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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> on 2009/11/10 20:27:40 UTC
Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
* moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
* placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Easy: no, unless you have the same open source track
record and constitution of apache folks as subversion does.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Gilles Scokart <gs...@gmail.com>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 12:11:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
>
> What will you say to the next incubating project asking the same thing?
>
>
> Gilles Scokart
>
>
> 2009/11/10 Greg Stein
>
> > There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
> >
> > * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> > * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than
> > /incubator/subversion/
> >
> > We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> > move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -g
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Gilles Scokart <gs...@gmail.com>.
What will you say to the next incubating project asking the same thing?
Gilles Scokart
2009/11/10 Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>
> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>
> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than
> /incubator/subversion/
>
> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> LOL
>>
>> Well... the problem is that an "svn mv" from /incubator/subversion/ to
>> /subversion/ introduces an artificial breakage in the history. It is
>> actually quite disruptive for tracking history (which is very
>> important to us).
>>
>
> Sounds like an excellent task to solve for subversion 1.7. :-)
>
Heh. It's the sort of task-to-solve I've been ranting about^W^Whoping
for on and off for ... what, nine years or so? :)
But now that we're joining the ASF, I'll magically have more time on my
hands to do it.
-- Brane
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> LOL
>
> Well... the problem is that an "svn mv" from /incubator/subversion/ to
> /subversion/ introduces an artificial breakage in the history. It is
> actually quite disruptive for tracking history (which is very
> important to us).
Sounds like an excellent task to solve for subversion 1.7. :-)
Martijn
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Now that you have explained :) +1 from me.
-- dims
On 11/10/2009 02:43 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> LOL
>
> Well... the problem is that an "svn mv" from /incubator/subversion/ to
> /subversion/ introduces an artificial breakage in the history. It is
> actually quite disruptive for tracking history (which is very
> important to us).
>
> (and yes, because of that history issue, I personally have no problem
> putting podlings at the top-level in our repository; it *is* version
> control, and we can always remove failed podlings' code from anywhere)
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 14:38, Davanum Srinivas<da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Personally i am ok with #1, but i am not sure if "svn switch --relocate" too
>> much of a burden for you guys :)
>>
>> On 11/10/2009 02:27 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>>
>>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than
>>> /incubator/subversion/
>>>
>>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -g
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
LOL
Well... the problem is that an "svn mv" from /incubator/subversion/ to
/subversion/ introduces an artificial breakage in the history. It is
actually quite disruptive for tracking history (which is very
important to us).
(and yes, because of that history issue, I personally have no problem
putting podlings at the top-level in our repository; it *is* version
control, and we can always remove failed podlings' code from anywhere)
Cheers,
-g
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 14:38, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally i am ok with #1, but i am not sure if "svn switch --relocate" too
> much of a burden for you guys :)
>
> On 11/10/2009 02:27 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>
>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than
>> /incubator/subversion/
>>
>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
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>
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Personally i am ok with #1, but i am not sure if "svn switch --relocate" too much of a burden for you guys :)
On 11/10/2009 02:27 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>
> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>
> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
The project status will stay there and be maintained as long as we're
incubating. That's my initial draft to get it into the system. I need
to spend more time with it (but have spent time getting other
discussions/tasks "into the pipeline"). I'm just about out of that
stuff, so will go update that some more :-)
Regarding the project website itself... I think we'll just leave that
at subversion.tigris.org until after graduation (I haven't brought it
up w/ the community, whether we want to migrate pre-graduation, and
(therefore) want to go straight to subversion.a.o)
Thanks,
-g
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 14:36, Deepal jayasinghe <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about the website ? (I can not find any information about the
> project, mentors, committers etc.. )
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/subversion.html
>
> -Deepal
>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>
>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>>
>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thank you!
>
>
> http://blogs.deepal.org
> http://deepal.org
>
>
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Deepal jayasinghe <de...@gmail.com>.
How about the website ? (I can not find any information about the
project, mentors, committers etc.. )
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/subversion.html
-Deepal
> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>
> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>
> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
--
Thank you!
http://blogs.deepal.org
http://deepal.org
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 22:17, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 21:09, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>...
>> I am fine with doing everything as if this was a TLP with the two exceptions that 1) the main page should say it is still in incubation 2) it is still under the umbrella of the IPMC until graduation.
>
> "the main page" ... are you referring to http://subversion.tigris.org/
> ? Regardless, yeah.. that thing should be updated to reflect the
> project's new status. If a different page, then please let me know,
> and I'll make it happen.
I've updated subversion.tigris.org (subject to hourly sync).
Cheers,
-g
(a bare version can be seen in source control:
http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/www/index.html)
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 22:41, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 7:17 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 21:09, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>>>
>>>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>>>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>>>>
>>>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>>>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am fine with doing everything as if this was a TLP with the two exceptions that 1) the main page should say it is still in incubation 2) it is still under the umbrella of the IPMC until graduation.
>>
>> "the main page" ... are you referring to http://subversion.tigris.org/
>> ? Regardless, yeah.. that thing should be updated to reflect the
>> project's new status. If a different page, then please let me know,
>> and I'll make it happen.
>
> No. http://subversion.apache.org. I saw the comment about keeping the main page at subversion.tigris.org but i see no reason it shouldn't move to apache during incubation. The tigris page can stay up as long as they want but should eventually redirect to Apache.
Ah. Definitely.
We (the podling) haven't really talked much about the web pages. I'll
throw that out.
(btw, if anyone wants to monitor svn pre-mailing-list-move, then
subscribe to dev@subversion.tigris.org; our equiv of private@ has been
silent, and should be staying that way until we move to apache.org)
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Nov 10, 2009, at 7:17 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 21:09, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>>
>>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>>>
>>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>>>
>>
>> I am fine with doing everything as if this was a TLP with the two exceptions that 1) the main page should say it is still in incubation 2) it is still under the umbrella of the IPMC until graduation.
>
> "the main page" ... are you referring to http://subversion.tigris.org/
> ? Regardless, yeah.. that thing should be updated to reflect the
> project's new status. If a different page, then please let me know,
> and I'll make it happen.
No. http://subversion.apache.org. I saw the comment about keeping the main page at subversion.tigris.org but i see no reason it shouldn't move to apache during incubation. The tigris page can stay up as long as they want but should eventually redirect to Apache.
>
> Regarding oversight: absolutely. No matter where the assets may
> reside, the IPMC is responsible for them.
>
> And regarding my previous aside: I do think that, in the future, we
> (the IPMC) may want to go ahead and place projects in their intended
> location to start with, to avoid that graduation-move. Something for a
> separate discussion.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 21:09, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>
>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>>
>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>>
>
> I am fine with doing everything as if this was a TLP with the two exceptions that 1) the main page should say it is still in incubation 2) it is still under the umbrella of the IPMC until graduation.
"the main page" ... are you referring to http://subversion.tigris.org/
? Regardless, yeah.. that thing should be updated to reflect the
project's new status. If a different page, then please let me know,
and I'll make it happen.
Regarding oversight: absolutely. No matter where the assets may
reside, the IPMC is responsible for them.
And regarding my previous aside: I do think that, in the future, we
(the IPMC) may want to go ahead and place projects in their intended
location to start with, to avoid that graduation-move. Something for a
separate discussion.
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>
> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>
> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>
I am fine with doing everything as if this was a TLP with the two exceptions that 1) the main page should say it is still in incubation 2) it is still under the umbrella of the IPMC until graduation.
Ralph
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Nov 10, 2009, at 2:27 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>
> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/
> subversion/
>
> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
That seems fine to me.
--kevan
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Thanks, and yes: agreed on the rationale.
And have no fears. We aren't going to back out. And I'm not seeing
that the ASF would boot us. So that just means we need to work through
it :-)
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 19:17, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>>
>> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
>> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>>
>> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
>> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
>
> I think a good thing we started here is to dig back in memory to find
> the core reasons why the process is what it is and make sure we stick
> to what's important. I think we have two main reasons to have the
> "incubator" name in most those places normally:
>
> 1) make clear to users what the status of a project is, i.e. where
> incubation is implying that a project may not become an apache project
> or that it may not be quite safe legally yet or it may not have a
> healthy community behind it or we don't have the trademarks yet or
> whatever
>
> 2) protect the apache brand (you know...if an incubating project goes
> up in flames, well, that's ok, we told you that might happen)
>
> 3) make it easier to keep a tight leash on PR
>
> I would argue we are not very worried about subversion being "unsafe
> for use by the general public" :-).
>
> Similarly, the main thing that would hurt our brand is if the
> subversion community would decide to cancel the incubation process
> (because apache really sucks, you know...). The most important thing
> these days is probably clear messaging on the relevant website(s).
>
> So, as long as y'all make sure to do that good stuff (be clear to
> users and protect the involved brands), I think what infrastructure
> goes where exactly, can be up to infra@, in this case. And y'all are
> talking to PRC anyway about any press stuff. I see no real risks.
>
>
> cheers,
>
>
> Leo
>
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Re: Two other issues to discuss for Subversion
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are two other issues to discuss for the Subversion podling:
>
> * moving the mailing lists directly to @subversion.apache.org
> * placing the source code at /subversion/ rather than /incubator/subversion/
>
> We are hoping to minimize overall disruption to the community with a
> move to incubator space, then a move to apache space.
I think a good thing we started here is to dig back in memory to find
the core reasons why the process is what it is and make sure we stick
to what's important. I think we have two main reasons to have the
"incubator" name in most those places normally:
1) make clear to users what the status of a project is, i.e. where
incubation is implying that a project may not become an apache project
or that it may not be quite safe legally yet or it may not have a
healthy community behind it or we don't have the trademarks yet or
whatever
2) protect the apache brand (you know...if an incubating project goes
up in flames, well, that's ok, we told you that might happen)
3) make it easier to keep a tight leash on PR
I would argue we are not very worried about subversion being "unsafe
for use by the general public" :-).
Similarly, the main thing that would hurt our brand is if the
subversion community would decide to cancel the incubation process
(because apache really sucks, you know...). The most important thing
these days is probably clear messaging on the relevant website(s).
So, as long as y'all make sure to do that good stuff (be clear to
users and protect the involved brands), I think what infrastructure
goes where exactly, can be up to infra@, in this case. And y'all are
talking to PRC anyway about any press stuff. I see no real risks.
cheers,
Leo
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