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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Kasper Nielsen <ne...@kav.dk> on 2002/06/27 17:33:26 UTC
User requirements for A5
Hi,
I was wondering why aren't there a little more of this on tomcat-dev,
struts-dev, commons, general,....
> Okay guys, we are making this great 'new' framework (A5) that we hope most
projects on jakarta/xml will use.
> WHAT will it take for you guys to start using it, WHAT kind of
improvements would you like to see.
instead of
> Hey Guys, why don't you use Avalon on your next great project, its the
best thing since sliced bread.
Giving people the chance to participate from the beginning is much better
the coming when its done and say 'hey why don't you use our product'.
Perhaps people will not have much to contribute but as long as they feel
they are somewhat involved I'm sure some of the other projects can see the
light.
- Kasper
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Marcus Crafter <cr...@fztig938.bank.dresdner.net>.
On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:54:44PM +0200, Leo Sutic wrote:
> ...
>
> That's a good question. If this has already been tried I am
> not aware of it.
>
> If nothing else, we wouldn't have to guess "what the users want".
>
> Now that we have a users list why not use it?
>
> How about posting this in avalon-users, and maybe cocoon-dev:
+1, would be good to hear more user feedback.
Cheers,
Marcus
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$: $$$$: ManageSoft GmbH
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RE: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
At 02:18 AM 6/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>- First and most important is direction. With all that is changing I
>really don't know where to go and it doesn't seem there is anything
>solid right now from which to work (am I wrong?).
Everything is solid now. There has not been any backwards compatible breaks
or anything in framework stuff since it was released.
>An example is the
>ComponentManager code examples, which should now move to ServiceManager,
>but what container uses SM?
I think all of them now.
>- Second (and I admit I didn't follow this closely) was there seemed to
>be some changes in the structure and/or generation of the site.
I believe the jakarta-avalon/ CVS updated to latest cocoon which broke the
site generation on all the other CVSes. I have started moving everything I
work on to anakia.
>- Third, when will the site be updated??
Every 6 hours ;)
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Kasper Nielsen wrote:
>>Might as well start somewhere: Kasper, what would you like to see in A5?
>>
>>/LS
>
> cool
>
> 1. End to the naming madness
> Excalibur, Phoenix, Cornerstone,.... It takes me about 2 min from when I
> read the description of each to when i've forgotten what the names cover,
> why not call Phoenix -> AvalonApplicationServer (AAS) , Cornersone -> AAS
> Services, ... or something else meaningfull.
> Giving each top project on jakarta a 'funny' name is great, but giving every
> subproject in every topproject a 'funny' name is confusing.
> You know people sometimes have a problem separating Turbine and Velocity
> (Turbine questions on the Velocity mailing lists and Velocity questions on
> the Turbine list). If people aren't able to separate these two projects, Í
> doubt they will be able to separate the various Avalon sub-projects
I tend to agree.
What we could do is something like:
- Avalon Framework
- Avalon Containers (codename excalibur)
- educational (codename tweety)
- micro (codename micro)
- basic (codename fortress)
- server (codename phoenix)
- Avalon Services (codename cornerstone)
> 2. Create a Avalon Development Kit (we have it in Turbine land and its
> called TDK )
> ADK should contain
> - all Jar's needed to develop a project,
> - a couple of examples.
> - All API documentation + manuals
> - They must be a quick way to start a new project something that would only
> require something like 'ant newproject' and it would create a directory
> structure, setup a build.xml file, copy the jars needed, ... a simple ant
> script and newapp.propertyfile is all that is needed.
+1
I would like to see one for each type of container.
> 3. JSR 111
> Someday the Java Service Framework is going to show up. A5 needs to
> compatible in some way to it. And people needs to be aware of it.
> I saw that you Berin (and Paul) is in the Expert group whats the status?
:-?
> 4. Market Penetration (or the lack of it)
> Some articles in javaworld, sdmagazine, TheServerSide would do wonders for
> letting people know that avalon exists.
+1000
> 5. Logkit
> People are worried about using technology that doesn't comply with
> standards, having a subproject entirely devoted to logging could make people
> believe that they are taking the path directly to the dark side. If I first
> discovered Avalon (and logkit) I would also think it was out of date since
> it doesn't mention jdk 1.4 logging
+1
IMHO it should be part of Avalon Services.
> 6. Webservice
> Okay its a buzzword, but everybody body is talking about it, how can I
> easily make my components into a webservice
>
>
> btw
> 1. why don't remove the link to Testlet, it was discontinued on 1. august
> 2001, im sure nobody uses it anymore.
+1
> 2. The link to jakarta main on http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/ should
> point to http://jakarta.apache.org/
;-)
--
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- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Pete Carapetyan <pe...@datafundamentals.com>.
Robert wrote:
>Not sure if you are actually taking user requirements or not, but here
>is my .02....
>
>I agree with Kasper's comments on the naming madness
>
<bigSnip/>
>>>From a useability point of view, I would caution against the 'ultimate'
>container and setup. You would probably run into the eventual problems
>that face EJB servers now, namely hard to configure and use. I currently
>use ECM because it was simple to use and I don't mind moving to its
>eventual replacement as long as it is simple to use as well. I don't
>mind config files and meta-data, but please make the container APIs easy
>to use.
>
<note>
Another vote for the simple-dumb-elegant approach from a
non-committer ! Like Peter Donald says, less is more.
</note>
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RE: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Robert <rm...@bull-enterprises.com>.
Not sure if you are actually taking user requirements or not, but here
is my .02....
I agree with Kasper's comments on the naming madness, but cannot
actually offer suggestions at the moment :-)
Documentation:
I have read quite a bit of the discussions on "What is Avalon" and
others, and from a user's perspective, I really, really like Avalon and
(as I've mentioned before) am promoting it internally for our product.
Having said that, the biggest 'problem' I've seen is lack of really good
documentation, which I'm sure no one will really argue with, and a
confusion with all the various sub-projects and half done, forgotten(?)
and/or not mentioned components that I find in CVS.
Now, I have volunteered to do some doc work (I fixed link #2 about 2
months ago Kasper...), but stopped for a couple of reasons (but I would
really like to continue):
- First and most important is direction. With all that is changing I
really don't know where to go and it doesn't seem there is anything
solid right now from which to work (am I wrong?). An example is the
ComponentManager code examples, which should now move to ServiceManager,
but what container uses SM? I know that is a relatively simple question,
but you (hopefully) get the idea.
- Second (and I admit I didn't follow this closely) was there seemed to
be some changes in the structure and/or generation of the site.
- Third, when will the site be updated??
On Containers:
I've kind of lost track of the discussions on the various containers,
but it would be nice if there were either some consolidation on these,
or at least what is really available and at what scale. I know about
Phoenix, ECM (which is going by the wayside as I understand it),
Fortress (no experience), Merlin (no experience), and I've forgotten
probably one or two...
>From a useability point of view, I would caution against the 'ultimate'
container and setup. You would probably run into the eventual problems
that face EJB servers now, namely hard to configure and use. I currently
use ECM because it was simple to use and I don't mind moving to its
eventual replacement as long as it is simple to use as well. I don't
mind config files and meta-data, but please make the container APIs easy
to use. I've seen all the discussions about what to do with
ComponentManager, release(), lookup(), etc. and personally from my
perspective I don't care as long as it remains fairly simple to use. If
I were one of the developers of course I would care as those things are
important, so I would agree that coming up with the API should take some
thought and not be changed in every version that comes out.
Components:
While I realize that the core APIs are being discussed heavily, what's
up with all the other 'stuff', such as the Cache pckg (is there an
actual component there?), Monitor, naming, etc. Which components are
ready for use? Maybe having something on the site saying that component
XYZ is 'certified' for use with Avalone 4.x, 5.x, Phoenix, Fortress,
etc. would be really nice instead of just saying that XYZ is available
in CVS.
Examples:
I really like the idea of a dev. kit with examples and such. I know this
would take some work, but would be really helpful for newbies.
Market Penetration:
Of course any good publicity would be wonderful, and I've actually
approached my boss about writing an article about Avalon and our use of
it.
- Robert McIntosh
-----Original Message-----
From: Kasper Nielsen [mailto:news@kav.dk]
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:03 PM
To: Avalon Developers List
Subject: Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
>
> Might as well start somewhere: Kasper, what would you like to see in
A5?
>
> /LS
cool
1. End to the naming madness
Excalibur, Phoenix, Cornerstone,.... It takes me about 2 min from when I
read the description of each to when i've forgotten what the names
cover,
why not call Phoenix -> AvalonApplicationServer (AAS) , Cornersone ->
AAS
Services, ... or something else meaningfull.
Giving each top project on jakarta a 'funny' name is great, but giving
every
subproject in every topproject a 'funny' name is confusing.
You know people sometimes have a problem separating Turbine and Velocity
(Turbine questions on the Velocity mailing lists and Velocity questions
on
the Turbine list). If people aren't able to separate these two projects,
Í
doubt they will be able to separate the various Avalon sub-projects
2. Create a Avalon Development Kit (we have it in Turbine land and its
called TDK )
ADK should contain
- all Jar's needed to develop a project,
- a couple of examples.
- All API documentation + manuals
- They must be a quick way to start a new project something that would
only
require something like 'ant newproject' and it would create a directory
structure, setup a build.xml file, copy the jars needed, ... a simple
ant
script and newapp.propertyfile is all that is needed.
3. JSR 111
Someday the Java Service Framework is going to show up. A5 needs to
compatible in some way to it. And people needs to be aware of it.
I saw that you Berin (and Paul) is in the Expert group whats the status?
4. Market Penetration (or the lack of it)
Some articles in javaworld, sdmagazine, TheServerSide would do wonders
for
letting people know that avalon exists.
5. Logkit
People are worried about using technology that doesn't comply with
standards, having a subproject entirely devoted to logging could make
people
believe that they are taking the path directly to the dark side. If I
first
discovered Avalon (and logkit) I would also think it was out of date
since
it doesn't mention jdk 1.4 logging
6. Webservice
Okay its a buzzword, but everybody body is talking about it, how can I
easily make my components into a webservice
btw
1. why don't remove the link to Testlet, it was discontinued on 1.
august
2001, im sure nobody uses it anymore.
2. The link to jakarta main on http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/ should
point to http://jakarta.apache.org/
- Kasper
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Kasper Nielsen <ne...@kav.dk>.
>
> Might as well start somewhere: Kasper, what would you like to see in A5?
>
> /LS
cool
1. End to the naming madness
Excalibur, Phoenix, Cornerstone,.... It takes me about 2 min from when I
read the description of each to when i've forgotten what the names cover,
why not call Phoenix -> AvalonApplicationServer (AAS) , Cornersone -> AAS
Services, ... or something else meaningfull.
Giving each top project on jakarta a 'funny' name is great, but giving every
subproject in every topproject a 'funny' name is confusing.
You know people sometimes have a problem separating Turbine and Velocity
(Turbine questions on the Velocity mailing lists and Velocity questions on
the Turbine list). If people aren't able to separate these two projects, Í
doubt they will be able to separate the various Avalon sub-projects
2. Create a Avalon Development Kit (we have it in Turbine land and its
called TDK )
ADK should contain
- all Jar's needed to develop a project,
- a couple of examples.
- All API documentation + manuals
- They must be a quick way to start a new project something that would only
require something like 'ant newproject' and it would create a directory
structure, setup a build.xml file, copy the jars needed, ... a simple ant
script and newapp.propertyfile is all that is needed.
3. JSR 111
Someday the Java Service Framework is going to show up. A5 needs to
compatible in some way to it. And people needs to be aware of it.
I saw that you Berin (and Paul) is in the Expert group whats the status?
4. Market Penetration (or the lack of it)
Some articles in javaworld, sdmagazine, TheServerSide would do wonders for
letting people know that avalon exists.
5. Logkit
People are worried about using technology that doesn't comply with
standards, having a subproject entirely devoted to logging could make people
believe that they are taking the path directly to the dark side. If I first
discovered Avalon (and logkit) I would also think it was out of date since
it doesn't mention jdk 1.4 logging
6. Webservice
Okay its a buzzword, but everybody body is talking about it, how can I
easily make my components into a webservice
btw
1. why don't remove the link to Testlet, it was discontinued on 1. august
2001, im sure nobody uses it anymore.
2. The link to jakarta main on http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/ should
point to http://jakarta.apache.org/
- Kasper
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Thursday 27 June 2002 11:54 am, Leo Sutic wrote:
> ...
>
> That's a good question. If this has already been tried I am
> not aware of it.
>
> If nothing else, we wouldn't have to guess "what the users want".
>
> Now that we have a users list why not use it?
>
> How about posting this in avalon-users, and maybe cocoon-dev:
+1!
-pete
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> On Thursday 27 June 2002 12:37 pm, Leo Simons wrote:
> > how about putting it in the newsletter?
>
> Yes! Speaking of which we probably need to designate a newslettermeister.
> -pete
yup. I wanted to volunteer but I'll be going away for the weekend in
approx. 2 hours. Who's got the time and english skills?
grz,
- Leo
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Thursday 27 June 2002 12:37 pm, Leo Simons wrote:
> how about putting it in the newsletter?
Yes! Speaking of which we probably need to designate a newslettermeister.
-pete
ps i missed the newsletter msg to avalon-dev, i saw in on commons-dev...
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Thursday 27 June 2002 01:06 pm, Kasper Nielsen wrote:
> I don't think putting it in a newsletter is enough.
> Having a post in a *-dev group is a much better way to address a specifik
> group of people.
> Putting it _only_ in a newsletter won't make anyone feel 'directly'
> addressed.
I agree. My understanding was the newsletter would be in addition to direct
queries to known user groups.
-pete
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Kasper Nielsen <ne...@kav.dk>.
I don't think putting it in a newsletter is enough.
Having a post in a *-dev group is a much better way to address a specifik
group of people.
Putting it _only_ in a newsletter won't make anyone feel 'directly'
addressed.
- Kasper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Berin Loritsch" <bl...@apache.org>
To: "'Avalon Developers List'" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Vote] User requirements for A5
> > From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org]
> >
> > how about putting it in the newsletter?
>
> Good thinking!
>
>
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RE: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
> From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org]
>
> how about putting it in the newsletter?
Good thinking!
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
how about putting it in the newsletter?
- LSD
On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 17:54, Leo Sutic wrote:
> ...
>
> That's a good question. If this has already been tried I am
> not aware of it.
>
> If nothing else, we wouldn't have to guess "what the users want".
>
> Now that we have a users list why not use it?
>
> How about posting this in avalon-users, and maybe cocoon-dev:
>
> -----------------------------
> All,
>
> lately the avalon-dev list has been through a storm of ideas
> for the next version of Avalon Framework. During this brainstorming
> session we have come up with some fairly good ideas (*we* think so
> anyway) - some of them quite radical, some more conservative.
>
> Will you like them? Well, that's the problem. We have no idea if
> you - the users of Avalon - like the ideas, because we lack
> your input.
>
> So what would you like to see in Avalon 5.0? What were the best
> features in Avalon 4.0? What were the worst? What would you
> like to see improved?
>
> Of special interest is the view of the total newbie. What was/is
> the greatest problem you faced when you first tried to use Avalon?
> Lack of documentation? ECM too big? Dependencies?
>
> If you are not using Avalon, but have made your way over here
> to evaluate the project: What will it take for you to start
> using it?
>
> -----------END------------------------------
>
> Might as well start somewhere: Kasper, what would you like to see in A5?
>
> /LS
>
> > From: Kasper Nielsen [mailto:news@kav.dk]
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was wondering why aren't there a little more of this on
> > tomcat-dev, struts-dev, commons, general,....
> >
> > > Okay guys, we are making this great 'new' framework (A5)
> > that we hope
> > > most
> > projects on jakarta/xml will use.
> > > WHAT will it take for you guys to start using it, WHAT kind of
> > improvements would you like to see.
>
>
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Re: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@osm.net>.
I think its a good idea to get this out to the user list - but I don;t
think it should be under the banner of A5. A5 implies an inconsitency
with A4 - when in fact much of the A5 discussion has been about
evolution and the majority of that evolution is within the scope of A4.
I would relly like the "request-for-information" to be neutrual
relative to version issues - structured around evolutiojn, enhancement,
etc. - but no implication of a version jump.
Cheers, Steve.
Leo Sutic wrote:
>...
>
>That's a good question. If this has already been tried I am
>not aware of it.
>
>If nothing else, we wouldn't have to guess "what the users want".
>
>Now that we have a users list why not use it?
>
>How about posting this in avalon-users, and maybe cocoon-dev:
>
>-----------------------------
>All,
>
>lately the avalon-dev list has been through a storm of ideas
>for the next version of Avalon Framework. During this brainstorming
>session we have come up with some fairly good ideas (*we* think so
>anyway) - some of them quite radical, some more conservative.
>
>Will you like them? Well, that's the problem. We have no idea if
>you - the users of Avalon - like the ideas, because we lack
>your input.
>
>So what would you like to see in Avalon 5.0? What were the best
>features in Avalon 4.0? What were the worst? What would you
>like to see improved?
>
>Of special interest is the view of the total newbie. What was/is
>the greatest problem you faced when you first tried to use Avalon?
>Lack of documentation? ECM too big? Dependencies?
>
>If you are not using Avalon, but have made your way over here
>to evaluate the project: What will it take for you to start
>using it?
>
>-----------END------------------------------
>
>Might as well start somewhere: Kasper, what would you like to see in A5?
>
>/LS
>
>
>
>>From: Kasper Nielsen [mailto:news@kav.dk]
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I was wondering why aren't there a little more of this on
>>tomcat-dev, struts-dev, commons, general,....
>>
>>
>>
>>>Okay guys, we are making this great 'new' framework (A5)
>>>
>>>
>>that we hope
>>
>>
>>>most
>>>
>>>
>>projects on jakarta/xml will use.
>>
>>
>>>WHAT will it take for you guys to start using it, WHAT kind of
>>>
>>>
>>improvements would you like to see.
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
--
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OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
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RE: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:bloritsch@apache.org]
>
> :)
>
> So you think our glass walls could take it?
If they don't, they should have been smashed anyway...
>
> +1 with the following addendum:
I can't really fit the addendum in anywhere in the post as
it is written... It assumes background knowledge of our discussion.
I think it's better to just ask for comments,
without saying anything about what we have been discussing.
> BTW, we should give a taste of the *good* things we have in
> store.
I'm afraid that would put the focus on what we have talked about
and not on getting comments.
I made some changes after Stephen's input:
----------------------------
All,
lately the avalon-dev list has been through a storm of ideas
for the next version of Avalon Framework. During this brainstorming
session we have come up with some fairly good ideas (*we* think so
anyway) - some of them quite radical, some more conservative.
Will you like them? Well, that's the problem. We have no idea if
you - the users of Avalon - like the ideas, because we lack
your input.
So what would you like to see in Avalon? What are the best
features currently in Avalon? What are the worst? What would you
like to see improved?
Of special interest is the view of the total newbie. What was/is
the greatest problem you faced when you first tried to use Avalon?
Lack of documentation? ECM too big? Dependencies?
If you are not using Avalon, but have made your way over here
to evaluate the project: What will it take for you to start
using it?
----------------------------
I have my finger on the trigger, people... Final vote to send
this to avalon-users and cocoon-dev:
+1 from me
/LS
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RE: [Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
> From: Leo Sutic [mailto:leo.sutic@inspireinfrastructure.com]
>
> That's a good question. If this has already been tried I am
> not aware of it.
>
> If nothing else, we wouldn't have to guess "what the users want".
>
> Now that we have a users list why not use it?
>
> How about posting this in avalon-users, and maybe cocoon-dev:
:)
So you think our glass walls could take it?
+1 with the following addendum:
Not only do we consider the user feedback seriously, but the
way we implement the requests needs to be with the best
interests in mind.
Example: marker interfaces are bad due to a number of reasons
already passed around on the list. Meta Data is better. They
both accomplish the same goal, but they represent different
ways to get at the information.
BTW, we should give a taste of the *good* things we have in
store. Just by saying we have all kinds of good things in
store doesn't really help the user:
* We are defining container contracts better so that any component
written to Avalon specs will run in any container.
* We are implementing a standard meta-data system to help
ensure a secure environment, and allow complex component
mappings.
What we *don't* pass on the list is anything where a user may
percieve loss of functionality (like the whole pooling issue).
The idea is to get feedback not hungry cannibles looking for
supple white meat.
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[Vote] User requirements for A5
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
...
That's a good question. If this has already been tried I am
not aware of it.
If nothing else, we wouldn't have to guess "what the users want".
Now that we have a users list why not use it?
How about posting this in avalon-users, and maybe cocoon-dev:
-----------------------------
All,
lately the avalon-dev list has been through a storm of ideas
for the next version of Avalon Framework. During this brainstorming
session we have come up with some fairly good ideas (*we* think so
anyway) - some of them quite radical, some more conservative.
Will you like them? Well, that's the problem. We have no idea if
you - the users of Avalon - like the ideas, because we lack
your input.
So what would you like to see in Avalon 5.0? What were the best
features in Avalon 4.0? What were the worst? What would you
like to see improved?
Of special interest is the view of the total newbie. What was/is
the greatest problem you faced when you first tried to use Avalon?
Lack of documentation? ECM too big? Dependencies?
If you are not using Avalon, but have made your way over here
to evaluate the project: What will it take for you to start
using it?
-----------END------------------------------
Might as well start somewhere: Kasper, what would you like to see in A5?
/LS
> From: Kasper Nielsen [mailto:news@kav.dk]
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering why aren't there a little more of this on
> tomcat-dev, struts-dev, commons, general,....
>
> > Okay guys, we are making this great 'new' framework (A5)
> that we hope
> > most
> projects on jakarta/xml will use.
> > WHAT will it take for you guys to start using it, WHAT kind of
> improvements would you like to see.
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