-to to some third party, etc. However, I agree that we want to interop with some other vendors that expect a fairly rigid setup, and require an offer.
The case that really needs an offer is when doing sync 2-way without MakeConnection. Unfortunately, the first call to a particular service might be a 1-way, and the second call could be a 2-way, so as Paul already noted we need to look at all of the operations on the service rather than the first operation that we invoke.
For all aysnc cases, and for cases where we enable MakeConnection, I don't think we _require_ an Offer, so leaving it as an optimization that the programmer can enable seems appropriate.
Can we try to come to a consensus on list? I think it's worth having a proper debate about this, as we are probably setting a precedent that will last for a while. My view is that the WSRM spec level is not particularly relevant (after all, you can compose MakeConnection with WSRM 1.0 if you choose).
Thanks, Matt
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Paul Fremantle (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12482733 ]
Paul Fremantle commented on SANDESHA2-75:
-----------------------------------------
Matt
Firstly, I do not like the idea of composing MakeConnection with
RM1.0. As you can see I've raised a JIRA about that. In addition, we
have now implemented the replay model for synchronous 2-way
interactions with WSRM1.0.
I think we need to make it easy to switch offer on and off, but I
think "out-of-the-box" interop on WSRM1.0 should be an objective, and
at the moment we don't have that.
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Matt Lovett (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12483113 ]
Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
--------------------------------------
Fair enough - I agree that even for people who don't implement policy those words are strong enough for us to need to follow them. One side effect is that an Offer is going to be required regardless of the mapping onto the wire - so an async 2-way with RM 1.0 will include an offer as well. For anyone rediecting replies to a third party we'd have to recommend that they use the new spec.
I'll cook up a patch, it's a simple change.
Matt
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Matt Lovett (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12483113 ]
Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
--------------------------------------
Fair enough - I agree that even for people who don't implement policy those words are strong enough for us to need to follow them. One side effect is that an Offer is going to be required regardless of the mapping onto the wire - so an async 2-way with RM 1.0 will include an offer as well. For anyone rediecting replies to a third party we'd have to recommend that they use the new spec.
I'll cook up a patch, it's a simple change.
Matt
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Paul Fremantle (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12483055 ]
Paul Fremantle commented on SANDESHA2-75:
-----------------------------------------
Thanks Gil
I'd missed that. So then for 1.0 thats end of argument! :-)
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Matt Lovett (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12483143 ]
Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
--------------------------------------
I've added a patch into Sandesha - commit 521260. Please update the Jira if you are happy with the change.
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Matt Lovett (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12483143 ]
Matt Lovett commented on SANDESHA2-75:
--------------------------------------
I've added a patch into Sandesha - commit 521260. Please update the Jira if you are happy with the change.
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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[jira] Commented: (SANDESHA2-75) Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
Posted by "Paul Fremantle (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#action_12483055 ]
Paul Fremantle commented on SANDESHA2-75:
-----------------------------------------
Thanks Gil
I'd missed that. So then for 1.0 thats end of argument! :-)
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> Auto-Offer on two-way interactions
> ----------------------------------
>
> Key: SANDESHA2-75
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDESHA2-75
> Project: Sandesha2
> Issue Type: Improvement
> Environment: Axis2 talking to other WSRM endpoints
> Reporter: Paul Fremantle
>
> Most WSRM endpoints "expect" an offer if the service they are offering has any in-out operations. We don't make those offers unless the user codes them, meaning that we don't interop as easily as we should. We ought to make an offer if there are any in-out operations on the service.
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