You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> on 2014/05/19 09:34:58 UTC
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant
to criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally
find useful.
There are however situations where styles might not help. For
example, when troubleshooting document formatting problems such
as page or section options, or when special (manual) character
formatting has been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where
"reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal
codes" was used by someone other than the original author...
funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main
reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect
was the standard!
Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is
in the "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two
tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in
OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what
people asking for "Reveal codes" might find useful.
As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already
suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not
necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this
is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not
understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the program.
Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can
"take the user's perspective" is to listen to end users
themselves. Ideally... without expecting them to be computer
literate or (worse) accusing them to not put in the necessary
time/effort to learn how to use the program.
Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as
end (& dumb? :-) users.
marina
---
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
@martadiello
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 19 May 2014, at 03:34, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find useful.
>
> As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the program.
Ah, but WordPress creates HTML pages - open one in a text editor and all is revealed [a knowledge of html is a prerequisite].
I am not amongst those who are demanding the 'reveal codes' feature - at least now, but I do think that an essential part of the development process IS providing useful tutorials or guides in addition to reference manuals. Arcane reference manuals went out in the late 1960's!
jt - digital curmudgeon since the mid 1950's.
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
yes, voting is how you officially indicate your interest
On 05/23/2014 03:39 AM, Helen wrote:
> I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I
> ran across this.
>
>
> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <
> andrew@pitonyak.org> wrote:
>
>> On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
>>
>>> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires
>>> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
>>> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
>>> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
>>> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
>>>
>> That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
>> need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
>> implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
>> knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
>> to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
>> software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
>> energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
>> must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
>> usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
>> saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.
>>
>> Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
>> hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
>> CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.
>>
>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
>>
>> So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
>> Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
>> WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
>> put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little
>> spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
>> that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
>> handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
>> lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
>> requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
>> towards it.
>>
>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395
>>
>>
>>> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
>>> Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
>>> a very helpful tool.
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>> --
>> Andrew Pitonyak
>> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
>> Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Helen <et...@gmail.com>.
I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I
ran across this.
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <
andrew@pitonyak.org> wrote:
>
> On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
>
>> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires
>> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
>> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
>> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
>> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
>>
>
> That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
> need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
> implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
> knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
> to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
> software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
> energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
> must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
> usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
> saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.
>
> Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
> hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
> CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
>
> So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
> Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
> WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
> put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little
> spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
> that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
> handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
> lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
> requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
> towards it.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395
>
>
>> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
>> Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
>> a very helpful tool.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>
> --
> Andrew Pitonyak
> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
> Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Helen Etters
using Linux, suse12.3
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Jim McLaughlin <jj...@gmail.com>.
All the more reason why the open source community operating under the
Apache umbrella should add a "Reveal Codes" analog to OO.
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:
>
>> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
>> what is the problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux.
> (WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest
> Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.)
>
> --doug
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:
> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
> what is the problem?
>
>
>
The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux.
(WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest
Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.)
--doug
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 19 May 2014, at 09:38, 許哲崇 <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
> what is the problem?
lack of a current wordperfect and why should we pay for it if we are committed to OO? jt
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:
> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
> what is the problem?
No problem at all... :-)
The potential issue is that loading in a different editor will cause
slightly different things to be displayed (at least that is my
experience based on different formats, especially if there is something
tricky or complicated about the text).
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by 許哲崇 <fi...@gmail.com>.
If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?
2014-05-19 20:17 GMT+08:00 Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>:
>
> On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
>
>> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires
>> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
>> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
>> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
>> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
>>
>
> That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
> need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
> implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
> knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
> to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
> software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
> energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
> must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
> usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
> saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.
>
> Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
> hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
> CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
>
> So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
> Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
> WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
> put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little
> spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
> that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
> handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
> lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
> requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
> towards it.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395
>
>
>
>> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
>> Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
>> a very helpful tool.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>
> --
> Andrew Pitonyak
> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
> Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which
> requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable
> their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules
> or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code
> feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of
> creating conflicts.
That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate
the need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more
difficult to implement. I think that the real problem is that it
requires a knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code
the solution) to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all,
community developed software. So, the trick is to convince a particular
person to spend time / energy on that particular feature. In this case,
it means that the feature must be first designed, since a design does
not exist, and, the general usage pattern is sufficiently different,
that it is not obvious to me that saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.
Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on
the CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for
implementation.
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the
feature. WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want
it enough to put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels
a little spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do
not know that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't
have a handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list,
and I lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative
to other requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their
votes towards it.
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395
>
> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view
> code. Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing
> the codes is a very helpful tool.
>
> Jack
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Steve's G-Mail <st...@gmail.com>.
Allow me to add my 'two-pence worth’ to this important discussion.
Seems to me that it has been well-explained earlier that a ‘reveal codes’-like solution (apparently as in WordPerfect) is not readily achievable within OO, as the formatting controls of OO don’t lend themselves to such a solution (either technically, or in a way that would enable users to achieve what they want).
IMHO, it’s clear from this correspondence that getting formats right can be a difficult task for many users, both casual and not (I regard myself as mid-point, but it can be difficult and frustrating - I don’t knowingly use styles). I particularly find nested lists (very difficult to achieve consistently to what I want (although I’m a big fan of OO generally).
I recommend the approach to the OO development team to start with a requirement to improve the formatting handling (particularly lists) - maybe that simple requirement can be generally shared by most contributors - without mandating any particular solution. That should give the developers the licence to examine any type of solution that will improve this apparently contentious and difficult area.
Best to all, Steve
On 19 May 2014, at 11:11, japples <ja...@europa.com> wrote:
> So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
>
> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code. Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a very helpful tool.
>
> Jack
>
>
> mt wrote:
>> Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful.
>>
>> There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, when troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or section options, or when special (manual) character formatting has been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone other than the original author... funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect was the standard!
>>
>> Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find useful.
>>
>> As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the program.
>>
>> Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take the user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves. Ideally... without expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) accusing them to not put in the necessary time/effort to learn how to use the program.
>>
>> Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (& dumb? :-) users.
>>
>> marina
>> ---
>> MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
>> @martadiello
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14
>>
>>
>>
Best Regards,
Steve Caine
-------------------------------------------
List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
So far, this conversation boils down to: use only styles which requires
casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which
is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view
code. Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the
codes is a very helpful tool.
Jack
mt wrote:
> Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to
> criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful.
>
> There are however situations where styles might not help. For example,
> when troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or
> section options, or when special (manual) character formatting has
> been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can
> come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone
> other than the original author... funny this has never been mentioned,
> given that it was the main reason why we had to use "Reveal codes"
> back when WordPerfect was the standard!
>
> Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the
> "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual |
> Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my
> understanding that something like that is what people asking for
> "Reveal codes" might find useful.
>
> As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested,
> these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily
> mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to
> be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know,
> about the "inner workings" of the program.
>
> Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take
> the user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves.
> Ideally... without expecting them to be computer literate or (worse)
> accusing them to not put in the necessary time/effort to learn how to
> use the program.
>
> Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (&
> dumb? :-) users.
>
> marina
> ---
> MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
> @martadiello
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14
>
>
>