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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> on 2000/12/07 16:20:14 UTC
[certification] (was Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:58:48PM +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
> > > By the way, does mod_perl have a "board of directors"? If there was a
> > > mod_perl consortium backing mod_perl (Merlyn, Lincoln, Doug, Stas
> > > etc) formally, I'm sure we could get some pretty serious notice.
> >
> > Yes, it's called Project Management Committee (pmc) and currently the
> > members are Doug, Eric Cholet, Ask and me. This committee is a part of the
> > Apache Software Foundation (ASF) group, which has pmc for every project
> > hosted under ASF umbrella.
> >
>
> So, if we were to look for a mod_perl certification, shouldn't this
> group of fine, upstanding people be the ones to design it, and have
> merlyn administer it through his site, or maybe this group could form
> a subcommittee to do the dirty work (grading, signing certificates,
> keeping track of certificate numbers, setting up mailing lists, etc).
Obviously that if this is going to happen, the teaching entity that
actually gets paid for their time, will do all the work. Certainly we can
"help" to define and fine tune the details at least to review things, but
you understand that we cannot sign certificates, because we aren't the
part of the whatever company which will do the certification.
> I truly believe that what worked for M$ could work for us. M$ proved that the
> key to getting any technology accepted, no matter how inferior, was to create
> a group of people who could advocate, administer, and sell the technology.
It's all true, but Randal is right by saying that you need certification
when you have herds of programmers and you want to have some easy (not
always good) way to leverage them. The only reason I've suggested the
certification idea is to do the the other way around to create the herd of
mod_perl programmers, because we have a certification program. Of course I
can be wrong, it's just an idea.
> If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> out my wife . . .
:)
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: [certification]
Posted by Marc Spitzer <ms...@optonline.net>.
I agree with Eric, for consultants you should focus on skills and brains
and for employees you should focus on BRAINS. They will be there long
enough to pick up the skills and pay you back for the time you spent
training them. Remember smart people learn fast so it is not that much time
spent on training. Also this will build loyalty and that translates into
lower turnover.
marc
ps I have never done any hiring in my life.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Strovink <st...@acm.org>
To: <mo...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, 7. December 2000 12:52
Subject: Re: [certification]
> Somebody wrote:
>
> > > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > out my wife . . .
>
> You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified"
engineer,
> and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of
shit.
>
> In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring
the wrong
> guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10
years.
> This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into
yet another
> compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You
hire him
> for something completely different, and he ends up being the most
enthusiastic and
> productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to
him. And
> believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can
figure out
> mod_perl.
>
> Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal
saying he's
> passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to <mumble>.
Uh, no
> thanks.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: modperl-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: modperl-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: [certification]
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 05:55 PM 12/7/00 -0600, Jimi Thompson wrote:
>Geeks know its just paper and that paper three appropriate uses (for
>writing on, paper
>airplanes, and TP). Geeks know that paper doesn't pass for
>credentials. The PHB's haven't
You miss the point.
It's not about credentials in a boolean sense. It's about probability and
statistics.
Someone who has credentials/training on their CV increases the probability
that they know something, it doesn't mean they definitely know something.
Obviously they still have to be technically interviewed, but in lieu of
someone with or without certification, it's easier to short-list on the
basis of such certification (or some equivalent outstanding thing such as
contributing to CPAN).
Everyone knows that a University Degree in CS doesn't mean someone is a
great programmer. And there's a ton of people out there who prove
otherwise. BUT out of people who are hacks and people who have degrees in
CS, the people with degrees in CS have a tendency to have a background that
make them better programmers.
Also different types of certs have different probabilities. A lot of people
know MCSE means little nowadays. But an MCSD is fairly difficult from what
I understand. And on the other end of the spectrum, the couple of people I
know who are fully 100% CISCO certified through and through are like
networking Gods (at least to me).
Degrees and certifications help narrow things down. It doesn't mean they
are perfect, but they definitely are not just TP as you so eloquently put it.
Re: [certification]
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 06:30 PM 12/7/2000 -0800, Rob Tanner wrote:
>--On Thursday, December 07, 2000 05:55:41 PM -0600 Jimi Thompson
><jt...@link.com> wrote:
>
>>See - I KNEW IT!!!
>>
>>You aren't a PHB. You have to look at this like a PHB. PHB's don't care
>>if the
>>paper means anything relevant. PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and
>>Glory
>>Hogging. If they can't take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed
>>for it
>>either.
>>
>>If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had <fill in the
>>blank> so I thought he was qualified. On the other hand, if it does well
>>then he
>>can then take the credit because the person he hired had <fill in the blank>.
>
>That may well be true -- I won't dispute it. :-)
>
>But the real question is, and maybe this is the pivotal point of the whole
>issue -- is that the kind of place you want to work at?
>
>Where the hiring process becomes so separated from the actual work that
>you're evaluated by your certificates, you and your certificates become
>one and are interchangeable. You're no longer a whole and complete person
>and become reduced to but a "certificate" of your former self. It's a
>dehumanization, and unfortunately, a fairly wide-spread trend. On the up
>side, however, it does tell me where to not even bother applying.
I've never been in a place that only hired people with certificates. But
again, to me it's not about the certs being a boolean decision to hire or
not, it's about probabilities.
If someone doesn't have experience except they have a cert, I'll see them.
If you have no cert but you have demonstrated experience on your CV, I'll
see you.
If you have no cert and no demonstrated experience, unless I am desperate
or am willing to hire interns/juniors (which I do hire but its not
appropriate for some projects), I won't see you.
As a person doing hiring, I don't think I am alone in this matter.
So the certs, degrees, training stuff all help. And it's not dehumanizing.
It's just another factor on the CV that can help boost someone's chances of
getting noticed among all the CVs that lie and say they know Perl with
nothing to back it up.
Re: [certification]
Posted by Rob Tanner <rt...@cheshire.onlinemac.com>.
--On Thursday, December 07, 2000 05:55:41 PM -0600 Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com> wrote:
> See - I KNEW IT!!!
>
> You aren't a PHB. You have to look at this like a PHB. PHB's don't care if the
> paper means anything relevant. PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and Glory
> Hogging. If they can't take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed for it
> either.
>
> If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had <fill in the
> blank> so I thought he was qualified. On the other hand, if it does well then he
> can then take the credit because the person he hired had <fill in the blank>.
That may well be true -- I won't dispute it. :-)
But the real question is, and maybe this is the pivotal point of the whole issue --
is that the kind of place you want to work at?
Where the hiring process becomes so separated from the actual work that you're evaluated by your certificates, you and your certificates become one and are interchangeable. You're no longer a whole and complete person and become reduced to but a "certificate" of your former self. It's a dehumanization, and unfortunately, a fairly wide-spread trend. On the up side, however, it does tell me where to not even bother applying.
-- Rob
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
/\_\_\_\_\ /\_\ /\_\_\_\_\_\
/\/_/_/_/_/ /\/_/ \/_/_/_/_/_/ QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT,
/\/_/__\/_/ __ /\/_/ /\/_/ PROFUNDUM VIDITUR
/\/_/_/_/_/ /\_\ /\/_/ /\/_/
/\/_/ \/_/ /\/_/_/\/_/ /\/_/ (Whatever is said in Latin
\/_/ \/_/ \/_/_/_/_/ \/_/ appears profound)
Rob Tanner
McMinnville, Oregon
rtanner@cheshire.onlinemac.com
Re: [certification]
Posted by Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com>.
See - I KNEW IT!!!
You aren't a PHB. You have to look at this like a PHB. PHB's don't care if the paper means
anything relevant. PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and Glory Hogging. If they can't
take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed for it either.
If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had <fill in the blank> so I
thought he was qualified. On the other hand, if it does well then he can then take the
credit because the person he hired had <fill in the blank>.
Heck, I got started in the IT business professionally years ago because I fooled a PHB into
letting me take over his network while working on a degree in Biochemistry. He actually
thought it had something to do with computers.
Geeks know its just paper and that paper three appropriate uses (for writing on, paper
airplanes, and TP). Geeks know that paper doesn't pass for credentials. The PHB's haven't
gotten around to that idea yet. They probably never will. Personally, I don't mind getting
the paper. It usually means that the PHB's are willing to put more zero's on my paycheck
because I have acquired another piece of paper. Getting more zero's from the PHB's is a good
thing.
Eric Strovink wrote:
> You smoked me out -- lots of hair, all limp. And yes, I am a "geeks dream boss." I'm a
> geek.
>
> Jimi Thompson wrote:
>
> > Eric,
> >
> > You fail to understand that while you are probably a geeks dream boss, you are not the
> > average PHB. Heck, your hair is probably limp ;). The idea here is to gain acceptance
> > and even status with the PHB. PHB's like paper. It doesn't matter if its a useful
> > piece of paper or not (MCSE's are a PRIME example of a useless paper - as are many
> > college degrees). They live for paper. Its job security for them. It makes them feel
> > warm and fuzzy inside. It also allows them to cover their butts should anything go
> > wrong with said hire-ee.
> >
> > Eric Strovink wrote:
> >
> > > Somebody wrote:
> > >
> > > > > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > > > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > > > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > > > out my wife . . .
> > >
> > > You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer,
> > > and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit.
> > >
> > > In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong
> > > guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years.
> > > This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another
> > > compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him
> > > for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and
> > > productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And
> > > believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out
> > > mod_perl.
> > >
> > > Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's
> > > passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to <mumble>. Uh, no
> > > thanks.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: modperl-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: modperl-help@apache.org
> >
> > --
> > Jimi Thompson
> > Web Master
> > L3 communications
> >
> > "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."
--
Jimi Thompson
Web Master
L3 communications
"It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."
Re: [certification]
Posted by Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com>.
Eric,
You fail to understand that while you are probably a geeks dream boss, you are not the
average PHB. Heck, your hair is probably limp ;). The idea here is to gain acceptance
and even status with the PHB. PHB's like paper. It doesn't matter if its a useful
piece of paper or not (MCSE's are a PRIME example of a useless paper - as are many
college degrees). They live for paper. Its job security for them. It makes them feel
warm and fuzzy inside. It also allows them to cover their butts should anything go
wrong with said hire-ee.
Eric Strovink wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
>
> > > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > out my wife . . .
>
> You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer,
> and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit.
>
> In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong
> guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years.
> This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another
> compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him
> for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and
> productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And
> believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out
> mod_perl.
>
> Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's
> passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to <mumble>. Uh, no
> thanks.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: modperl-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: modperl-help@apache.org
--
Jimi Thompson
Web Master
L3 communications
"It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."
Re: [certification]
Posted by Todd Diep <td...@employees.org>.
Certification does have its merits. I know this analogy is not
quite correct but its the only one that comes to mind. Would
you have a nurse or a doctor treat your abdominal pains? I rather
not have the abdominal pains in the first place but I rather
have the doctor treat me than the nurse. If money was not an
big issue, would you have a plumber or a certified plumber
working on your broken bathroom pipe?
Sadly but true that a lot of "certified" professionals whatever
out there are who are not really deserving of the title "certified ...".
How, as a business owner, manager, etc., determine whether or not
you are as good as you say you are? Its difficult unless you
personally know him.
I believe that certification is a good thing. It gives a
field of expertise credibility. It can make it attractive for
people to choose a field of study.
My question is now:
Is it possible for a open source community to certified each other?
Is it credible?
Flames welcome,
..todd
>
> > Somebody wrote:
> >
> >> > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> >> > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> >> > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> >> > out my wife . . .
> >
> > You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified"
> > engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks
> > of shit.
> >
>
> I'd have to concur. A certificate means you can pass a test, it doesn't mean you can code your way out of wet paper bag. I consider myself a very good coder, but I
> don't do well on true/false, multiple choice, and similar kinds of tests. I've also done hiring, and in my previous job, I regularly did peer interviews. I can discover far more about a person's abilities by talking to him or her for a few minutes and exploring some hypothetical ideas and/or programming scenarios or just talking about stuff they've written.
Re: [certification]
Posted by Rob Tanner <rt...@cheshire.onlinemac.com>.
--On Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:52:44 PM -0500 Eric Strovink <st...@acm.org>
wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
>
>> > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
>> > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
>> > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
>> > out my wife . . .
>
> You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified"
> engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks
> of shit.
>
I'd have to concur. A certificate means you can pass a test, it doesn't mean you can code your way out of wet paper bag. I consider myself a very good coder, but I
don't do well on true/false, multiple choice, and similar kinds of tests. I've also done hiring, and in my previous job, I regularly did peer interviews. I can discover far more about a person's abilities by talking to him or her for a few minutes and exploring some hypothetical ideas and/or programming scenarios or just talking about stuff they've written.
-- Rob
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
/\_\_\_\_\ /\_\ /\_\_\_\_\_\
/\/_/_/_/_/ /\/_/ \/_/_/_/_/_/ QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT,
/\/_/__\/_/ __ /\/_/ /\/_/ PROFUNDUM VIDITUR
/\/_/_/_/_/ /\_\ /\/_/ /\/_/
/\/_/ \/_/ /\/_/_/\/_/ /\/_/ (Whatever is said in Latin
\/_/ \/_/ \/_/_/_/_/ \/_/ appears profound)
Rob Tanner
McMinnville, Oregon
rtanner@cheshire.onlinemac.com
Re: [certification]
Posted by Eric Strovink <st...@acm.org>.
Somebody wrote:
> > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > out my wife . . .
You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer,
and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit.
In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong
guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years.
This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another
compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him
for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and
productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And
believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out
mod_perl.
Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's
passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to <mumble>. Uh, no
thanks.