Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[Brian M Dube <bd...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 04:03:27PM +1000, David Crossley wrote:

> The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
> seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
> system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
> there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.

(Snip)

> 
> Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
> but need to to updated.
> 
> If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
> the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
> are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
> 
> e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
> especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
> to that and to LEGAL-9.
> 
> e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
> similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?

I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
lacking, too.

Brian

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

["Sina K. Heshmati" <si...@khakbaz.com>]

David Crossley wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> > David Crossley wrote:
>> > >Ross Gardler wrote:
>> > >>Brian M Dube wrote:
>> > >>>David Crossley wrote:
>> > >>>>The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
>> > >>>>seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
>> > >>>>system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
>> > >>>>there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
>> > >>>(Snip)
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
>> > >>>>but need to to updated.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
>> > >>>>the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
>> > >>>>are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
>> > >>>>especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
>> > >>>>to that and to LEGAL-9.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
>> > >>>>similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
>> > >>>I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
>> > >>>without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
>> > >>>available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
>> > >>>have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
>> > >>>lacking, too.
>> > >>If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...
>> > >
>> > >We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
>> > >in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
>> > >the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.
>> >
>> > Peronslly I don't need to follow up. There is GPL code - that's the end
>> > of the story for the ASF. I too have looked for alternatives in the past
>> > - they don't (to my knowedge exist) and I've wasted much time on this in
>> > the past.
>> >
>> > I'm offering a solution. If others want to follow up on the legal front
>> > fine - for me it is a dead end so lets get the code where it can be used.
>>
>> I am not referring to finding a replacement. I mean that
>> our "legal-discuss" list is not a boogey monster. They
>> want to treat everything on a case-by-case basis.
>>
>> No-one has yet even approached them on this matter.
>>
>> See Henri's answer in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-8
> 
> The way that i see it is that is it up to our PMC.
> 
> It is an optional plugin. If it was the core of
> Forrest then things would be very different.
> 
> Sure we cannot distribute those jars, but we can choose
> to say to the user: You need to download xxx.jar and
> add it to your lib directory.
> 
> If that approach is acceptable to this PMC then
> so be it.

I'm not a PMC member but this story remined me of [1]. You and 
legal-discuss folks know much more about such issues.

-Sina

[1] http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL

> 
> Someone needs to clarify that with legal-discuss.
> 

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> David Crossley wrote:
>>>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>>> Brian M Dube wrote:
>>>>>> David Crossley wrote:
>>>>>>> The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
>>>>>>> seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
>>>>>>> system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
>>>>>>> there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
>>>>>> (Snip)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
>>>>>>> but need to to updated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
>>>>>>> the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
>>>>>>> are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
>>>>>>> especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
>>>>>>> to that and to LEGAL-9.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
>>>>>>> similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
>>>>>> I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
>>>>>> without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
>>>>>> available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
>>>>>> have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
>>>>>> lacking, too.
>>>>> If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...
>>>> We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
>>>> in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
>>>> the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.
>>> Peronslly I don't need to follow up. There is GPL code - that's the end 
>>> of the story for the ASF. I too have looked for alternatives in the past 
>>> - they don't (to my knowedge exist) and I've wasted much time on this in 
>>> the past.
>>>
>>> I'm offering a solution. If others want to follow up on the legal front 
>>> fine - for me it is a dead end so lets get the code where it can be used.
>> I am not referring to finding a replacement. I mean that
>> our "legal-discuss" list is not a boogey monster. They
>> want to treat everything on a case-by-case basis.
>>
>> No-one has yet even approached them on this matter.
>>
>> See Henri's answer in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-8
> 
> The way that i see it is that is it up to our PMC.
> 
> It is an optional plugin. If it was the core of
> Forrest then things would be very different.
> 
> Sure we cannot distribute those jars, but we can choose
> to say to the user: You need to download xxx.jar and
> add it to your lib directory.
> 
> If that approach is acceptable to this PMC then
> so be it.
> 
> Someone needs to clarify that with legal-discuss.

As a PMC member I will support whatever those putting the effort into it 
want to do. What I care most about is getting the code out there uner 
clear legal terms. I respect the ASF hard line on licence compatailbity 
as it results in considerable cost saving for thos doing procurement 
(i.e. we can trust the ASF).

I don't like the idea of shipping code that does not work the way 
everything else does (i.e. add the plugin to forrest.properties and then 
download these jars). It breaks the way Forrest is supposed to learn.

By distributing from a place where we explicitly have a more relaxed 
attitude to the GPL compatability argument and by highlighting this to 
users we allow people to decide on the risk for themselves (if they do 
not intend to redistribute there is no risk in any case).

I said I'm prepared to support whatever those doing the work want to do 
- I set up an SF account for this purpose and I will do what is 
necessary to allow this code to reach that distribution point if that is 
what those doing the work want.

I don't think it is helpful to push in one direction or another and ask 
for others to do the work to move in that direction.

Ross

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > >Ross Gardler wrote:
> > >>Brian M Dube wrote:
> > >>>David Crossley wrote:
> > >>>>The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
> > >>>>seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
> > >>>>system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
> > >>>>there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
> > >>>(Snip)
> > >>>
> > >>>>Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
> > >>>>but need to to updated.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
> > >>>>the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
> > >>>>are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
> > >>>>especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
> > >>>>to that and to LEGAL-9.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
> > >>>>similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
> > >>>I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
> > >>>without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
> > >>>available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
> > >>>have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
> > >>>lacking, too.
> > >>If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...
> > >
> > >We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
> > >in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
> > >the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.
> > 
> > Peronslly I don't need to follow up. There is GPL code - that's the end 
> > of the story for the ASF. I too have looked for alternatives in the past 
> > - they don't (to my knowedge exist) and I've wasted much time on this in 
> > the past.
> > 
> > I'm offering a solution. If others want to follow up on the legal front 
> > fine - for me it is a dead end so lets get the code where it can be used.
> 
> I am not referring to finding a replacement. I mean that
> our "legal-discuss" list is not a boogey monster. They
> want to treat everything on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> No-one has yet even approached them on this matter.
> 
> See Henri's answer in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-8

The way that i see it is that is it up to our PMC.

It is an optional plugin. If it was the core of
Forrest then things would be very different.

Sure we cannot distribute those jars, but we can choose
to say to the user: You need to download xxx.jar and
add it to your lib directory.

If that approach is acceptable to this PMC then
so be it.

Someone needs to clarify that with legal-discuss.

-David

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[Brian M Dube <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 12:55:26AM +1000, David Crossley wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > >Ross Gardler wrote:
> > >>Brian M Dube wrote:
> > >>>David Crossley wrote:
> > >>>>The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
> > >>>>seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
> > >>>>system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
> > >>>>there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
> > >>>(Snip)
> > >>>
> > >>>>Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
> > >>>>but need to to updated.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
> > >>>>the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
> > >>>>are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
> > >>>>especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
> > >>>>to that and to LEGAL-9.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
> > >>>>similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
> > >>>I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
> > >>>without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
> > >>>available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
> > >>>have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
> > >>>lacking, too.
> > >>If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...
> > >
> > >We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
> > >in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
> > >the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.

It looks like you mean that in a general sense, but in this case I didn't
expect anyone to champion a plugin that only I have access to. Based
on good advice earlier in the thread, I've been holding off contacting
legal-discuss until I can write it up in a way that doesn't waste
their time or mine. Another factor is that I didn't expect an outcome
that would put the plugin on ASF hardware, but see below.

> > Peronslly I don't need to follow up. There is GPL code - that's the end 
> > of the story for the ASF. I too have looked for alternatives in the past 
> > - they don't (to my knowedge exist) and I've wasted much time on this in 
> > the past.
> > 
> > I'm offering a solution. If others want to follow up on the legal front 
> > fine - for me it is a dead end so lets get the code where it can be used.
> 
> I am not referring to finding a replacement. I mean that
> our "legal-discuss" list is not a boogey monster. They
> want to treat everything on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> No-one has yet even approached them on this matter.
> 
> See Henri's answer in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-8

I read that and the other legal issues in this thread and was
discouraged. If I have the time to write a draft that satisfies me,
I'll contact them.

Brian

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Ross Gardler wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>Brian M Dube wrote:
> >>>David Crossley wrote:
> >>>>The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
> >>>>seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
> >>>>system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
> >>>>there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
> >>>(Snip)
> >>>
> >>>>Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
> >>>>but need to to updated.
> >>>>
> >>>>If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
> >>>>the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
> >>>>are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
> >>>>
> >>>>e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
> >>>>especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
> >>>>to that and to LEGAL-9.
> >>>>
> >>>>e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
> >>>>similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
> >>>I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
> >>>without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
> >>>available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
> >>>have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
> >>>lacking, too.
> >>If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...
> >
> >We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
> >in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
> >the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.
> 
> Peronslly I don't need to follow up. There is GPL code - that's the end 
> of the story for the ASF. I too have looked for alternatives in the past 
> - they don't (to my knowedge exist) and I've wasted much time on this in 
> the past.
> 
> I'm offering a solution. If others want to follow up on the legal front 
> fine - for me it is a dead end so lets get the code where it can be used.

I am not referring to finding a replacement. I mean that
our "legal-discuss" list is not a boogey monster. They
want to treat everything on a case-by-case basis.

No-one has yet even approached them on this matter.

See Henri's answer in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-8

-David

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> Brian M Dube wrote:
>>> David Crossley wrote:
>>>> The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
>>>> seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
>>>> system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
>>>> there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
>>> (Snip)
>>>
>>>> Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
>>>> but need to to updated.
>>>>
>>>> If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
>>>> the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
>>>> are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
>>>>
>>>> e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
>>>> especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
>>>> to that and to LEGAL-9.
>>>>
>>>> e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
>>>> similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
>>> I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
>>> without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
>>> available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
>>> have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
>>> lacking, too.
>> If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...
> 
> We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
> in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
> the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.

Peronslly I don't need to follow up. There is GPL code - that's the end 
of the story for the ASF. I too have looked for alternatives in the past 
- they don't (to my knowedge exist) and I've wasted much time on this in 
the past.

I'm offering a solution. If others want to follow up on the legal front 
fine - for me it is a dead end so lets get the code where it can be used.

Ross

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Ross Gardler wrote:
> Brian M Dube wrote:
> >David Crossley wrote:
> >>
> >>The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
> >>seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
> >>system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
> >>there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
> >
> >(Snip)
> >
> >>Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
> >>but need to to updated.
> >>
> >>If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
> >>the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
> >>are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
> >>
> >>e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
> >>especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
> >>to that and to LEGAL-9.
> >>
> >>e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
> >>similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
> >
> >I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
> >without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
> >available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
> >have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
> >lacking, too.
> 
> If there is no way of getting into Forrest ...

We don't know that yet. Brian is not the only person
in this community. It is a pity that no-one can make
the effort to follow up on such legal aspects.

-David

> ... I'll give you commit rights 
> to the SF plugins project. Just let me have your SF username (when I set 
> this up we said any Forrest committer could have committ access over 
> their simply by asking).
> 
> However, be aware that it is not an active community in its own right. 
> It's merely a place to put stuff the ASF cannot distibute. We can (but 
> at present do not) include plugins from there in the Forrest 
> documentation (i.e. plugins.xml). Although to do this will require us to 
> include a big "this is not an approved ASF released plugin" or something 
> like that.
> 
> Ross

Re: input.wordpress (was Re: potential new plugin)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Brian M Dube wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 04:03:27PM +1000, David Crossley wrote:
> 
>> The dependencies on the main facilities (e.g. WordPress and MySql)
>> seem okay to me. I expect that they would be treated as
>> system requirements, i.e. there is no use for the plugin if
>> there is no server available to connect to and extract content from.
> 
> (Snip)
> 
>> Some of them (e.g. ehcache) are already in forrest core lib
>> but need to to updated.
>>
>> If Forrest followed our usual technique of re-distributing
>> the supporting jars as a convenience, then definitely there
>> are some in that list that cannot be re-distributed:
>>
>> e.g. hibernate - See 150 hits for that word on legal-discuss@
>> especially LEGAL-7 (and its linked issues) and the responses
>> to that and to LEGAL-9.
>>
>> e.g. mysql-connector-java - I expect that there would be
>> similar issues. Is there no suitably licensed alternative?
> 
> I haven't found one. I don't have the energy to make the plugin work
> without Hibernate and the MySQL driver. I'm happy to make the code
> available elsewhere, but this is a blocker to host it here. Note I
> have not contacted legal-discuss. The time and energy for that is
> lacking, too.

If there is no way of getting into Forrest I'll give you commit rights 
to the SF plugins project. Just let me have your SF username (when I set 
this up we said any Forrest committer could have committ access over 
their simply by asking).

However, be aware that it is not an active community in its own right. 
It's merely a place to put stuff the ASF cannot distibute. We can (but 
at present do not) include plugins from there in the Forrest 
documentation (i.e. plugins.xml). Although to do this will require us to 
include a big "this is not an approved ASF released plugin" or something 
like that.

Ross