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Posted to user@turbine.apache.org by Age Mooy <am...@home.nl> on 2001/08/21 13:00:48 UTC
Expresso comparison ?
Hi,
Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso framework compares to Turbine ?
I've been developing with Turbine for almost a year, but now my hype-controlled boss has discovered Expresso.
It looks a lot more complex and a lot less easy to use.... does anyone has any experience with it ?
Age
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Kasper Nielsen <ne...@kav.dk>.
There is a little here
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/landscape.html
- Kasper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Age Mooy" <am...@home.nl>
To: "Turbine-User" <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:00 PM
Subject: Expresso comparison ?
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso framework compares
to Turbine ?
> I've been developing with Turbine for almost a year, but now my
hype-controlled boss has discovered Expresso.
> It looks a lot more complex and a lot less easy to use.... does anyone has
any experience with it ?
>
> Age
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@apache.org>.
On 8/21/01 7:00 AM, "Age Mooy" <am...@home.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso framework compares to
> Turbine ?
> I've been developing with Turbine for almost a year, but now my
> hype-controlled boss has discovered Expresso.
Does he want a plug and play website, or maybe he wants to add some sizzle
;-) Expresso probably has more buzz words, but other than that I have no
idea :-)
> It looks a lot more complex and a lot less easy to use.... does anyone has any
> experience with it ?
>
> Age
>
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 8/24/01 8:51 PM, "Flying Cloud" <fl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> http://www.jcorporate.com/html/products/expresso/matrix_compare.html
Wow. I don't even know where to start!
How do you fill in such important criteria as:
"Very fast"
"Reliable, Stable and scaleable"
"Growth path"
Needless to say, I will fill in your missing points when I get back and add
a few more for you.
p.s. You didn't answer the pressing questions:
How many full time paid employees does JavaCorporate have?
How many full time paid software engineers does JavaCorporate have?
Approximate numbers are ok if you don't want to divulge real numbers. I
think it is funny that you can tell us you have 13k registered members, but
can't tell how many people are in your company. Something smells fishy.
-jon
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RE: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Flying Cloud <fl...@prodigy.net>.
Jon,
There is nothing further to be gained in continuing this discussion.
If there are any questions we can answer pertaining to Expresso please let
us know.
Or if there is anyone that would like to collaborate on the document
mentioned (since it is probably out of date now).
http://www.jcorporate.com/html/products/expresso/matrix_compare.html
Sandra Cann
scann@jcorporate.com
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 8/24/01 7:15 PM, "Flying Cloud" <fl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> You can download from jcorporate without registering!
Not from CVS.
> Being for internal use only - is entirely true. That "something" is the
> value of a qualitative number of people in our community. Currently we have
> approximately 12,000 registered users.
How many active users?
> Vague.
When I get back, I will write another YMTD-style article that goes in detail
over all of the design and code issues that I have with Expresso. How's
that?
> Jon, enough already - your earlier claim was "Expresso is a framework done
> by...one employee" not that he is author of a large portion. Interesting how
> your claims change to suit your purpose.
I will ask again:
How many full time paid employees does JavaCorporate have?
Let me also expand on that:
How many full time paid software engineers does JavaCorporate have?
> Factually speaking about 2 years ago I approached Kevin Burton about the
> idea of combining efforts and strengths into creating one framework - and
> that was one of primary reasons I came to ApacheCon in Orlando. We offered
> to contribute the Expresso code to Apache provided we could retain copyright
> for the substantial effort of years code (in dev since '96) we would be
> contributing.
We were only interested in joining forces. The rules are clear about the
copyrights.
> The other factor in our decision was you made it abundantly clear in Orlando
> that all decisions would be yours and the first thing you'd start with was
> throwing away dbobjects - one of Expresso's core strengths.
What the hell? I never made any statements that any decisions are "mine". In
fact, I have always been strongly advocating that I am *not* the core of the
Turbine project. Look at development today, Jason van Zyl and the rest of
the contributors run the show. Not me. Nearly every commit that I made in
Turbine today is done after discussion with Jason.
To add to that, the "rules" for the Jakarta/ASF projects dictate that no one
person has complete control over anything. Look at the voting rules.
<http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html>
> So much for the
> concept of teamwork and collaboration on decisions. As you said yourself
> today you are "very opinionated". The one difference is while to you, "That
> isn't a bad thing IMHO", my view is closemindedness can detrimental to a
> project. So while no one is wrong - there was a philosophical difference
> that made this not win/win for us.
I can state my opinions all day long. When it comes down to contributing
code, my opinions only go so far as what the developers of the project want.
This is clearly documented in the voting guidelines for all of the Jakarta
projects. How you can twist that into me owning a project is beyond me.
<http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html>
> It didn't much matter because the frameworks really had considerably little
> overlap and we continued on in different directions. If there becomes an
> opportunity where collaboration would be possible I would be ecstatic Jon.
That has always been up to you. We always welcome contributions and you have
clearly decided to stay away and create your own wheels.
> My interest remains today collaborating with the OSS community for the
> greater good of the Java market. Our integration with other components, Java
> Standards and most recently Struts are the results of our commitment.
Great! Needless to say, I think you choose the completely wrong direction
with integration with Struts/JSP. Of course, that is MY OPINION and carries
as much weight as anyone else's opinions.
-jon
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
Apologies all around.
I think I have been a bit harsh to Mr. Nash and his associate. It has been a
long day and I need a break.
That said, I'm off to go camping and get some fresh air for a few days.
I promise to come back with a better attitude.
-jon
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RE: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Flying Cloud <fl...@prodigy.net>.
> It isn't a common practice in an open source community. mysql.org just got
> flamed to hell for requiring people to log in in order to download mysql.
You can download from jcorporate without registering!
> As for internal use only, that isn't entirely true. Your argument is based
> on you saying about that you need to justify the cost of maintaining these
> services by using the registration information for "something".
Being for internal use only - is entirely true. That "something" is the
value of a qualitative number of people in our community. Currently we have
approximately 12,000 registered users.
> > 2. Registering enables creating and building a tighter sense of
> community...
> What does the forums have to do with access to anonymous CVS?
Hm, that might be a mistake. I'll have to check on that. In any case it
could be considered another eService.
> Apache.org receives something like 3+ million connections/day. We
> don't have
> corporate sponsorship other than what is donated. Anything more
> than static
> pages taxes the *shared server* (that is shared by something like 500+
> developers) so it is a policy across all of apache.org that
> static files are
> the way to go.
With the tools at hand I perceive sites increasingly going more dynamic for
easier maintenance and for community building.
Jcorporate invested the time in developing the applications Jcorporate uses
to drive it's site. It's interesting that several areas such as forums, faq
and helpdesk began for our own use and have evolved into our product
offerings. It's not so strange that those applications we need ourselves
are the same needed by companies for community building and collaboration.
And here's nothing like eating one's own cooking for QA and ideas. We use
eContent, our content management system, for managing the projects. Within
the projects we are seeing the need for more documentation
collaboration/management with our contributors, and will be soon using
eContent so that our contributors can check out/check in, have workflow etc
for managing this process. Its very exciting.
> I did look at his work. Honestly, I wasn't exactly impressed at the time
> with his code. Last time I looked, it was back in June. Maybe his code has
> improved since then, I know mine has
Vague.
> Needless to say, a quick grep through the code reveals that he is
> the author
> of quite a large portion of the code which substantiates my
> earlier claims.
One might think that this is appropriate for the lead developer ;).
Jon, enough already - your earlier claim was "Expresso is a framework done
by...one employee" not that he is author of a large portion. Interesting how
your claims change to suit your purpose.
As for much of the rest of your email it degrades from there with opinions
without factual basis; and therefore I can see no value in continuing this
discussion.
i.e.
I don't know where you got the idea we had a booth at a conference. I'd
suggest you get facts.
Both Turbine and Expresso are free; with free support on the list.
snip
> We offered to work with you in the past and you blew us off.
This topic was better left alone and I am surprised that you brought it up.
I am at odds with myself on whether to answer or not.
Factually speaking about 2 years ago I approached Kevin Burton about the
idea of combining efforts and strengths into creating one framework - and
that was one of primary reasons I came to ApacheCon in Orlando. We offered
to contribute the Expresso code to Apache provided we could retain copyright
for the substantial effort of years code (in dev since '96) we would be
contributing. Kevin was at first optimistic because there was a similar
arrangement with a couple of other Apache projects when the originator
retained the copyright. However, the answer came back a polite "No". We
still considered it, impressed with meeting with Brian.
The other factor in our decision was you made it abundantly clear in Orlando
that all decisions would be yours and the first thing you'd start with was
throwing away dbobjects - one of Expresso's core strengths. So much for the
concept of teamwork and collaboration on decisions. As you said yourself
today you are "very opinionated". The one difference is while to you, "That
isn't a bad thing IMHO", my view is closemindedness can detrimental to a
project. So while no one is wrong - there was a philosophical difference
that made this not win/win for us.
It didn't much matter because the frameworks really had considerably little
overlap and we continued on in different directions. If there becomes an
opportunity where collaboration would be possible I would be ecstatic Jon.
My interest remains today collaborating with the OSS community for the
greater good of the Java market. Our integration with other components, Java
Standards and most recently Struts are the results of our commitment.
Sandra Cann
scann@jcorporate.com
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 8/24/01 4:56 PM, "Flying Cloud" <fl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>> There is a thread on the Jcorporate site under Expresso User forum which
>>> discusses our users' thoughts on how they compare; as well as...
>>
>> Please post the URI...
>
> One thing to bear in mind is that this is from earlier this year and
> probably is a little out of date.
> http://www.jcorporate.com/servlet/ControllerActionServlet?controller=com.jco
> rporate.eforum.controller.Browse&next=/components/eforum/jsp/messages.jsp&st
> ate=browseMessages&GroupId=1&ThreadId=142
>
> [As a side note - a search feature will be on site in near future for the
> site content, forums, faq, and helpdesk]
>
> To access eServices you must be registered as a user.
>
> Having heard Jon's complaint about this already - I will explain the reason
> although we will probably "agree to disagree" ...
> 1. Considering the forums and other eServices cost Jcorporate money to write
> and maintain - it is very good user value that the only cost is
> registering - info which is only for internal use. Registering is after all
> common practice. And if registering is too much effort there is always the
> opensource listserv.
It isn't a common practice in an open source community. mysql.org just got
flamed to hell for requiring people to log in in order to download mysql.
As for internal use only, that isn't entirely true. Your argument is based
on you saying about that you need to justify the cost of maintaining these
services by using the registration information for "something".
> 2. Registering enables creating and building a tighter sense of community
> building as well as being able to offer more personalization. Registering
> allows us to send forum thread postings to the user's email address if they
> wish this service. As time goes on it will enable us to provide more
> personalized services.
What does the forums have to do with access to anonymous CVS?
> 3. Registering also enables the user to see Expresso in action. Expresso
> drives virtually everything on site as the foundation technology to the
> forum, faq, helpdesk (task lists, bugs, news, projects), econtent management
> etc etc. It a live, breathing example of Expresso (we have 1.25M hits or so
> onsite); and we are generally the first site to eat our own cooking when a
> new release is being prepared.
Great!
Apache.org receives something like 3+ million connections/day. We don't have
corporate sponsorship other than what is donated. Anything more than static
pages taxes the *shared server* (that is shared by something like 500+
developers) so it is a policy across all of apache.org that static files are
the way to go.
> How about your site - what is Turbine used to drive?
<http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/powered.html>
> Ah...its nice to be remembered :). Michael is very private so suffice it to
> say that academically he was exceptionally outstanding. Better yet you have
> only to look at his work; or talk to Expresso's contributors to confirm it.
I did look at his work. Honestly, I wasn't exactly impressed at the time
with his code. Last time I looked, it was back in June. Maybe his code has
improved since then, I know mine has.
Needless to say, a quick grep through the code reveals that he is the author
of quite a large portion of the code which substantiates my earlier claims.
grep -rh "@author" *
> Interesting perception you have; as I understand it that foobar is what made
> Apache known in the corporate world.
Nope, quality software was what made Apache HTTPd known in the corporate
world. Also, the price point couldn't be beat.
Did you know that up until recently, Apache HTTPd didn't even have a testing
suite?
> We've had a number of awards: both the reader choice awards and the
> Sun/JavaPro awards brought considerably more traffic. On the basis of
> results I view it as indicative of the value to the community, and feedback
> on our work; and certainly better than that indicated by no awards from my
> way of thinking. Feedback, both positive and negative is essential to
> growing as a product and organization.
Yea, we don't really worry about bringing traffic in here. Our advertising
budget is as large as our software cost. $0.00. :-)
What we worry about is producing quality software.
> We don't spend any money on advertising either.
I find that hard to believe, how much does a booth cost at a conference?
> No one using our OSS projects need pay us a dime; and all eServices are
> free. Contributors get even more free. I don't understand your issue with
> money - it's humorous as surely you live so you do use the stuff to pay for
> food, clothes, car etc. ;)
I find that certain pieces of software are not worth charging money for.
They are commodities. For instance, you are attempting to compete with
Turbine. Why would anyone use your software when they can download Turbine
for free and get immediate support here on the list? There is no value add
in the framework. The value add is in the applications built on top of the
framework.
> We had to write/maintain a servlet to perform this count; and while this was
> an investment of time we felt it be part of good management of the project.
> It is often helpful to users to be able to gauge the project's maturity and
> acceptance - especially when corporate personnel need to justify their
> decisions. Heck 90% or more of the people using the community OSS work are
> corporate. It is also useful so that we have a gauge to know how well we
> are doing. It's like taking the temperature on a given afternoon. Over time
> it provides a relative indication.
I stopped caring about numbers like this a long time ago. If you produce
quality tools and can prove that they are quality, people will come and
adopt them. Velocity is a primary example of this.
Number of users is no indication of quality. JSP is a prime example of that.
> On another note, I'd like to add that is very important to Jcorporate and
> our user community to build on shared OSS standards projects such as Log4J,
> JUnit, Bouncycastle, Xerces, Xalan, Struts and others. Struts being the
> latest integration that we just completed.
Great! Although, you certainly read the postings here by people who are
coming *from* the Struts community looking for a better solution than
Struts.
> All things considered with what
> M$ is doing it would be ideal in the interest of promoting Java in the
> marketplace to look at what we are all doing and align so that we build on
> each other's work and strengths rather than recreating wheels. To work
> together as an industry.
I'm personally not interested in competition with M$. They will walk right
over you if you go that route.
> "Our separation from each other is an optical illusion of consciousness.
> (Albert Einstein)"
We offered to work with you in the past and you blew us off.
:-)
-jon
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RE: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Rodney Schneider <ro...@bicamera.com>.
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Flying Cloud wrote:
> In closing I'd like to add that my personal believe is that people deserve
> respect, and preferably thoughfulness and consideration. Most people's lives
> are busy and as busy as our own!!! No matter how busy we are, being rude is
> unnecessary and undesireable! It is desireable to create a healthy, creative
> communities where people can safely express their ideas, questions and
> concerns; and be authentically heard. To do otherwise and the community is
> diminished over time and you lose valuable information and feedback which
> can be gotten from the communituy and used to improve the information on
> site and the product - and provide more value.
I agree.
-- Rodney
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RE: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Flying Cloud <fl...@prodigy.net>.
> > There is a thread on the Jcorporate site under Expresso User forum which
> > discusses our users' thoughts on how they compare; as well as...
>
> Please post the URI...
One thing to bear in mind is that this is from earlier this year and
probably is a little out of date.
http://www.jcorporate.com/servlet/ControllerActionServlet?controller=com.jco
rporate.eforum.controller.Browse&next=/components/eforum/jsp/messages.jsp&st
ate=browseMessages&GroupId=1&ThreadId=142
[As a side note - a search feature will be on site in near future for the
site content, forums, faq, and helpdesk]
To access eServices you must be registered as a user.
Having heard Jon's complaint about this already - I will explain the reason
although we will probably "agree to disagree" ...
1. Considering the forums and other eServices cost Jcorporate money to write
and maintain - it is very good user value that the only cost is
registering - info which is only for internal use. Registering is after all
common practice. And if registering is too much effort there is always the
opensource listserv.
2. Registering enables creating and building a tighter sense of community
building as well as being able to offer more personalization. Registering
allows us to send forum thread postings to the user's email address if they
wish this service. As time goes on it will enable us to provide more
personalized services.
3. Registering also enables the user to see Expresso in action. Expresso
drives virtually everything on site as the foundation technology to the
forum, faq, helpdesk (task lists, bugs, news, projects), econtent management
etc etc. It a live, breathing example of Expresso (we have 1.25M hits or so
onsite); and we are generally the first site to eat our own cooking when a
new release is being prepared. How about your site - what is Turbine used to
drive?
> Yea, I remember you telling me what a genius he was then as
> well...what does
> "genius" mean? Did he get a 1600 on his SAT or something?
Ah...its nice to be remembered :). Michael is very private so suffice it to
say that academically he was exceptionally outstanding. Better yet you have
only to look at his work; or talk to Expresso's contributors to confirm it.
> > Outstanding Group Technical Contribution to the Java Community
> Yawn. No offense, but those awards don't really mean much. JServ
> got lots of
> awards and we all know what a piece of foobar that was. :-)
Interesting perception you have; as I understand it that foobar is what made
Apache known in the corporate world.
We've had a number of awards: both the reader choice awards and the
Sun/JavaPro awards brought considerably more traffic. On the basis of
results I view it as indicative of the value to the community, and feedback
on our work; and certainly better than that indicated by no awards from my
way of thinking. Feedback, both positive and negative is essential to
growing as a product and organization.
> > I'd be interested to hear about the size of the Turbine list
>
> Much much smaller than yours...something like 800 total.
> Although, we don't
> spend any money or energy on advertising. How much do you spend? :-)
We don't spend any money on advertising either.
> >; and how many downloads you have had to date?
>
> I have no idea. We haven't bothered tracking it as we aren't
> trying to make
> money off of our users or justify corporate involvement. :-)
No one using our OSS projects need pay us a dime; and all eServices are
free. Contributors get even more free. I don't understand your issue with
money - it's humorous as surely you live so you do use the stuff to pay for
food, clothes, car etc. ;)
We had to write/maintain a servlet to perform this count; and while this was
an investment of time we felt it be part of good management of the project.
It is often helpful to users to be able to gauge the project's maturity and
acceptance - especially when corporate personnel need to justify their
decisions. Heck 90% or more of the people using the community OSS work are
corporate. It is also useful so that we have a gauge to know how well we
are doing. It's like taking the temperature on a given afternoon. Over time
it provides a relative indication.
On another note, I'd like to add that is very important to Jcorporate and
our user community to build on shared OSS standards projects such as Log4J,
JUnit, Bouncycastle, Xerces, Xalan, Struts and others. Struts being the
latest integration that we just completed. All things considered with what
M$ is doing it would be ideal in the interest of promoting Java in the
marketplace to look at what we are all doing and align so that we build on
each other's work and strengths rather than recreating wheels. To work
together as an industry.
In closing I'd like to add that my personal believe is that people deserve
respect, and preferably thoughfulness and consideration. Most people's lives
are busy and as busy as our own!!! No matter how busy we are, being rude is
unnecessary and undesireable! It is desireable to create a healthy, creative
communities where people can safely express their ideas, questions and
concerns; and be authentically heard. To do otherwise and the community is
diminished over time and you lose valuable information and feedback which
can be gotten from the communituy and used to improve the information on
site and the product - and provide more value.
Sandra Cann
scann@jcorporate.com
"Our separation from each other is an optical illusion of consciousness.
(Albert Einstein)"
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 8/24/01 1:51 PM, "Flying Cloud" <fl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso
>> framework compares to Turbine ?
>
> Turbine and Expresso have historically taken different approaches and it
> really depends on what you are doing which will determine which is more
> suitable to your needs. I would explore both as part of your evaluation.
> There is a thread on the Jcorporate site under Expresso User forum which
> discusses our users' thoughts on how they compare; as well as in the Turbine
> archives from earlier this year. It might be best to try them both on for
> size.
Please post the URI...
> Gosh darn Jon, forget me so soon? ;) I was the tall, slender, good looking
> brunette you met at Apachecon in Orlando. You met me and 4 other members of
> our Jcorporate team at an ApacheCon and talked for quite some time with you
> about Turbine and Expresso. You were actually charming in person, a contrast
> to your bark online ;).
:-)
> More seriously though, Expresso is a framework done by a team of 24 members,
> with Michael Nash being the lead developer. Michael is a genius and good
> leader and we are very grateful to have him managing the project.
Yea, I remember you telling me what a genius he was then as well...what does
"genius" mean? Did he get a 1600 on his SAT or something?
> The Expresso team received recognition by Sun and JavaPro magazine during
> JavaOne this year being the recipient of the prestigious 2001 Java Community
> Award for *Outstanding Group Technical Contribution to the Java Community*,
> at the Third Annual Java Technology Achievement Awards event. This award was
> one of 5 Java Community Awards for 2001.
Yawn. No offense, but those awards don't really mean much. JServ got lots of
awards and we all know what a piece of foobar that was. :-)
> I'd be interested to hear about the size of the Turbine list
Much much smaller than yours...something like 800 total. Although, we don't
spend any money or energy on advertising. How much do you spend? :-)
>; and how many downloads you have had to date?
I have no idea. We haven't bothered tracking it as we aren't trying to make
money off of our users or justify corporate involvement. :-)
p.s. It sucks that I have to login in order to see your CVS server, read the
FAQ, etc...<http://www.jcorporate.com/servlet/ShowResource?resource=104>
-jon
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RE: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Flying Cloud <fl...@prodigy.net>.
> > Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso
> framework compares to Turbine ?
Turbine and Expresso have historically taken different approaches and it
really depends on what you are doing which will determine which is more
suitable to your needs. I would explore both as part of your evaluation.
There is a thread on the Jcorporate site under Expresso User forum which
discusses our users' thoughts on how they compare; as well as in the Turbine
archives from earlier this year. It might be best to try them both on for
size.
> Expresso is a framework done by a "corporation" of one employee...Michael
> Nash.
Gosh darn Jon, forget me so soon? ;) I was the tall, slender, good looking
brunette you met at Apachecon in Orlando. You met me and 4 other members of
our Jcorporate team at an ApacheCon and talked for quite some time with you
about Turbine and Expresso. You were actually charming in person, a contrast
to your bark online ;).
More seriously though, Expresso is a framework done by a team of 24 members,
with Michael Nash being the lead developer. Michael is a genius and good
leader and we are very grateful to have him managing the project.
The Expresso team received recognition by Sun and JavaPro magazine during
JavaOne this year being the recipient of the prestigious 2001 Java Community
Award for *Outstanding Group Technical Contribution to the Java Community*,
at the Third Annual Java Technology Achievement Awards event. This award was
one of 5 Java Community Awards for 2001.
> The best quote from the Enhydra site is:
> "One of the things that puzzles me about Expresso is that for an
> open-source
> framework that claims a community of more than 3000 developers,
> the mailing
> list is a mere trickle."
It is understandable that our listserv has less traffic because we also have
online forums which messages are posted to. The listserv has about 15-20
messages per day plus those messages posted to the active various forums.
The developers forum is especially active. We pride ourselves on the quality
of the listserv and forums, and the respect in which people are treated. We
presently have 3678 developers subscribed to the listserv. I have no problem
substantiating this figure via our hosting company if you doubt it.
Jcorporate offers both a listserv as well as online forums for users,
developers, core developers, CVS checkins etc etc (which can send posting
via email too). The great thing about forums is that users can decide if
they want to check the discussions onsite and/or have the postings mailed to
them. This gives users more options - offering both pull and push methods
for getting information they need. Both the listserv and the forums are
active with fresh "meat".
> Maybe Mr. Nash would like to comment as he is subscribed to this list. :-)
Since you ask... (although I am not he) ;)
Expresso has more than 62,000 downloads to date as we prepare for the
release of Expresso 4.0. Expresso 4.0ea was released last week and is now
fully
integrated with Apache Struts!
With Release 4.0ea Expresso has made Controller objects available to Struts
as Actions, so the URL mapping, configuration, and other great capabilities
of Struts are available - with all of the advantages that Expresso standard
Web application functionality provides such as Controller object, DBObjects
(object-relational mapping), configuration management, security, database
connection pooling, email connectivity, job control, logging, event
notification, caching, internationalization, and more. The Controller
servlet (ActionServlet) still handles dispatching, then the specific
Controller object provides the UI-independant business logic.
For more information:
http://www.jcorporate.com/components/internal/projframe.jsp?category=65
I'd be interested to hear about the size of the Turbine list; and how many
downloads you have had to date?
Sandra Cann
scann@jcorporate.com
COO, www.jcorporate.com
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 8/24/01 5:16 PM, "Michael Nash" <mn...@jcorporate.com> wrote:
> I can certainly supply detailed comparison info if anyone is looking (we
> have a comparison matrix on our site too - probably out of date for both
> Expresso and Turbine!) - consider the source of course, but like to think I
> look at all approaches impartially :-)
Please! I think someone is looking.
> Only having done a few small applications with Turbine I cannot comment on
> comparison of ease of use in large projects, although I'm sure many other
> can - my only thought would be that in terms of getting an application up &
> running one of our contributors to Expresso has a service (free) called
> WebAppWriter - you feed it your specification and an Expresso application
> (source of course) is generated for you - pretty quick to get up & going.
>
> I think the two frameworks aim at a slightly different area technically -
> although there is clearly some overlap in some areas.
We have the Turbine Developers Kit which includes sample applications.
> No, we are hardly a corporation of one, nor is Expresso done by me alone -
> the remainder of our over 30 core contributors would be quite suprised to
> hear it :-) Jon, I think your info on me and my company might be rather out
> of date!
>
> There are indeed days when I *wish* it was just me in the corporation,
> wouldn't life be simple then :-)
I'm curious. How many full time paid employees does JavaCorporate employ?
> I think part of it is also that by and large Expresso users are off
> developing their own specific applications, not so much actually working on
> Expresso itself - although that's changed recently (and list traffic went
> way up) as of the major enhancements we're doing for our latest version.
Great!
> I think it's always interesting to compare different approaches, and I'd be
> happy to describe more about Expresso and how it compares/differs from
> Turbine to anyone that's interested. As always, it's just a matter of the
> best tool for the job, and more choices is always better than less, right?
I agree!
-jon
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RE: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Michael Nash <mn...@jcorporate.com>.
Jon:
> > Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso
> framework compares to
> > Turbine ?
I can certainly supply detailed comparison info if anyone is looking (we
have a comparison matrix on our site too - probably out of date for both
Expresso and Turbine!) - consider the source of course, but like to think I
look at all approaches impartially :-)
> > I've been developing with Turbine for almost a year, but now my
> > hype-controlled boss has discovered Expresso.
> > It looks a lot more complex and a lot less easy to use.... does
> anyone has any
> > experience with it ?
Only having done a few small applications with Turbine I cannot comment on
comparison of ease of use in large projects, although I'm sure many other
can - my only thought would be that in terms of getting an application up &
running one of our contributors to Expresso has a service (free) called
WebAppWriter - you feed it your specification and an Expresso application
(source of course) is generated for you - pretty quick to get up & going.
I think the two frameworks aim at a slightly different area technically -
although there is clearly some overlap in some areas.
> >
> > Age
>
> Expresso is a framework done by a "corporation" of one employee...Michael
> Nash.
No, we are hardly a corporation of one, nor is Expresso done by me alone -
the remainder of our over 30 core contributors would be quite suprised to
hear it :-) Jon, I think your info on me and my company might be rather out
of date!
There are indeed days when I *wish* it was just me in the corporation,
wouldn't life be simple then :-)
>
> :-)
>
> The best quote from the Enhydra site is:
>
> "One of the things that puzzles me about Expresso is that for an
> open-source
> framework that claims a community of more than 3000 developers,
> the mailing
> list is a mere trickle."
Our primary traffic is in our forums, but it's true that we don't have much
traffic on our general mailing list - we tend to take discussions to
individual forums for the details, but our forums also copy to email
addresses if you want them to.
I think part of it is also that by and large Expresso users are off
developing their own specific applications, not so much actually working on
Expresso itself - although that's changed recently (and list traffic went
way up) as of the major enhancements we're doing for our latest version.
> :-)
>
> Maybe Mr. Nash would like to comment as he is subscribed to this list. :-)
I think it's always interesting to compare different approaches, and I'd be
happy to describe more about Expresso and how it compares/differs from
Turbine to anyone that's interested. As always, it's just a matter of the
best tool for the job, and more choices is always better than less, right?
Please, anyone feel free to drop me a line for any details, I won't chew up
any more of everyone's valuable bandwidth!
Regards,
Mike
Jcorporate Ltd.
http://www.jcorporate.com
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Re: Expresso comparison ?
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 8/21/01 4:00 AM, "Age Mooy" <am...@home.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone have any info on how JCorporate's Expresso framework compares to
> Turbine ?
> I've been developing with Turbine for almost a year, but now my
> hype-controlled boss has discovered Expresso.
> It looks a lot more complex and a lot less easy to use.... does anyone has any
> experience with it ?
>
> Age
Expresso is a framework done by a "corporation" of one employee...Michael
Nash.
:-)
The best quote from the Enhydra site is:
"One of the things that puzzles me about Expresso is that for an open-source
framework that claims a community of more than 3000 developers, the mailing
list is a mere trickle."
:-)
Maybe Mr. Nash would like to comment as he is subscribed to this list. :-)
thanks,
-jon
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