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Posted to fop-users@xmlgraphics.apache.org by Vincent Hennebert <vh...@gmail.com> on 2006/08/11 16:49:52 UTC
[Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Dear Fop users,
I'm currently thinking about the implementation of side-floats
(<fo:float float="start/end">) into Fop. It turns out that there is a
choice to make between several design decisions which imply different
behaviors regarding the placement of floats on the page.
To help me make a decision, I'd like to know which usage you would make
of side-floats: on a general manner, what sort of typographic material
would you typeset using side-floats? Particular things of which we don't
think in the first place?
More specifically, as the XSL-FO recommendation allows some freedom in
these areas:
- would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on the
following page?
- would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
- would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the bottom
(thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
following page)?
Any comments, remarks, hints of all sort would be welcome.
Thanks,
Vincent
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Re: [Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Posted by "J.Pietschmann" <j3...@yahoo.de>.
Vincent Hennebert wrote:
> - would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
> anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on the
> following page?
This should not happen unless two (or more) side flows anchored at the
same line are stacked. I'm not sure whether the spec has additional
guidelines.
> - would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
This can be controlled using keeps. So yes, side floats should probably
be broken across pages by default, if such breaks are possible.
> - would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
> side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the bottom
> (thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
> following page)?
Probably yes. I have some difficulty imaging what you actually have in
mind.
J.Pietschmann
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Re: [Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Posted by John Burgess <jo...@riskdecisions.com>.
Vincent
We currently produce software documentation with very wide margins and
put the section headings in these margins. This currently requires a
lot of fairly complicated work with tables. I could imagine side-floats
being useful for simplifying this, providing that the side floats are
always kept with the text they are associated with.
--
Best wishes
John Burgess
Risk Decisions Limited
Buchan House
Parkway Court
Oxford Business Park South
OX4 2JY
T: 01865 718666
F: 01865 718600
M: 07984 863890
E: john.burgess@riskdecisions.com
W: http://www.riskdecisions.com
Vincent Hennebert wrote:
> Dear Fop users,
>
> I'm currently thinking about the implementation of side-floats
> (<fo:float float="start/end">) into Fop. It turns out that there is a
> choice to make between several design decisions which imply different
> behaviors regarding the placement of floats on the page.
>
> To help me make a decision, I'd like to know which usage you would make
> of side-floats: on a general manner, what sort of typographic material
> would you typeset using side-floats? Particular things of which we don't
> think in the first place?
>
> More specifically, as the XSL-FO recommendation allows some freedom in
> these areas:
> - would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
> anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on the
> following page?
> - would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
> - would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
> side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the bottom
> (thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
> following page)?
>
>
>
> Any comments, remarks, hints of all sort would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Vincent
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: fop-users-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: fop-users-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org
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Re: [Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Posted by Glen Mazza <gm...@apache.org>.
Vincent, in considering this, you may wish to also keep in mind: what
do you see as the usage difference between side-floats and the
xsl:region-start and xsl:region-end regions? I mention this, just to
make sure that use cases actually intended for side regions do not move
into side-floats, and vice-versa.
Glen
Vincent Hennebert wrote:
> Dear Fop users,
>
> I'm currently thinking about the implementation of side-floats
> (<fo:float float="start/end">) into Fop. It turns out that there is a
> choice to make between several design decisions which imply different
> behaviors regarding the placement of floats on the page.
>
> To help me make a decision, I'd like to know which usage you would make
> of side-floats: on a general manner, what sort of typographic material
> would you typeset using side-floats? Particular things of which we don't
> think in the first place?
>
> More specifically, as the XSL-FO recommendation allows some freedom in
> these areas:
> - would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
> anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on the
> following page?
> - would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
> - would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
> side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the bottom
> (thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
> following page)?
>
>
>
> Any comments, remarks, hints of all sort would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Vincent
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: fop-users-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: fop-users-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Posted by Benoit Maisonny <be...@synclude.com>.
Jeremias Maerki said:
> For the example you showed below, you don't need fo:float. You can do
that using fo:block-container:
>
> <fo:block-container start-indent="-4.5mm" height="1.2em"
> space-after="-1.2em">
> <fo:block start-indent="0mm" font-family="Symbol"
> width="4.5mm">←</fo:block>
> </fo:block-container>
You're right in a block context, but this does not work in an inline
context. inline-container does not remove its content from the flow. (am I
missing something?)
On top of it, block-container has the same problem as float: in a
table-cell context, their start-indent is computed relatively to the cell
left border, not to the region-body left border. Hence, my need for
absolute positionning on the inline progression dimension.
There are numerous examples on the Web of marginalia in XSL-FO, but none
using tables.
Suggestions welcome!
>
>
> On 13.08.2006 12:08:30 Benoit Maisonny wrote:
>> Vincent Hennebert said:
>> > Dear Fop users,
>> >
>> > I'm currently thinking about the implementation of side-floats
(<fo:float float="start/end">) into Fop.
>> This is great news! Lack of side float support have actually prevented us
>> from using FOP in our main XSL-FO application, for the last 4 years or so.
>> > It turns out that there is a
>> > choice to make between several design decisions which imply different
behaviors regarding the placement of floats on the page.
>> >
>> > To help me make a decision, I'd like to know which usage you would
>> make
>> > of side-floats: on a general manner, what sort of typographic
material
>> > would you typeset using side-floats? Particular things of which we
>> don't
>> > think in the first place?
>> We're using side floats to implement a kind of marginalia. When some
content was deleted from the previous version of a document, our
clients
>> want to see a change bar and a left-pointing arrow in the left margin.
Example:
>> <fo:float font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm" float="left"
>> start-indent="-6mm+1.5mm">
>> <fo:block font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm"
>> >←</fo:block>
>> </fo:float>
>> The negative start-indent puts the float in the left margin, out of the
content flow. The objective is to not affect the content layout. We
expect this start-float to appear roughly at the same height as its
anchor, and certainly on the same page.
>> >
>> > More specifically, as the XSL-FO recommendation allows some freedom
in
>> > these areas:
>> > - would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
>> > anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on
>> the
>> > following page?
>> We expect them on the same page, whatever happens. However, we put
those
>> floats in the margin, so that they don't alter the region-body layout
at
>> all.
>> > - would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
>> There's nothing to split in our case: we only have a single character
in
>> the float.
>> > - would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
>> > side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the
bottom
>> > (thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
following page)?
>> >
>> It would be problematic for us if a document had so many deletions that
the side-floats would stack horizontally and begin to alter the text
layout, or to stack vertically (with fo:float clear attribute) and be
pushed to the next page.
>> The ideal for us would be to stack them on the z-axis.
>> >
>> >
>> > Any comments, remarks, hints of all sort would be welcome.
>> I wish we could position the float in the margin using absolute x
coordinates. So, we could position the float at say -6mm from the left
border of region-body and at the same height (y axis) as the anchor. If
I'm not mistaken, this is not possible in XSL-FO, because we're mixing
absolute and relative positioning.
>> I haven't looked in details into XSL-FO 1.1 change bars, so I don't
know
>> if that new feature would cover our use case (i.e. if we can somehow make
>> the change bar look like an arrow).
>> Thanks for the poll,
>> Benoit
>
>
>
> Jeremias Maerki
>
>
..................................................
Benoit Maisonny benoit@synclude.com
Director & Consultant http://synclude.com
Synclude
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Re: [Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>.
For the example you showed below, you don't need fo:float. You can do
that using fo:block-container:
<fo:block-container start-indent="-4.5mm" height="1.2em" space-after="-1.2em">
<fo:block start-indent="0mm" font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm">←</fo:block>
</fo:block-container>
On 13.08.2006 12:08:30 Benoit Maisonny wrote:
>
> Vincent Hennebert said:
> > Dear Fop users,
> >
> > I'm currently thinking about the implementation of side-floats
> > (<fo:float float="start/end">) into Fop.
>
> This is great news! Lack of side float support have actually prevented us
> from using FOP in our main XSL-FO application, for the last 4 years or so.
>
> > It turns out that there is a
> > choice to make between several design decisions which imply different
> > behaviors regarding the placement of floats on the page.
> >
> > To help me make a decision, I'd like to know which usage you would make
> > of side-floats: on a general manner, what sort of typographic material
> > would you typeset using side-floats? Particular things of which we don't
> > think in the first place?
>
> We're using side floats to implement a kind of marginalia. When some
> content was deleted from the previous version of a document, our clients
> want to see a change bar and a left-pointing arrow in the left margin.
>
> Example:
> <fo:float font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm" float="left"
> start-indent="-6mm+1.5mm">
> <fo:block font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm"
> >←</fo:block>
> </fo:float>
>
> The negative start-indent puts the float in the left margin, out of the
> content flow. The objective is to not affect the content layout.
>
> We expect this start-float to appear roughly at the same height as its
> anchor, and certainly on the same page.
>
> >
> > More specifically, as the XSL-FO recommendation allows some freedom in
> > these areas:
> > - would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
> > anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on the
> > following page?
>
> We expect them on the same page, whatever happens. However, we put those
> floats in the margin, so that they don't alter the region-body layout at
> all.
>
> > - would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
>
> There's nothing to split in our case: we only have a single character in
> the float.
>
> > - would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
> > side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the bottom
> > (thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
> > following page)?
> >
>
> It would be problematic for us if a document had so many deletions that
> the side-floats would stack horizontally and begin to alter the text
> layout, or to stack vertically (with fo:float clear attribute) and be
> pushed to the next page.
>
> The ideal for us would be to stack them on the z-axis.
>
> >
> >
> > Any comments, remarks, hints of all sort would be welcome.
>
> I wish we could position the float in the margin using absolute x
> coordinates. So, we could position the float at say -6mm from the left
> border of region-body and at the same height (y axis) as the anchor. If
> I'm not mistaken, this is not possible in XSL-FO, because we're mixing
> absolute and relative positioning.
>
> I haven't looked in details into XSL-FO 1.1 change bars, so I don't know
> if that new feature would cover our use case (i.e. if we can somehow make
> the change bar look like an arrow).
>
> Thanks for the poll,
> Benoit
Jeremias Maerki
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Re: [Poll] Expectations regarding side-floats
Posted by Benoit Maisonny <be...@synclude.com>.
Vincent Hennebert said:
> Dear Fop users,
>
> I'm currently thinking about the implementation of side-floats
> (<fo:float float="start/end">) into Fop.
This is great news! Lack of side float support have actually prevented us
from using FOP in our main XSL-FO application, for the last 4 years or so.
> It turns out that there is a
> choice to make between several design decisions which imply different
> behaviors regarding the placement of floats on the page.
>
> To help me make a decision, I'd like to know which usage you would make
> of side-floats: on a general manner, what sort of typographic material
> would you typeset using side-floats? Particular things of which we don't
> think in the first place?
We're using side floats to implement a kind of marginalia. When some
content was deleted from the previous version of a document, our clients
want to see a change bar and a left-pointing arrow in the left margin.
Example:
<fo:float font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm" float="left"
start-indent="-6mm+1.5mm">
<fo:block font-family="Symbol" width="4.5mm"
>←</fo:block>
</fo:float>
The negative start-indent puts the float in the left margin, out of the
content flow. The objective is to not affect the content layout.
We expect this start-float to appear roughly at the same height as its
anchor, and certainly on the same page.
>
> More specifically, as the XSL-FO recommendation allows some freedom in
> these areas:
> - would you expect a side-float being placed on another page than its
> anchor? Would you prefer the whole chunk of text to be deferred on the
> following page?
We expect them on the same page, whatever happens. However, we put those
floats in the margin, so that they don't alter the region-body layout at
all.
> - would you expect a side-float being split on several pages?
There's nothing to split in our case: we only have a single character in
the float.
> - would you expect different layouts, depending on whether a set of
> side-floats would be placed on the middle of a page or at the bottom
> (thus, with some of them on the current page and the others on the
> following page)?
>
It would be problematic for us if a document had so many deletions that
the side-floats would stack horizontally and begin to alter the text
layout, or to stack vertically (with fo:float clear attribute) and be
pushed to the next page.
The ideal for us would be to stack them on the z-axis.
>
>
> Any comments, remarks, hints of all sort would be welcome.
I wish we could position the float in the margin using absolute x
coordinates. So, we could position the float at say -6mm from the left
border of region-body and at the same height (y axis) as the anchor. If
I'm not mistaken, this is not possible in XSL-FO, because we're mixing
absolute and relative positioning.
I haven't looked in details into XSL-FO 1.1 change bars, so I don't know
if that new feature would cover our use case (i.e. if we can somehow make
the change bar look like an arrow).
Thanks for the poll,
Benoit
>
> Thanks,
> Vincent
>
..................................................
Benoit Maisonny benoit@synclude.com
Director & Consultant http://synclude.com
Synclude
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