Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Jacek Laskowski <ja...@laskowski.net.pl>]

On 8/31/06, Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org> wrote:
> Hi Aaron,
>
> finally got time to start poking around JPA plugin. I can compile it
> now, but it requires a patch below to build against the latest JPA
> spec. Not a big fan of SF issue tracker, so I simply put it on the web:
>
> http://people.apache.org/~aadamchik/jpa-plugin-patch.txt

Hi Aaron and Andrus,

The patch caught my attention and got me thinking about the plugin and
where it's being developed.

The first time I read it I thought why Andrus was asking that question
here (yet complaining about SF issue tracker) since the plugin itself
has been developed outside the project? (well, it's for the project,
but it's not part of it, right?). I meant to have asked the question
to Andrus, but then thought it's not him I should ask about it, but
Aaron who *seem* to have made it hard(er) to understand where people
should collaborate about stuff being developed outside, but still
relevant to Geronimo. For me, it should've been asked in the used
mailing list at most if not in the space it's being developed (in this
case, it's SF).

I think the question's already been asked, but will ask again since
the plugin has drawn more attention. Aaron, why can't the plugin
development be conducted here, in sandbox? Does it use a code not
allowed to be in the Geronimo repo?

Jacek

-- 
Jacek Laskowski
http://www.laskowski.net.pl

Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>]

Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Are plugins specific to Geronimo and Geronimo alone?
> If so, then a sub-project might be a nice idea.
> 

Yes...the plugins are specific to Geronimo.

> If not, however, then there is little compelling need
> to make G even more "bloated" with efforts than it is,
> and making it a self-contained project would be best.

Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

Are plugins specific to Geronimo and Geronimo alone?
If so, then a sub-project might be a nice idea.

If not, however, then there is little compelling need
to make G even more "bloated" with efforts than it is,
and making it a self-contained project would be best.

Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Jacek Laskowski <ja...@laskowski.net.pl>]

On 9/1/06, Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org> wrote:
>
> On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:07 AM, Jacek Laskowski wrote:
...
> > It's also disruptive to the community as they need to look it up in
> > their notes where the plugin comes from rather than download it from a
> > Geronimo space. More troublesome. Another factor to take into account.
>
> I would also like to see this plugin developed inside Geronimo, but I
> disagree with the argument above.

Hi Andrus,

(I hope you don't mind that your help for the plugin has been taken as
a reason to talk about the plugin and its dev home)

You *may* disagree with the comment above and you even *should* when
it's in conflict with your thinking, but *I* am part of the community
and *I* feel this way. Unless we talk about it, we won't know the
community's voice (and I don't believe the community is only us -
Andrus, Aaron and me).

> This effort does not undermine G.

That's not what I wrote/thought having written. However, depending on
what aspects we're talking about - technical or community-building - I
can agree and disagree with it, respectively.

It certainly enhances Geronimo (technically), but the way it's being
developed is what worries me and what could undermine Geronimo
(community-building) since it's developed outside by a Geronimo
committer. It's not someone who could have trouble to develop code
here sending patches back and forth, but Aaron who does have the karma
*and* responsibility to keep it here.

Aaron has already pointed out the reasons he decided to have gone this
way, but there was nothing that holds back the JPA development from
being conducted here, in the Geronimo space.

> community in any way and I don't feel like anything has to be
> explained to the users. So let's rephrase it instead of saying that
> Aaron did something wrong (which he did not).

It is my understanding and won't change it unless I hear a reasonable
explanation of it being done in SF.

I'd say AFAIUI there's nothing technical and legal that could prevent
it from being done here and your question has showed to me (and likely
to others) that it's quite confusing to be doing outside.

Just a thought, would you have sent the email to dev@geronimo if the
JPA plugin had *not* been developed by a group of people *not*
connected to Geronimo as close as Aaron is?

> Since there is interest inside G. community to develop this plugin,
> what would it take to bring this code to Geronimo?

Nothing is preventing it from happening, so only Aaron knows the exact answer.

> Plugin development
> is not disruptive to the core engine work (as it can be done entirely
> in parallel), so it doesn't have to follow RTC.

Just to not spur a discussion about the role of RTC and alike (it's
discussed a couple of times), I'd merely point out that any activity
done outside the trunk or bug fixes don't have to be RTCed.

Thanks Andrus for talking your time to talk it over! It helps me much
and I'm pretty sure it will help the whole community. Your patience's
appreciated.

Jacek

-- 
Jacek Laskowski
http://www.laskowski.net.pl

Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>]

On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:07 AM, Jacek Laskowski wrote:

>> Also, recall that the main point of plugins is to facilitate the
>> development of value-added features outside the Geronimo community.
>> There's little point to creating a plugin architecture and then
>> insisting that everyone working on plugins do so in the Geronimo
>> sandbox.
>
> Noone's said so (or I've been misunderstood because of my (copy of)  
> English).
>
> You're *a Geronimo committer* and you ought to keep development of
> Geronimo bits as close as possible. How can we explain our users that
> Geronimo committers develop their code outside when it's permissible
> to do so in the Geronimo tree? You can't simply wear Geronimo hat and
> do things as Aaron wished to (I hope I've got it right). You're a
> teammate and as a Geronimo committer you're supposed to play by
> Geronimo nor your rules.
>
> It's also disruptive to the community as they need to look it up in
> their notes where the plugin comes from rather than download it from a
> Geronimo space. More troublesome. Another factor to take into account.

I would also like to see this plugin developed inside Geronimo, but I  
disagree with the argument above. This effort does not undermine G.  
community in any way and I don't feel like anything has to be  
explained to the users. So let's rephrase it instead of saying that  
Aaron did something wrong (which he did not).

Since there is interest inside G. community to develop this plugin,  
what would it take to bring this code to Geronimo? Plugin development  
is not disruptive to the core engine work (as it can be done entirely  
in parallel), so it doesn't have to follow RTC.

Andrus

Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Jacek Laskowski <ja...@laskowski.net.pl>]

On 9/1/06, Aaron Mulder <am...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

> The main developers who produced the plugin were not Geronimo
> committers, and I had the space available.

You still have here, in the Geronimo repo. You're a Geronimo committer
and you can get as much "as you wish"[*] No need to go outside in this
particular case.

> The TopLink and Hibernate
> implementation plugins could not be developed at Apache, but the core
> JPA plugin could otherwise have been.

That's what I've been asking to be moved here. Also, Dave B's asked
about a similar thing.

> However, I'm not convinced that
> the sandbox is the right place to develop plugins in any case, because
> I plan to actually release them, and I would be skeptical about
> releasing anything from the sandbox -- seems like that would be a
> cheesy end run around RTC.

So, let's create a Geronimo subproject - plugins - and have them
released under the very same rules as devtools is - at the time
plugins wished to.

> Also, recall that the main point of plugins is to facilitate the
> development of value-added features outside the Geronimo community.
> There's little point to creating a plugin architecture and then
> insisting that everyone working on plugins do so in the Geronimo
> sandbox.

Noone's said so (or I've been misunderstood because of my (copy of) English).

You're *a Geronimo committer* and you ought to keep development of
Geronimo bits as close as possible. How can we explain our users that
Geronimo committers develop their code outside when it's permissible
to do so in the Geronimo tree? You can't simply wear Geronimo hat and
do things as Aaron wished to (I hope I've got it right). You're a
teammate and as a Geronimo committer you're supposed to play by
Geronimo nor your rules.

It's also disruptive to the community as they need to look it up in
their notes where the plugin comes from rather than download it from a
Geronimo space. More troublesome. Another factor to take into account.

Jacek

[*] Remember the movie - "The Pricess Bride" you had told me in this
semi-Italian and semi-Polish restaurant in Barcelona? ;-) I could
watch and love it!

-- 
Jacek Laskowski
http://www.laskowski.net.pl

Re: JPA Plugin patch

[Aaron Mulder <am...@alumni.princeton.edu>]

On 8/31/06, Jacek Laskowski <ja...@laskowski.net.pl> wrote:
> Hi Aaron and Andrus,
>
> The patch caught my attention and got me thinking about the plugin and
> where it's being developed.
>
> The first time I read it I thought why Andrus was asking that question
> here (yet complaining about SF issue tracker) since the plugin itself
> has been developed outside the project? (well, it's for the project,
> but it's not part of it, right?). I meant to have asked the question
> to Andrus, but then thought it's not him I should ask about it, but
> Aaron who *seem* to have made it hard(er) to understand where people
> should collaborate about stuff being developed outside, but still
> relevant to Geronimo. For me, it should've been asked in the used
> mailing list at most if not in the space it's being developed (in this
> case, it's SF).
>
> I think the question's already been asked, but will ask again since
> the plugin has drawn more attention. Aaron, why can't the plugin
> development be conducted here, in sandbox? Does it use a code not
> allowed to be in the Geronimo repo?

The main developers who produced the plugin were not Geronimo
committers, and I had the space available.  The TopLink and Hibernate
implementation plugins could not be developed at Apache, but the core
JPA plugin could otherwise have been.  However, I'm not convinced that
the sandbox is the right place to develop plugins in any case, because
I plan to actually release them, and I would be skeptical about
releasing anything from the sandbox -- seems like that would be a
cheesy end run around RTC.

Also, recall that the main point of plugins is to facilitate the
development of value-added features outside the Geronimo community.
There's little point to creating a plugin architecture and then
insisting that everyone working on plugins do so in the Geronimo
sandbox.

Thanks,
     Aaron