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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Kevin Ross <kr...@spheris.com> on 2006/03/22 20:25:18 UTC
Proposal: Commons for .NET (dotnet)
I find myself in the C# world these days, at a tremendous loss to the
libraries I am used to in the java world (not to mention some drastic
cultural changes), namely commons-* and my other open projects which are
very dependent on commons.
I found some people who put some effort into something called
Dotnet.Commons, but to my displeasure, they were fairly minimal
implementations, converted only some of the apache code, yanked out all
comments regarding source implementation details and authors, deleted unit
tests, and THEY STUCK LGPL on the code. Those things together led me to
dismiss the projects as viable.
I have attempted to bring most dependencies that directly impact me into one
workspace (solution), and run the Java Language Conversion Assistant (JLCA)
on all the code. This includes not only my projects, but the following
commons projects:
commons-beanutils
commons-codec
commons-collections
commons-digester
commons-email
commons-fileupload
commons-httpclient
commons-io
commons-lang
commons-logging
commons-net
commons-pool
This is not to say that this code all compiles, on the contrary, it is
converted to C#, and some code compiles. I am only picking off one file at
a time as necessary for me to complete my projects (i.e. incrementalism).
At this time, only commons-logging (or commons-net-logging as I've called
it) works fully over log4net. One thing I have continued to do, is where I
find opportunities to search/replace on patterns, I do it globally. This
has accelerated the conversion of unit tests to NUnit in particular.
What I am looking for is a place to share my work with others and
stimulating the use of open source in the .NET (dotnet) world, while
sticking to the core principles that have made jakarta-commons so
successful. I am a committer with Apache for the Xindice project, though I
haven't been active for some time. I hope this might ease the acceptance of
this code for the potenial community gain.
Nontheless, this is something that needs to happen. Is there interest in
this from others? I cannot single-handedly do this, but I can contribute
and I would like to help chip away at this codebase that has been so
important to us in the java community. Apache's adoption of these projects
can make them successful.
-Kevin Ross
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Re: Proposal: Commons for .NET (dotnet)
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On 3/23/06, robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> but don't be too disappointed if the reaction is more or less: come back
> once you have bootstrapped a community. i know that this is the most
> difficult part of the process but react positively and try to get as
> many community building tips as possible from the folks on list. it's
> just possible that you might be able to pick up a developer or two as
> well.
Both iBatis and log4j have .net equvalents (perhaps others?) - maybe
its worth consulting them on how they "formed" their .net communities?
There also may be people interested in what you want to achieve.
http://logging.apache.org/log4net/
http://ibatis.apache.org/
Niall
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Re: Proposal: Commons for .NET (dotnet)
Posted by Rory Winston <rw...@eircom.net>.
I think its a great idea, if there is the demand and support there for
it. Robert is right in that Jakarta is quite Java-centric, but I have
noticed that Apache as a whole is becoming rather more diverse lately.
So even if you can't find a home at Jakarta, you may be able to drum up
support for for entry into Apache incubation.
And PS I agree, the DotNet Commons stuff is pretty unimpressive.
Rory
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> hi kevin
>
> On Wed, 2006-03-22 at 13:25 -0600, Kevin Ross wrote:
>
>> I find myself in the C# world these days, at a tremendous loss to the
>> libraries I am used to in the java world (not to mention some drastic
>> cultural changes), namely commons-* and my other open projects which are
>> very dependent on commons.
>>
>> I found some people who put some effort into something called
>> Dotnet.Commons, but to my displeasure, they were fairly minimal
>> implementations, converted only some of the apache code, yanked out all
>> comments regarding source implementation details and authors, deleted unit
>> tests, and THEY STUCK LGPL on the code. Those things together led me to
>> dismiss the projects as viable.
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>> What I am looking for is a place to share my work with others and
>> stimulating the use of open source in the .NET (dotnet) world, while
>> sticking to the core principles that have made jakarta-commons so
>> successful. I am a committer with Apache for the Xindice project, though I
>> haven't been active for some time. I hope this might ease the acceptance of
>> this code for the potenial community gain.
>>
>
> in some ways, yes. if you are still a committer then you should be able
> to subscribe lists (such as community) where you might be able to
> contact other apache dot net'ers. in others, no.
>
> jakarta's charter is tied to the java language. IMHO the board is very
> unlikely to make the same mistake again (language independent groupings
> are preferred). this means that we cannot accept dot net code here
> (which is one reason why jakarta is gradually deconstructing itself).
>
> the board formed a commons project at apache a few years ago. they had
> it in mind that commons components might decide to move from jakarta to
> commons and new committers might be interested in cross language ports.
> it didn't work out that way and the commons project was closed. a lot of
> energy was invested in that effort and it is likely to take a lot of
> energy to persuade people to give something like that a second chance.
>
> so, sadly i'm not hope that there is much chance (at the moment) of a
> dot net port finding a home here at jakarta.
>
>
>> Nontheless, this is something that needs to happen. Is there interest in
>> this from others?
>>
>
> i'm not sure that there are many dot net'ers here (hopefully some folks
> will jump in here and prove me wrong ;)
>
>
>> I cannot single-handedly do this, but I can contribute
>> and I would like to help chip away at this codebase that has been so
>> important to us in the java community. Apache's adoption of these projects
>> can make them successful.
>>
>
> apache has changed fast in the last few years: evolving in an attempt to
> scale. now new code bases need to come in through the incubator. it's
> worth posting a proposal there. it's more language agnostic.
>
> but don't be too disappointed if the reaction is more or less: come back
> once you have bootstrapped a community. i know that this is the most
> difficult part of the process but react positively and try to get as
> many community building tips as possible from the folks on list. it's
> just possible that you might be able to pick up a developer or two as
> well.
>
> it's definitely possible for this project like this to succeed without
> the apache brand and i agree it's worthwhile too. IMHO you probably need
> as much energy and knowledge to successfully bootstrap a project within
> or without apache. one good resource is http://producingoss.com. use a
> blog to promote your project. release often. it takes time to establish
> a new project and gain momentum so don't worry if you're plowing a
> lonely furrow in the early days. invest time encouraging people to get
> involved in your community. spend a few dollars buying a .org domain
> (there are cheap now). if you host at sorceforge use subversion 'cos
> it's great.
>
> it sounds as though you're keen on the sort of open development we
> promote here at apache. cool :) you should find quite a bit of
> information on the foundation (http://www.apache.org and
> http://www.apache.org/dev) and the incubator
> (http://incubator.apache.org) site which may well help.
>
> i consider this topic on topic so (unless others shoot me down) feel
> free to discuss here, ask for advice or release announcements. might
> want to prefix future subjects with [.NET] tag so that people who aren't
> interested can filter.
>
> a fair wind for your sails :)
>
> - robert
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Proposal: Commons for .NET (dotnet)
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 3/23/06, robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> jakarta's charter is tied to the java language. IMHO the board is very
> unlikely to make the same mistake again (language independent groupings
> are preferred). this means that we cannot accept dot net code here
> (which is one reason why jakarta is gradually deconstructing itself).
>
> the board formed a commons project at apache a few years ago. they had
> it in mind that commons components might decide to move from jakarta to
> commons and new committers might be interested in cross language ports.
> it didn't work out that way and the commons project was closed. a lot of
> energy was invested in that effort and it is likely to take a lot of
> energy to persuade people to give something like that a second chance.
>
> so, sadly i'm not hope that there is much chance (at the moment) of a
> dot net port finding a home here at jakarta.
This is interesting as a, say, .net port of commons-collections is
closely tied to commons-collections, or not ? So where should it live
?
> apache has changed fast in the last few years: evolving in an attempt to
> scale. now new code bases need to come in through the incubator. it's
> worth posting a proposal there. it's more language agnostic.
Is the incubator also intended for new projects ? I thought it is for
bringing existing code bases into Apache ?
> but don't be too disappointed if the reaction is more or less: come back
> once you have bootstrapped a community. i know that this is the most
> difficult part of the process but react positively and try to get as
> many community building tips as possible from the folks on list. it's
> just possible that you might be able to pick up a developer or two as
> well.
>
> it's definitely possible for this project like this to succeed without
> the apache brand and i agree it's worthwhile too. IMHO you probably need
> as much energy and knowledge to successfully bootstrap a project within
> or without apache. one good resource is http://producingoss.com. use a
> blog to promote your project. release often. it takes time to establish
> a new project and gain momentum so don't worry if you're plowing a
> lonely furrow in the early days. invest time encouraging people to get
> involved in your community. spend a few dollars buying a .org domain
> (there are cheap now). if you host at sorceforge use subversion 'cos
> it's great.
A .Net port would IMO have a lot in common (no pun intended) with a
Java 5 'port', and there is at least one such project at SourceForge,
right ?
cheers,
Tom
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Re: Proposal: Commons for .NET (dotnet)
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
hi kevin
On Wed, 2006-03-22 at 13:25 -0600, Kevin Ross wrote:
> I find myself in the C# world these days, at a tremendous loss to the
> libraries I am used to in the java world (not to mention some drastic
> cultural changes), namely commons-* and my other open projects which are
> very dependent on commons.
>
> I found some people who put some effort into something called
> Dotnet.Commons, but to my displeasure, they were fairly minimal
> implementations, converted only some of the apache code, yanked out all
> comments regarding source implementation details and authors, deleted unit
> tests, and THEY STUCK LGPL on the code. Those things together led me to
> dismiss the projects as viable.
<snip>
> What I am looking for is a place to share my work with others and
> stimulating the use of open source in the .NET (dotnet) world, while
> sticking to the core principles that have made jakarta-commons so
> successful. I am a committer with Apache for the Xindice project, though I
> haven't been active for some time. I hope this might ease the acceptance of
> this code for the potenial community gain.
in some ways, yes. if you are still a committer then you should be able
to subscribe lists (such as community) where you might be able to
contact other apache dot net'ers. in others, no.
jakarta's charter is tied to the java language. IMHO the board is very
unlikely to make the same mistake again (language independent groupings
are preferred). this means that we cannot accept dot net code here
(which is one reason why jakarta is gradually deconstructing itself).
the board formed a commons project at apache a few years ago. they had
it in mind that commons components might decide to move from jakarta to
commons and new committers might be interested in cross language ports.
it didn't work out that way and the commons project was closed. a lot of
energy was invested in that effort and it is likely to take a lot of
energy to persuade people to give something like that a second chance.
so, sadly i'm not hope that there is much chance (at the moment) of a
dot net port finding a home here at jakarta.
> Nontheless, this is something that needs to happen. Is there interest in
> this from others?
i'm not sure that there are many dot net'ers here (hopefully some folks
will jump in here and prove me wrong ;)
> I cannot single-handedly do this, but I can contribute
> and I would like to help chip away at this codebase that has been so
> important to us in the java community. Apache's adoption of these projects
> can make them successful.
apache has changed fast in the last few years: evolving in an attempt to
scale. now new code bases need to come in through the incubator. it's
worth posting a proposal there. it's more language agnostic.
but don't be too disappointed if the reaction is more or less: come back
once you have bootstrapped a community. i know that this is the most
difficult part of the process but react positively and try to get as
many community building tips as possible from the folks on list. it's
just possible that you might be able to pick up a developer or two as
well.
it's definitely possible for this project like this to succeed without
the apache brand and i agree it's worthwhile too. IMHO you probably need
as much energy and knowledge to successfully bootstrap a project within
or without apache. one good resource is http://producingoss.com. use a
blog to promote your project. release often. it takes time to establish
a new project and gain momentum so don't worry if you're plowing a
lonely furrow in the early days. invest time encouraging people to get
involved in your community. spend a few dollars buying a .org domain
(there are cheap now). if you host at sorceforge use subversion 'cos
it's great.
it sounds as though you're keen on the sort of open development we
promote here at apache. cool :) you should find quite a bit of
information on the foundation (http://www.apache.org and
http://www.apache.org/dev) and the incubator
(http://incubator.apache.org) site which may well help.
i consider this topic on topic so (unless others shoot me down) feel
free to discuss here, ask for advice or release announcements. might
want to prefix future subjects with [.NET] tag so that people who aren't
interested can filter.
a fair wind for your sails :)
- robert
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Re: Proposal: Commons for .NET (dotnet)
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 3/22/06, Kevin Ross <kr...@spheris.com> wrote:
> I find myself in the C# world these days, at a tremendous loss to the
> libraries I am used to in the java world (not to mention some drastic
> cultural changes), namely commons-* and my other open projects which are
> very dependent on commons.
>
> I found some people who put some effort into something called
> Dotnet.Commons, but to my displeasure, they were fairly minimal
> implementations, converted only some of the apache code, yanked out all
> comments regarding source implementation details and authors, deleted unit
> tests, and THEY STUCK LGPL on the code. Those things together led me to
> dismiss the projects as viable.
>
> I have attempted to bring most dependencies that directly impact me into one
> workspace (solution), and run the Java Language Conversion Assistant (JLCA)
> on all the code. This includes not only my projects, but the following
> commons projects:
>
> commons-beanutils
> commons-codec
> commons-collections
> commons-digester
> commons-email
> commons-fileupload
> commons-httpclient
> commons-io
> commons-lang
> commons-logging
> commons-net
> commons-pool
>
>
> This is not to say that this code all compiles, on the contrary, it is
> converted to C#, and some code compiles. I am only picking off one file at
> a time as necessary for me to complete my projects (i.e. incrementalism).
> At this time, only commons-logging (or commons-net-logging as I've called
> it) works fully over log4net. One thing I have continued to do, is where I
> find opportunities to search/replace on patterns, I do it globally. This
> has accelerated the conversion of unit tests to NUnit in particular.
>
> What I am looking for is a place to share my work with others and
> stimulating the use of open source in the .NET (dotnet) world, while
> sticking to the core principles that have made jakarta-commons so
> successful. I am a committer with Apache for the Xindice project, though I
> haven't been active for some time. I hope this might ease the acceptance of
> this code for the potenial community gain.
>
> Nontheless, this is something that needs to happen. Is there interest in
> this from others? I cannot single-handedly do this, but I can contribute
> and I would like to help chip away at this codebase that has been so
> important to us in the java community. Apache's adoption of these projects
> can make them successful.
+1 for the general idea. I often find myself wishing that there were
some open source libraries that wouId make my life easier when doing
C# work.
In particular, I would suspect that commons-collections and
commons-digester, and perhaps also parts of commons-lang, are quite
useful. Especially the collections of the dotnet framework are rather
poor, e.g. no set classes.
If you want to start something like this in the sandbox, then I'd like to help.
cheers,
Tom
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