mod_wombat

[Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com>]

Brian has expressed interest in brining mod_wombat to the ASF.

Is there interest in this PMC to bring it in under us?


The overview of mod_wombat:

mod_wombat ( https://svn.i-want-a-pony.com/repos/wombat/trunk/ ) was
written primarily by Brian McCallister with random bits of help from
Garrett Rooney and myself.  It integrates the Lua scripting language
into an Apache module.

In the simplest form, you could call it just a 'mod_lua' that happens to
be 100 times better than the existing 1.3 only mod_lua.  However, it has
started down the path of more 'deep' integration, beyond just a handler.

The README contains more info, and a simple handler example of what it
can do today:
https://svn.i-want-a-pony.com/repos/wombat/trunk/README

I am personally interested in it because I believe it could be one of
the paths taken for an httpd 3.0 in which Lua was embedded, replacing
the config system and other large areas of C code.


Thoughts?

-Paul

Re: mod_wombat

[Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>]

On 11/8/06, Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net> wrote:

> Seriously though, I want to see mod_lua here at the ASF eventually.

Oops, s/mod_lua/mod_wombat/

-garrett

Re: mod_wombat

[Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>]

On 11/8/06, Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com> wrote:

> Thoughts?

Big +1 from me, although you probably saw that coming ;-)

Seriously though, I want to see mod_lua here at the ASF eventually.  I
had originally thought of it as a good example of a labs type project
(assuming that labs.apache.org gets off the ground), but it certainly
has the potential to grow into something more than that (with an
actual community, releases, etc), and if that's the path that Brian
wants to head down, the best home for it seems to be in the HTTP
Server PMC.

-garrett

Re: mod_wombat

[david reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>]

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Nov 8, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Paul Querna wrote:
> 
>> Brian has expressed interest in brining mod_wombat to the ASF.
>>
>> Is there interest in this PMC to bring it in under us?
> 
> It sounds like there is enough interest, given the old theory that
> three committers are enough to support most any module.  I don't
> think it should be part of the default module set, though, at least
> not until there is a compelling reason.
> 
> The procedure is:
> 
>   (1) make this thread a formal vote
> 
> and, assuming that passes
> 
>   (2) fill out the incubation paperwork at
>       <http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html>
> 
> and then
> 
>   (3) import the code under httpd/mod_wombat
> 
> Brian is not currently an httpd committer, but it should not be
> hard for us to approve module commit access for an ASF member.
> 
> I am personally +0 on the idea, but my only reservation is that
> we have too many eggs in one basket already.  One of these days,
> some kind soul will have the energy to build a CPAN-like module
> registry and distribution mechanism.

We've talked about it often enough :-)

I even started looking at a replacement for modules.apache.org but it's
died a death at present...

>> I am personally interested in it because I believe it could be one of
>> the paths taken for an httpd 3.0 in which Lua was embedded, replacing
>> the config system and other large areas of C code.
> 
> I am struggling to see what Lua could possibly add (or subtract)
> from a config system.  Using coroutines for request handling might
> be fun, but placing a coroutine interpreter in the core has all
> sorts of security implications (not to mention that Lua is a
> separate code base that we have no control over).  However, it
> would make an interesting experiment.
> 
> ....Roy
> 
> 


-- 
david

http://feathercast.org/

CPAN for HTTPD, was Re: mod_wombat

[Paul Querna <pq...@apache.org>]

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> I am personally +0 on the idea, but my only reservation is that
> we have too many eggs in one basket already.  One of these days,
> some kind soul will have the energy to build a CPAN-like module
> registry and distribution mechanism.

We talked about this in good detail back at ApacheCon EU 2005.  Its not 
going anywhere IMO.

It sounds like a great idea, except that for 95% of users, they will get 
  httpd via apt-get, yum, a CD, ports, or some other package system. 
Another CPAN-like system is generally a waste when there are already 
many great packaging systems out there.

Successful CPAN-like systems were mostly started back when package 
management was an enormous pain.  It still is on some platforms 
*cough*solaris*cough*, but they are generally the exception these days.

-Paul

Re: CPAN for HTTPD, was Re: mod_wombat

["William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>]

Paul Querna wrote:
> 
> Successful CPAN-like systems were mostly started back when package
> management was an enormous pain.  It still is on some platforms
> *cough*solaris*cough*, but they are generally the exception these days.

Also, in almost every case CPAN-style systems focus on one language, their
own, no matter if it's scripted or VM-style.  It means pluggable bits of
the core language are easily expanded.  Even PHP's Pear follows this basic
pattern.

C isn't Apache, and Apache modules, although many, many are written in C,
can be implemented in many languages.  I tend to agree with Paul that the
plug-n-go style package repositories are a better fit, even when they come
up short on Solaris/Win32/etc.

CPAN for HTTPD, was Re: mod_wombat

[Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com>]

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> I am personally +0 on the idea, but my only reservation is that
> we have too many eggs in one basket already.  One of these days,
> some kind soul will have the energy to build a CPAN-like module
> registry and distribution mechanism.

We talked about this in good detail back at ApacheCon EU 2005.  Its not
going anywhere IMO.

It sounds like a great idea, except that for 95% of users, they will get
  httpd via apt-get, yum, a CD, ports, or some other package system.
Another CPAN-like system is generally a waste when there are already
many great packaging systems out there.

Successful CPAN-like systems were mostly started back when package
management was an enormous pain.  It still is on some platforms
*cough*solaris*cough*, but they are generally the exception these days.

-Paul

Re: [VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

[Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>]

On Nov 20, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Garrett Rooney wrote:

> Regardless of any plans people have to use this stuff in the core, it
> seems like the reason that mod_perl and mod_python either are separate
> TLPs or are pushing to be one is because their communities don't
> really overlap with that of core httpd.  In this case, other than
> Brian the majority of people who are interested in working on this
> stuff are httpd committers, and are intending on doing design
> work/discussions on httpd lists, so IMO there's no reason to jump to
> the "there won't be any overlap and thus the community will
> essentially be separate and thus call for its own TLP" conclusion at
> this time.

For what it's worth, I can easily see wombat going either way --  
whichever path is selected will become a self fulfilling prophecy.  
The proposal on the table is to set it up as part of the httpd  
project, and most of the other folks who have contributed (Paul and  
Garrett) would like to do it here. Martin, the fourth contributor,  
isn't an ASF committer, and I don't think feels strongly about how it  
eventually goes.

Mostly, I just want a "correct mailing list" right now so that  
discussions on private email, IRC, and IM can move there :-) I think  
the ASF is the right place to do this, and Paul and Garrett have  
convinced me that a subproject of httpd is the right path based on  
other folks' goals (which I am happy to support, but aren't my  
personal itch).

-Brian

Re: [VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

[Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>]

On 11/20/06, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> On 11/17/06, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> > I'm happy to see wombat enter the ASF, but as an httpd-sponsored incubation
> > project.  My question is, if we are punting mod_python out to a TLP, and
> > mod_perl is already a TLP - is this a fit as a subproject of httpd, or it's
> > own TLP?
>
> Given that Paul wants to use it as a core module (i.e. to replace the
> config) and I want it to do some crazy other stuff in the core
> (partially config, but more run-time), it doesn't make sense as a TLP.
>  So, I want it directly imported into our tree - not as a standalone
> or separate module.

Regardless of any plans people have to use this stuff in the core, it
seems like the reason that mod_perl and mod_python either are separate
TLPs or are pushing to be one is because their communities don't
really overlap with that of core httpd.  In this case, other than
Brian the majority of people who are interested in working on this
stuff are httpd committers, and are intending on doing design
work/discussions on httpd lists, so IMO there's no reason to jump to
the "there won't be any overlap and thus the community will
essentially be separate and thus call for its own TLP" conclusion at
this time.

-garrett

Re: [VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

[Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>]

On 11/17/06, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> I'm happy to see wombat enter the ASF, but as an httpd-sponsored incubation
> project.  My question is, if we are punting mod_python out to a TLP, and
> mod_perl is already a TLP - is this a fit as a subproject of httpd, or it's
> own TLP?

Given that Paul wants to use it as a core module (i.e. to replace the
config) and I want it to do some crazy other stuff in the core
(partially config, but more run-time), it doesn't make sense as a TLP.
 So, I want it directly imported into our tree - not as a standalone
or separate module.  -- justin

Re: [VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

["William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>]

I'm happy to see wombat enter the ASF, but as an httpd-sponsored incubation
project.  My question is, if we are punting mod_python out to a TLP, and
mod_perl is already a TLP - is this a fit as a subproject of httpd, or it's
own TLP?



Brian McCallister wrote:
> 
> On Nov 11, 2006, at 10:53 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> 
>> The procedure is:
>>
>>   (1) make this thread a formal vote
> 
> I'd like to transform this into a formal vote thread to accept the
> mod_wombat subproject. Specifically, we aim to make httpd scriptable via
> the Lua programming language, for modules and configuration.
> 
> -Brian
> 
> .
> 

Re: [VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

[Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>]

On Nov 19, 2006, at 6:58 AM, Graham Leggett wrote:

> I think the acceptance of mod_wombat and how config may become  
> scriptable are two very separate issues, I suggest a vote just for  
> the acceptance of mod_wombat first.

Yes. I am, quite assuredly as I would not of what I spoke, not  
proposing any changes to httpd, it is solely a module.

-Brian

Re: [VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

[Graham Leggett <mi...@sharp.fm>]

Brian McCallister wrote:

>> The procedure is:
>>
>>   (1) make this thread a formal vote
> 
> I'd like to transform this into a formal vote thread to accept the 
> mod_wombat subproject. Specifically, we aim to make httpd scriptable via 
> the Lua programming language, for modules and configuration.

I think the acceptance of mod_wombat and how config may become 
scriptable are two very separate issues, I suggest a vote just for the 
acceptance of mod_wombat first.

Regards,
Graham
--

[VOTE] Re: mod_wombat

[Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>]

On Nov 11, 2006, at 10:53 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:

> The procedure is:
>
>   (1) make this thread a formal vote

I'd like to transform this into a formal vote thread to accept the  
mod_wombat subproject. Specifically, we aim to make httpd scriptable  
via the Lua programming language, for modules and configuration.

-Brian

Re: mod_wombat

["Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>]

On Nov 8, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Paul Querna wrote:

> Brian has expressed interest in brining mod_wombat to the ASF.
>
> Is there interest in this PMC to bring it in under us?

It sounds like there is enough interest, given the old theory that
three committers are enough to support most any module.  I don't
think it should be part of the default module set, though, at least
not until there is a compelling reason.

The procedure is:

   (1) make this thread a formal vote

and, assuming that passes

   (2) fill out the incubation paperwork at
       <http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html>

and then

   (3) import the code under httpd/mod_wombat

Brian is not currently an httpd committer, but it should not be
hard for us to approve module commit access for an ASF member.

I am personally +0 on the idea, but my only reservation is that
we have too many eggs in one basket already.  One of these days,
some kind soul will have the energy to build a CPAN-like module
registry and distribution mechanism.

> I am personally interested in it because I believe it could be one of
> the paths taken for an httpd 3.0 in which Lua was embedded, replacing
> the config system and other large areas of C code.

I am struggling to see what Lua could possibly add (or subtract)
from a config system.  Using coroutines for request handling might
be fun, but placing a coroutine interpreter in the core has all
sorts of security implications (not to mention that Lua is a
separate code base that we have no control over).  However, it
would make an interesting experiment.

....Roy

Re: mod_wombat

[Ruediger Pluem <rp...@apache.org>]

On 11/08/2006 07:16 PM, Paul Querna wrote:

> 
> I am personally interested in it because I believe it could be one of
> the paths taken for an httpd 3.0 in which Lua was embedded, replacing
> the config system and other large areas of C code.

What is bad about the C code?

Regards

Rüdiger

Re: mod_wombat

[Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com>]

Nick Kew wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 10:16:33 -0800
> Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com> wrote:
> 
>> Brian has expressed interest in brining mod_wombat to the ASF.
>>
>> Is there interest in this PMC to bring it in under us?
> 
> Just to be clear about it: presumably you're proposing it have 
> a similar kind of status to mod_perl or mod_python?
> 

I don't know.

I am personally divided on the problem of sub-projects vs including 
things in the core.

I think to start, it would be a separate project in release terms, but 
use dev@httpd, rather than spawning its own mailing lists?

What do you think?

-Paul

Re: mod_wombat

[Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>]

On 11/8/06, Ruediger Pluem <rp...@apache.org> wrote:
> +1 for this if it is a subproject like mod_perl or mod_python. It may
> go into the core or not in the future, but I think its dependency on
> libapreq2 which is *currently* not part of the core makes it impossible
> at the *current* point of time to add it to the core.

Oh, yah, mod_wombat can't depend on libapreq2 to be brought into the
core; but I am interested in the LUA engine being integrated into the
core for my own purposes as well.

So, +1.  (And after some other stuff clears off my plate, I'd love to
help with this.)  -- justin

Re: mod_wombat

[Ruediger Pluem <rp...@apache.org>]

On 11/08/2006 07:31 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:
> 
> On Nov 8, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Nick Kew wrote:
> 
>> Just to be clear about it: presumably you're proposing it have
>> a similar kind of status to mod_perl or mod_python?
> 
> 
> Yes.

+1 for this if it is a subproject like mod_perl or mod_python. It may
go into the core or not in the future, but I think its dependency on
libapreq2 which is *currently* not part of the core makes it impossible
at the *current* point of time to add it to the core.


Regards

Rüdiger

Re: mod_wombat

[Nick Kew <ni...@webthing.com>]

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:31:42 -0800
Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org> wrote:

> 
> On Nov 8, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Nick Kew wrote:
> 
> > Just to be clear about it: presumably you're proposing it have
> > a similar kind of status to mod_perl or mod_python?
> 
> Yes.

+1 to that.

-1 to anything that makes it a requirement for everyone.

-- 
Nick Kew

Application Development with Apache - the Apache Modules Book
http://www.apachetutor.org/

Re: mod_wombat

[Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>]

On Nov 8, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Nick Kew wrote:

> Just to be clear about it: presumably you're proposing it have
> a similar kind of status to mod_perl or mod_python?

Yes.

-Brian

Re: mod_wombat

[Nick Kew <ni...@webthing.com>]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 10:16:33 -0800
Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com> wrote:

> Brian has expressed interest in brining mod_wombat to the ASF.
> 
> Is there interest in this PMC to bring it in under us?

Just to be clear about it: presumably you're proposing it have 
a similar kind of status to mod_perl or mod_python?

-- 
Nick Kew

Application Development with Apache - the Apache Modules Book
http://www.apachetutor.org/