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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com> on 2004/02/05 14:43:02 UTC
Forrest and Mathematics
If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically containing
lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can Forrest do far me
regarding the rendering of equations?
=====
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
and Mathematics
University of Exeter
(Laver building room L41, Tel X4465)
___________________________________________________________
BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>.
--- Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org> wrote: > Paul Smith wrote:
> > If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically containing
> > lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can Forrest do far me
> > regarding the rendering of equations?
>
> OK, the representation of matehmatical formulae is not something I
> have
> ever worked with. But it is a problem we here, at the University of
> the
> West Indies, will shortly be facing at some point in the future. So
> lets
> work something out...
>
> I would suggest the thing to do would be to use MathML as the source
> format (embedded in whatever markup language you are using for
> source).
> During conversion to the intermediate format (currently document1.2
> eventually XHTML2) the MathML could be converted to SVG and embedded
> as
> an image. Forrest will then display the SVG as a graphic.
>
> Am I on the right track here?
Sounds fine to me. Conversion to SVG -> display as a graphic will suit
my needs perfectly. However, I should probably mention that some
browsers (Well, Mozilla) are capable of displaying MathML directly, to
the conversion to graphics isn't 100% necessary.
However, I believe browser support for MathML is pretty limited in
general, so generating graphics is probably the right way to go.
>
> Ross
>
=====
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
and Mathematics
University of Exeter
(Laver building room C96, Tel X3990)
___________________________________________________________
BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Paul Smith wrote:
> If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically containing
> lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can Forrest do far me
> regarding the rendering of equations?
OK, the representation of matehmatical formulae is not something I have
ever worked with. But it is a problem we here, at the University of the
West Indies, will shortly be facing at some point in the future. So lets
work something out...
I would suggest the thing to do would be to use MathML as the source
format (embedded in whatever markup language you are using for source).
During conversion to the intermediate format (currently document1.2
eventually XHTML2) the MathML could be converted to SVG and embedded as
an image. Forrest will then display the SVG as a graphic.
Am I on the right track here?
Ross
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Stephan Michels wrote:
> Am Do, den 05.02.2004 schrieb Ross Gardler um 22:16:
>
>>Paul Smith wrote:
>> > Someone tell me where to get started and I'll go :)
>>
>>First of al we need to know that Jeclid does what it says.
>
>
> It does... I am the author.
Hurray! Thanks for a component that looks like it may be really useful
to us.
> MathML works best with Mozilla, and with MathPlayer and IE so lala.
> I wrote the component, where Mozilla doesn't have any MathML support.
> Images for equations are not really beautiful, but it works.
For my use case I cannot rely on the browser having MathML support, so
your solution will be best for me.
> The component render nearly every presentation element of MathML, and
> the content elements can be transformed with a stylesheet.
>
> The reason, why I neglected this project for a while is that I have
> definitely too much concurrent projects running :-/
I think we all know that problem.
OK, so we don't really need to test it, we have the authors word for it
(and that's good enough for me). So we may as well skip the playing with
it in Cocoon and try and bring it straight into Forrest.
I'll play with this in a few days (too many projects syndrome), but if
Paul wants to have a go first please go ahead, as I said, I'll try and
help where I can.
Ross
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org>.
Am Do, den 05.02.2004 schrieb Ross Gardler um 22:16:
> Paul Smith wrote:
> > Someone tell me where to get started and I'll go :)
>
> First of al we need to know that Jeclid does what it says.
It does... I am the author.
> That is we
> need to be sure we can get it working with Forrest and spitting out SVG
> from a MAthML input. Probably best to work in Cocoon first, we'll worry
> about how to put it in Forrest later (not sure if it should be part of
> the main distribution, MathML seems a little specialised for that).
>
> Can you try and get the component running in Cocoon/
MathML works best with Mozilla, and with MathPlayer and IE so lala.
I wrote the component, where Mozilla doesn't have any MathML support.
Images for equations are not really beautiful, but it works.
The component render nearly every presentation element of MathML, and
the content elements can be transformed with a stylesheet.
The reason, why I neglected this project for a while is that I have
definitely too much concurrent projects running :-/
Stephan.
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Paul Smith wrote:
> --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Paul Smith
> wrote:
>
>>>If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically containing
>>>lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can Forrest do far me
>>>regarding the rendering of equations?
>>
>>It should be technically possible and not to hard, as
>>http://jeuclid.sf.net/ ha support for Cocoon.
>
>
> I can't find anything on this page that links to a download or similar.
> Anyone got an alternative URL?
Just go to the main sourceforge page, search for jeuclid project,
downloads are available there.
>>What is needed is just a soul that has the will to implement it in
>>Forrest :-)
>
>
> Well - It's certainly interesting enough for me to try, but I've not
> mucked around with Forrest internals before, so there's probably too
> much of a learning curve for me to do it alone, but I'm willing to help
> where I can here!
I'll be willing to help out as much as I can, we will need this in a few
months time. Better still, we are currently recieving applications for a
full time paid position to work on an Learning Content Management
System, that will be using Forrest. Once we have that developer they
will be able to help out in this and other academic related areas.
> Someone tell me where to get started and I'll go :)
First of al we need to know that Jeclid does what it says. That is we
need to be sure we can get it working with Forrest and spitting out SVG
from a MAthML input. Probably best to work in Cocoon first, we'll worry
about how to put it in Forrest later (not sure if it should be part of
the main distribution, MathML seems a little specialised for that).
Can you try and get the component running in Cocoon/
Ross
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>.
--- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Paul Smith
wrote:
>
> > If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically containing
> > lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can Forrest do far me
> > regarding the rendering of equations?
>
> It should be technically possible and not to hard, as
> http://jeuclid.sf.net/ ha support for Cocoon.
I can't find anything on this page that links to a download or similar.
Anyone got an alternative URL?
>
> IIUC one of the project admins is also a Cocoon committer and Forrest
>
> helper (our Chaperon Wiki man :-) so we can get help in case.
>
> What is needed is just a soul that has the will to implement it in
> Forrest :-)
Well - It's certainly interesting enough for me to try, but I've not
mucked around with Forrest internals before, so there's probably too
much of a learning curve for me to do it alone, but I'm willing to help
where I can here! Someone tell me where to get started and I'll go :)
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=====
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
and Mathematics
University of Exeter
(Laver building room C96, Tel X3990)
___________________________________________________________
BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
Re: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Paul Smith wrote:
> If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically containing
> lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can Forrest do far me
> regarding the rendering of equations?
It should be technically possible and not to hard, as
http://jeuclid.sf.net/ ha support for Cocoon.
IIUC one of the project admins is also a Cocoon committer and Forrest
helper (our Chaperon Wiki man :-) so we can get help in case.
What is needed is just a soul that has the will to implement it in
Forrest :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Conal Tuohy <co...@paradise.net.nz>.
Open Office Math is good for editing MathML. WYSIWYG.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Justus H. Piater [mailto:Justus.Piater@ULg.ac.be]
> Sent: Monday, 9 February 2004 22:56
> To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
>
>
> Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org> wrote on Sat, 07 Feb 2004
> 15:11:10 +0100:
>
> > If you write more than just one equation, you will make a
> difference,
> > for sure ;-) If you have a document with dozens of equations, MathML
> > makes it unmaintainable.
>
> I find MathML tedious to code by hand, and hard to read too for
> non-trivial formulas. I have a setup that allows me to code all my
> math in LaTeX syntax, and a Makefile setup that uses an external Perl
> script and Ian Hutchinson's TTM to convert inlined LaTeX code to
> external MathML files that are then XIncluded. This allows me to
> hand-code math conveniently in LaTeX (which is processed directly by
> PassiveTeX until there is a FO processor that can render MathML), and
> convert it to MathML for the Web.
>
> This gets me the best of both worlds: Easy coding and reading in
> LaTeX, and Web math in MathML without cluttering up my (validated) XML
> source files.
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by "Justus H. Piater" <Ju...@ULg.ac.be>.
Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org> wrote on Sat, 07 Feb 2004
15:11:10 +0100:
> If you write more than just one equation, you will make a difference,
> for sure ;-) If you have a document with dozens of equations, MathML
> makes it unmaintainable.
I find MathML tedious to code by hand, and hard to read too for
non-trivial formulas. I have a setup that allows me to code all my
math in LaTeX syntax, and a Makefile setup that uses an external Perl
script and Ian Hutchinson's TTM to convert inlined LaTeX code to
external MathML files that are then XIncluded. This allows me to
hand-code math conveniently in LaTeX (which is processed directly by
PassiveTeX until there is a FO processor that can render MathML), and
convert it to MathML for the Web.
This gets me the best of both worlds: Easy coding and reading in
LaTeX, and Web math in MathML without cluttering up my (validated) XML
source files.
Justus
--
Justus H. Piater, Ph.D. http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~piater/
Institut Montefiore, B28 Phone: +32-4-366-2279
Université de Liège, Belgium Fax: +32-4-366-2620
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org>.
Am Fr, den 06.02.2004 schrieb Paul Smith um 16:57:
> > > Does this solution handle *all* TeX markup?
> >
> > Of course not all markup. This is impossible and unnecessary.
> > But most of core and the math environment work.
>
> [edited necessary to unnecessary as I believe you meant]
Oops, I mean unnecessary, of course.
> What kind of thigs are missing? Why are they unnecessary?
There are nearly thousands of commands. In the real world, you only use
a subset of them.
> > > If it does (and you are
> > > willing to let us have the necessary configs) then the problem is
> > > already solved!
> >
> > Which problem? If I get it right you want that Forrest renders MathML
> > for you, or do you want to use Forrest with TeX as input?!
>
> I want to use Forrest to display 'Maths'. I personally don't care
> whether it uses MathML or Tex, or somehow uses a kind of stylesheet to
> transform one into the other - I just want to be able to put equations
> in my Forrest docs to be able to type up my lecture notes and have them
> available on the web.
If you write more than just one equation, you will make a difference,
for sure ;-) If you have a document with dozens of equations, MathML
makes it unmaintainable.
> The reason I don't care whether it's MathML or TeX is that I haven't
> learnt how to write either yet - I'm going to have to learn one of them
> though! I'm willing to learn whichever Forrest will support.
XML is a very bad format for editors knowing from experience(We
have thousands of documents with equations in our project). But this is
a different chapter...
> > BTW, you can also use the math enviroment within Wiki, for example:
> >
> > -----------------------
> > !Math equations
> >
> > $\frac{2 \cdot x}{x^2} = y$
> >
> > And the result is ....
> > -----------------------
> >
>
> Is this in your own setup or already possible in Forrest?
Not now, but can easily done by adding some additional transformers to
the cwiki.
cwiki --> xdoc + mathml ---> html + gif images (or mathml)
But first things first. You should first start to get MathML running.
I can help if there problems occur...
Stephan.
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>.
> > Does this solution handle *all* TeX markup?
>
> Of course not all markup. This is impossible and unnecessary.
> But most of core and the math environment work.
[edited necessary to unnecessary as I believe you meant]
What kind of thigs are missing? Why are they unnecessary?
> > If it does (and you are
> > willing to let us have the necessary configs) then the problem is
> > already solved!
>
> Which problem? If I get it right you want that Forrest renders MathML
> for you, or do you want to use Forrest with TeX as input?!
>
I want to use Forrest to display 'Maths'. I personally don't care
whether it uses MathML or Tex, or somehow uses a kind of stylesheet to
transform one into the other - I just want to be able to put equations
in my Forrest docs to be able to type up my lecture notes and have them
available on the web.
The reason I don't care whether it's MathML or TeX is that I haven't
learnt how to write either yet - I'm going to have to learn one of them
though! I'm willing to learn whichever Forrest will support.
> BTW, you can also use the math enviroment within Wiki, for example:
>
> -----------------------
> !Math equations
>
> $\frac{2 \cdot x}{x^2} = y$
>
> And the result is ....
> -----------------------
>
Is this in your own setup or already possible in Forrest?
=====
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
and Mathematics
University of Exeter
(Laver building room C96, Tel X3990)
___________________________________________________________
BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org>.
Am Fr, den 06.02.2004 schrieb Ross Gardler um 15:14:
> Paul Smith wrote:
> > --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Stephan Michels
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>Yes, TeX is great. This is the reason, why we produce only TeX
> >>files,
> >>>parse them with Chaperon, process them into whatever with Cocoon,
> >>of
> >>>course ;-)
>
> Does this solution handle *all* TeX markup?
Of course not all markup. This is impossible and necessary.
But most of core and the math environment work.
> If it does (and you are
> willing to let us have the necessary configs) then the problem is
> already solved!
Which problem? If I get it right you want that Forrest renders MathML
for you, or do you want to use Forrest with TeX as input?!
BTW, you can also use the math enviroment within Wiki, for example:
-----------------------
!Math equations
$\frac{2 \cdot x}{x^2} = y$
And the result is ....
-----------------------
Stephan.
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Paul Smith wrote:
> --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Stephan Michels
> wrote:
>
>>...
>>
>>>Yes, TeX is great. This is the reason, why we produce only TeX
>>
>>files,
>>
>>>parse them with Chaperon, process them into whatever with Cocoon,
>>
>>of
>>
>>>course ;-)
Does this solution handle *all* TeX markup? If it does (and you are
willing to let us have the necessary configs) then the problem is
already solved!
Ross
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>.
--- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Stephan Michels
wrote:
> ...
> > Yes, TeX is great. This is the reason, why we produce only TeX
> files,
> > parse them with Chaperon, process them into whatever with Cocoon,
> of
> > course ;-)
>
> See, it's not so hard. ;-))
>
It does seem to be standard - all the people curently writing up their
theses are using it here. I did find some programs that convert from
TeX or LaTeX to MathML though, so if Forrest can handle one or the
other I think we'll be set.
I'll have to check out this Chaperon and find out exactly what that
does...
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=====
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
and Mathematics
University of Exeter
(Laver building room C96, Tel X3990)
___________________________________________________________
BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Stephan Michels wrote:
...
> Yes, TeX is great. This is the reason, why we produce only TeX files,
> parse them with Chaperon, process them into whatever with Cocoon, of
> course ;-)
See, it's not so hard. ;-))
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Stephan Michels <st...@apache.org>.
Am Do, den 05.02.2004 schrieb Nicola Ken Barozzi um 22:58:
> J.Pietschmann wrote:
> ...
> > It's C code, tightly integrated into the Gecko rendering engine.
> > I'd be surprised if anybody managed to make it accessible, short
> > of providing a JNI to Gecko as a HTML+MathML rendering widget.
> > Not that this would be useless, quite the contrary.
> >
> > The MozMathML people plundered TeX for algorithms on how to render
> > equations. I think I've heard of a project providing a Java
> > interface to TeX (or even a Java port), which could render to GIF
> > among other things.
>
> TeX is *the* king of math rendering, no doubt about that. It's funny how
> I was reading yesterday the homepage of the LaTeX author... In any case
> it should be not too hard to also output TeX, which is the standard for
> printing math books, at least it is at the Universities I visited.
Yes, TeX is great. This is the reason, why we produce only TeX files,
parse them with Chaperon, process them into whatever with Cocoon, of
course ;-)
I got a little screenshot from a workmate to show how mathml can look
like.
http://vern.chem.tu-berlin.de/~stephan/mathml.png
Stephan.
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
J.Pietschmann wrote:
...
> It's C code, tightly integrated into the Gecko rendering engine.
> I'd be surprised if anybody managed to make it accessible, short
> of providing a JNI to Gecko as a HTML+MathML rendering widget.
> Not that this would be useless, quite the contrary.
>
> The MozMathML people plundered TeX for algorithms on how to render
> equations. I think I've heard of a project providing a Java
> interface to TeX (or even a Java port), which could render to GIF
> among other things.
TeX is *the* king of math rendering, no doubt about that. It's funny how
I was reading yesterday the homepage of the LaTeX author... In any case
it should be not too hard to also output TeX, which is the standard for
printing math books, at least it is at the Universities I visited.
http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/catalogue.html
http://www.tug.org/tex-archive/systems/java/javatex/README.javaTeX
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~tim/TeX/javaTeX/
http://www-sfb288.math.tu-berlin.de/jdvi/home.html
It seems that most are Gnu-licensed...
Anyway, IMHO extending JEuclid seems to be the best bet here, and
eventually also make a stylesheet to output of Forrest pages to LaTeX.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by "J.Pietschmann" <j3...@yahoo.de>.
Dave Brondsema wrote:
> The Mozilla MathML project at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/
> seems pretty complete. The demo pages work pretty good in Firebird. I
> don't know how their code is structured, etc, etc. It may be difficult to
> take their functionality out and put it into an optional jar,
It's C code, tightly integrated into the Gecko rendering engine.
I'd be surprised if anybody managed to make it accessible, short
of providing a JNI to Gecko as a HTML+MathML rendering widget.
Not that this would be useless, quite the contrary.
The MozMathML people plundered TeX for algorithms on how to render
equations. I think I've heard of a project providing a Java
interface to TeX (or even a Java port), which could render to GIF
among other things.
J.Pietschmann
Re: How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>.
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> > From: Paul Smith [mailto:googoodolls_uk@yahoo.com]
> >
> > As I have never done anything similar I can't really help you with this
> > but there was a similar discussion on user@cocoon.apache.org. See
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-users&m=107593758419194&w=2
> > for details.
>
> From this link I got to http://jeuclid.sourceforge.net/
>
> Where it says:
>
> "The project is a component for the Apache Cocoon
> project(xml.apache.org). This component converts MathML documents to GIF
> images or SVG. So the user can easy write documents with embedding
> MathML fragments, and the component create in situ the GIF images. The
> SVG converter is used to create documents with embedding SVG fragments
> for e.g. the FOP to create PDF, or what else, documents."
>
> This is under the APL but the project appears to be pretty dormant.
> There are screenshots of it working, but it may require some work to
> bring it up to date (originally maintainer has asked for someone to take
> over - see news section)
>
> Ross
>
The Mozilla MathML project at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/
seems pretty complete. The demo pages work pretty good in Firebird. I
don't know how their code is structured, etc, etc. It may be difficult to
take their functionality out and put it into an optional jar, but it might
be even more difficult to make jeuclid complete (depending of course on
how far it is already)
--
Dave Brondsema
dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net - personal
http://www.splike.com - programming
http://csx.calvin.edu - Calvin club
How do I proceed (WAS Re: Forrest and Mathematics)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> From: Paul Smith [mailto:googoodolls_uk@yahoo.com]
>
> As I have never done anything similar I can't really help you with this
> but there was a similar discussion on user@cocoon.apache.org. See
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-users&m=107593758419194&w=2
> for details.
From this link I got to http://jeuclid.sourceforge.net/
Where it says:
"The project is a component for the Apache Cocoon
project(xml.apache.org). This component converts MathML documents to GIF
images or SVG. So the user can easy write documents with embedding
MathML fragments, and the component create in situ the GIF images. The
SVG converter is used to create documents with embedding SVG fragments
for e.g. the FOP to create PDF, or what else, documents."
This is under the APL but the project appears to be pretty dormant.
There are screenshots of it working, but it may require some work to
bring it up to date (originally maintainer has asked for someone to take
over - see news section)
Ross
RE: Forrest and Mathematics
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
From: Paul Smith [mailto:googoodolls_uk@yahoo.com]
>
> If I wanted to create a mathematical website, basically
> containing lecture notes from a series of lectures, what can
> Forrest do far me regarding the rendering of equations?
As I have never done anything similar I can't really help you with this
but there was a similar discussion on user@cocoon.apache.org. See
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-users&m=107593758419194&w=2
for details.
--
Reinhard