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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> on 2006/03/20 13:11:10 UTC
[OT] What can I do?
In the midst of a recent mosh-pit thread, someone asked "What can I
do to change the direction of the Apache Struts project?"
The answer would be to summarize the concerns raised in the thread and
create a coherent proposal that lays out another course. (An obvious
place to do that would be the Apache Struts wiki.) When ready, call
for a vote on dev@ as to the proposal.
That's how directions like Shale and WebWork/Action2 were set, and if
anyone wanted to change these directions, simply follow the same
protocol.
Now, I should note that the binding votes on the Shale subproject and
WebWork/Action2 proposals were unanimous, with no dissents or waffling
by PMC members. To succeed, a proposal for an alternative direction
would need to be compelling.
Of course, if someone felt the Apache Struts PMC was being
unreasonable, intransient, and insular, or has otherwise become a
roadblock to innovation, then someone could appeal to the ASF Board of
Directors. The PMC serves at the pleasure of the board, and the board
can retire or reconstitute the PMC as it sees fit. For more about how
the ASF works, see
* http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
Though, right now, the method behind our madness goes something like this:
* Both the ASF and Apache Struts are standard-bearers, and, like it or
not, JSF is a designated Java standard. Given volunteers, we believe
that it is appropriate that Apache Struts provide JSF developers with
a MVC framework to fill in the gaps left by JSR 127, just like Struts
Action fills in the gaps left by the servlet platform
* The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
that would take some effort to remedy. Since neither the ASF nor
Apache Struts advocates "Not Invented Here Syndrome", we chose to
adopt WebWork as Struts Action 2 -- much the same way that tens of
thousands of teams adopted Struts Action over a homebrew framework.
* Struts Action 1 has a significant installed base, and so long as
there are volunteers to do the work, the codebase will remain open for
improvement, in the Apache Way.
It's no coincidence that these three bullets represent the three
options every Java engineer faces today:
* Do we try JSF?
* Do we try a second-generation framework?
* Do we stay the course?
Since we are working engineers, with day jobs at which we write real
applications, we are providing our own alternative to each option.
Is that good marketing? I really don't know. I didn't come here for
the marketing, I came here for the engineering. The marketing I'll
leave to the likes of IBM, Microsoft, Sun, and Zend.
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/20/06, Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote:
>
> Don't know if this has been mentioned, but the WebWork guys have been
> doing something similar:
> http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/wikidocs/J2SE%205%20Support.html
>
> It'd be nice if we could come up with a common set of annotations shared
> by both Action 1 and 2 (possibly Shale) along
> the lines of Stripes to help transitions.
Good idea! The annotations that Shale supports today (in the Tiger
Extensions library) are all JSF-specific things ... something along these
lines would be a positive addition.
Don
Craig
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Ted,
> >>
> >> In response to your comment:
> >>
> >> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
> >> that would take some effort to remedy."
> >>
> >> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost
> cause.
> >> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves
> (to me
> >> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base
> to
> >> something with compelling features and free from the issues often
> associated
> >> with the Struts Action 1.
> >>
> >> See:
> >> http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
> >>
> >> Phil
> >
> >
> > I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London
> last
> > Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
> > applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context). I
> would
> > suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of
> the
> > base framework that made available features like this ... similar in
> spirit
> > to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
> >
> > Craig
> >
>
>
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>
Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk>.
I'll definitely take a look at this - should be possible to have
consistency with the annotations as long as they are covering the same
use cases.
Phil
Don Brown wrote:
> Don't know if this has been mentioned, but the WebWork guys have been
> doing something similar:
> http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/wikidocs/J2SE%205%20Support.html
>
> It'd be nice if we could come up with a common set of annotations
> shared by both Action 1 and 2 (possibly Shale) along the lines of
> Stripes to help transitions.
>
> Don
>
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
>
>> On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Ted,
>>>
>>> In response to your comment:
>>>
>>> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
>>> that would take some effort to remedy."
>>>
>>> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost
>>> cause.
>>> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves
>>> (to me
>>> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code
>>> base to
>>> something with compelling features and free from the issues often
>>> associated
>>> with the Struts Action 1.
>>>
>>> See:
>>> http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>>>
>>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London
>> last
>> Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
>> applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context).
>> I would
>> suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of
>> the
>> base framework that made available features like this ... similar in
>> spirit
>> to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org>.
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but the WebWork guys have been doing something similar:
http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/wikidocs/J2SE%205%20Support.html
It'd be nice if we could come up with a common set of annotations shared by both Action 1 and 2 (possibly Shale) along
the lines of Stripes to help transitions.
Don
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>> Ted,
>>
>> In response to your comment:
>>
>> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
>> that would take some effort to remedy."
>>
>> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause.
>> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me
>> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to
>> something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated
>> with the Struts Action 1.
>>
>> See:
>> http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>>
>> Phil
>
>
> I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London last
> Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
> applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context). I would
> suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of the
> base framework that made available features like this ... similar in spirit
> to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
>
> Craig
>
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Re: Applying Annotations to Struts (Re: [OT] What can I do?)
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Joe Germuska wrote:
> I haven't had a chance to look at Phil's work yet, but would just point
> out that it's possible to use annotations without requiring Java 5.
> That may not be an itch Phil wants to scratch, but worth keeping in mind
> unless there are other aspects which also require Java 5. I know my
> sysadmin has pretty much guaranteed that we are a year or more away from
> moving our hosted systems to Java 5, and I doubt he's the most
> conservative one out there. (well... maybe :) naah.)
>
> Spring, at least, supports Annotations in pre-Java-5, so there is an
> example that could be mined. I don't know how much extra effort it
> takes, but I thought I'd throw it out there...
Just curious Joe, are you talking about this sort of thing:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=39308
> Joe
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: Applying Annotations to Struts (Re: [OT] What can I do?)
Posted by Eddie O'Neil <ek...@gmail.com>.
Believe it or not, Beehive (http://beehive.apache.org) has been
applying Java 5 annotations to Struts 1.1 / 1.2 for a couple of years.
So, there's another existence proof that this is possible and can
even make things easier. :)
We've done this in a sub-project of Beehive called NetUI.
Certainly, NetUI isn't perfect -- what software ever is ;) -- but it's
worth taking a look at as a source of ideas and lessons learned. Rich
Feit (on the Beehive PMC and also a Struts committer) worked with Don
on Struts Ti, so I think that there's even an updated version of
NetUI's annotation model in the Ti sandbox.
If you're curious, there is some relevant NetUI documentation here:
http://beehive.apache.org/docs/1.0.1/netui/pageFlowControllers.html
and a few Beehive folks that are probably interested in sharing
lessons learned and maybe even helping build annotations for Struts
1.x / 2.x. :)
Eddie
On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From a workload point of view it wouldn't have made sense for me to go
> down the Java 1.4 annotations route to begin with. What would now make
> it quite difficult to do ex-post is because other Java 5 features are
> used in lots of places (e.g. lots of for ... loops), generics, etc - I
> pretty much accepted the Java 5 limitation from the beginning.
>
> Phil
>
>
> Joe Germuska wrote:
>
> > At 9:15 AM -0800 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Ted,
> >>>
> >>> In response to your comment:
> >>>
> >>> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
> >>> that would take some effort to remedy."
> >>>
> >>> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost
> >>> cause.
> >>> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions
> >>> proves (to me
> >>> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code
> >>> base to
> >>> something with compelling features and free from the issues often
> >>> associated
> >>> with the Struts Action 1.
> >>>
> >>> See:
> >>
> >> > http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London
> >> last
> >> Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
> >> applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context).
> >> I would
> >> suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of
> >> the
> >> base framework that made available features like this ... similar in
> >> spirit
> >> to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
> >
> >
> > I haven't had a chance to look at Phil's work yet, but would just
> > point out that it's possible to use annotations without requiring Java
> > 5. That may not be an itch Phil wants to scratch, but worth keeping
> > in mind unless there are other aspects which also require Java 5. I
> > know my sysadmin has pretty much guaranteed that we are a year or more
> > away from moving our hosted systems to Java 5, and I doubt he's the
> > most conservative one out there. (well... maybe :) naah.)
> >
> > Spring, at least, supports Annotations in pre-Java-5, so there is an
> > example that could be mined. I don't know how much extra effort it
> > takes, but I thought I'd throw it out there...
> >
> > Joe
> >
>
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Re: Applying Annotations to Struts (Re: [OT] What can I do?)
Posted by Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk>.
From a workload point of view it wouldn't have made sense for me to go
down the Java 1.4 annotations route to begin with. What would now make
it quite difficult to do ex-post is because other Java 5 features are
used in lots of places (e.g. lots of for ... loops), generics, etc - I
pretty much accepted the Java 5 limitation from the beginning.
Phil
Joe Germuska wrote:
> At 9:15 AM -0800 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan wrote:
>
>> On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ted,
>>>
>>> In response to your comment:
>>>
>>> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
>>> that would take some effort to remedy."
>>>
>>> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost
>>> cause.
>>> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions
>>> proves (to me
>>> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code
>>> base to
>>> something with compelling features and free from the issues often
>>> associated
>>> with the Struts Action 1.
>>>
>>> See:
>>
>> > http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London
>> last
>> Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
>> applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context).
>> I would
>> suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of
>> the
>> base framework that made available features like this ... similar in
>> spirit
>> to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
>
>
> I haven't had a chance to look at Phil's work yet, but would just
> point out that it's possible to use annotations without requiring Java
> 5. That may not be an itch Phil wants to scratch, but worth keeping
> in mind unless there are other aspects which also require Java 5. I
> know my sysadmin has pretty much guaranteed that we are a year or more
> away from moving our hosted systems to Java 5, and I doubt he's the
> most conservative one out there. (well... maybe :) naah.)
>
> Spring, at least, supports Annotations in pre-Java-5, so there is an
> example that could be mined. I don't know how much extra effort it
> takes, but I thought I'd throw it out there...
>
> Joe
>
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Applying Annotations to Struts (Re: [OT] What can I do?)
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
At 9:15 AM -0800 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan wrote:
>On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Ted,
>>
>> In response to your comment:
>>
>> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
>> that would take some effort to remedy."
>>
>> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause.
>> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me
>> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to
>> something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated
>> with the Struts Action 1.
>>
>> See:
> > http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>>
>> Phil
>
>
>I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London last
>Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
>applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context). I would
>suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of the
>base framework that made available features like this ... similar in spirit
>to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
I haven't had a chance to look at Phil's work yet, but would just
point out that it's possible to use annotations without requiring
Java 5. That may not be an itch Phil wants to scratch, but worth
keeping in mind unless there are other aspects which also require
Java 5. I know my sysadmin has pretty much guaranteed that we are a
year or more away from moving our hosted systems to Java 5, and I
doubt he's the most conservative one out there. (well... maybe :)
naah.)
Spring, at least, supports Annotations in pre-Java-5, so there is an
example that could be mined. I don't know how much extra effort it
takes, but I thought I'd throw it out there...
Joe
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com * http://blog.germuska.com
"You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and
even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed. Try something new."
-- Robert Moog
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Ted,
> >
> > In response to your comment:
> >
> > "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
> > that would take some effort to remedy."
> >
> > This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause.
> > The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me
> > at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to
> > something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated
> > with the Struts Action 1.
> >
> > See:
> > http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
> >
> > Phil
>
>
> I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London last
> Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
> applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context). I would
> suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of the
> base framework that made available features like this ... similar in spirit
> to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
>
> Craig
It this case it might be easier to switch to a framework that was
built with Java 5 from ground up:
http://mc4j.org/confluence/display/stripes/Home
Michael.
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Ted,
>
> In response to your comment:
>
> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
> that would take some effort to remedy."
>
> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause.
> The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me
> at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to
> something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated
> with the Struts Action 1.
>
> See:
> http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>
> Phil
I happened to see Phil's presentation to the JAVAWUG group in London last
Friday. There are some interesting ideas here (and they would seem
applicable in either a 1.x or 2.x Struts Action Framework context). I would
suggest thinking about an optional layer (requires JDK 1.5) on top of the
base framework that made available features like this ... similar in spirit
to what the Tiger Extensions do in Shale.
Craig
Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk>.
It will be very shortly. I am waiting for the project approval to go
through on java.net, which will hopefully be pretty quick. I'll make an
announcement then.
I haven't made any announcements on the user mailing list. I'll do so
when I've got the source (and a binary) ready on Java.net.
Phil
Ted Husted wrote:
>Is Strecks open to the public, now?
>
>There was the advance notice on dev@, but has there been an
>announcemen to user@ yet?
>
>-Ted.
>
>On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Ted,
>>
>>In response to your comment:
>>
>>"The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
>>that would take some effort to remedy."
>>
>>This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause. The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated with the Struts Action 1.
>>
>>See:
>>http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>>
>>Phil
>>
>>
>
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>
>
>
Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
Is Strecks open to the public, now?
There was the advance notice on dev@, but has there been an
announcemen to user@ yet?
-Ted.
On 3/20/06, Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk> wrote:
> Ted,
>
> In response to your comment:
>
> "The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
> that would take some effort to remedy."
>
> This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause. The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated with the Struts Action 1.
>
> See:
> http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
>
> Phil
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Phil Zoio <ph...@realsolve.co.uk>.
Ted,
In response to your comment:
"The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
that would take some effort to remedy."
This may be true, but I don't believe that it is a completely lost cause. The work that I have been doing with Struts Java 5 extensions proves (to me at least) that it is possible to move from the existing 1.2 code base to something with compelling features and free from the issues often associated with the Struts Action 1.
See:
http://www.realsolve.co.uk/site/strecks/index.php
Phil
Ted Husted wrote:
>In the midst of a recent mosh-pit thread, someone asked "What can I
>do to change the direction of the Apache Struts project?"
>
>The answer would be to summarize the concerns raised in the thread and
>create a coherent proposal that lays out another course. (An obvious
>place to do that would be the Apache Struts wiki.) When ready, call
>for a vote on dev@ as to the proposal.
>
>That's how directions like Shale and WebWork/Action2 were set, and if
>anyone wanted to change these directions, simply follow the same
>protocol.
>
>Now, I should note that the binding votes on the Shale subproject and
>WebWork/Action2 proposals were unanimous, with no dissents or waffling
>by PMC members. To succeed, a proposal for an alternative direction
>would need to be compelling.
>
>Of course, if someone felt the Apache Struts PMC was being
>unreasonable, intransient, and insular, or has otherwise become a
>roadblock to innovation, then someone could appeal to the ASF Board of
>Directors. The PMC serves at the pleasure of the board, and the board
>can retire or reconstitute the PMC as it sees fit. For more about how
>the ASF works, see
>
>* http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
>Though, right now, the method behind our madness goes something like this:
>
>* Both the ASF and Apache Struts are standard-bearers, and, like it or
>not, JSF is a designated Java standard. Given volunteers, we believe
>that it is appropriate that Apache Struts provide JSF developers with
>a MVC framework to fill in the gaps left by JSR 127, just like Struts
>Action fills in the gaps left by the servlet platform
>
>* The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
>that would take some effort to remedy. Since neither the ASF nor
>Apache Struts advocates "Not Invented Here Syndrome", we chose to
>adopt WebWork as Struts Action 2 -- much the same way that tens of
>thousands of teams adopted Struts Action over a homebrew framework.
>
>* Struts Action 1 has a significant installed base, and so long as
>there are volunteers to do the work, the codebase will remain open for
>improvement, in the Apache Way.
>
>It's no coincidence that these three bullets represent the three
>options every Java engineer faces today:
>
>* Do we try JSF?
>
>* Do we try a second-generation framework?
>
>* Do we stay the course?
>
>Since we are working engineers, with day jobs at which we write real
>applications, we are providing our own alternative to each option.
>
>Is that good marketing? I really don't know. I didn't come here for
>the marketing, I came here for the engineering. The marketing I'll
>leave to the likes of IBM, Microsoft, Sun, and Zend.
>
>-Ted.
>
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
What is the basis for saying "[b]oth ASF and Apache Struts are
standard-bearers"? What does this mean and what is the import, for both ASF
and Apache Struts, separately? This is not a challenge or anything like that
but a sincere request for clarification. What is a "standard-bearer". Are
you saying that both ASF and Struts are somehow beholden to Sun to do this?
Why is Struts seen as the standard-bearer for JSF. If a "standard-bearer"
was needed for JSF, why wasn't a separate one created?
Sun itself seems to be supporting the GlassFish project on this one, so why
does Struts also get the job? You can imagine all the questions about this
simple paragraph. The assumptions behind this little bit of what you had to
say are huge. Can you not flesh them out so that someone not into the
politics can see what is really going on? I cannot tell what this means.
On GlassFish:
https://glassfish.dev.java.net/public/faq/GF_FAQ_2.html#community,
https://glassfish.dev.java.net/ -- ,
https://javaserverfaces.dev.java.net/servlets/NewsItemView?newsItemID=3340 ,
http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Projects/GlassFishModuleOwners?rev=1.19 , and
at http://java.sun.com/javaee/javaserverfaces/ .
"*Current Status <http://java.sun.com/javaee/javaserverfaces/download.html>
* The latest build of JavaServer Faces technology 1.2 is integrated into the
GlassFish project. Click the Current Status link to read more about what's
happening now with JavaServer Faces Technology and to download
specifications and reference implementations."
Anyway, before anyone could make an intelligent proffer of anything they
would have to know what is the basis for your statements about ASF, Struts
and JSF, as well as a bit of clarification as to what you mean.
<snip>
On 3/20/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> * Both the ASF and Apache Struts are standard-bearers, and, like it or
> not, JSF is a designated Java standard. Given volunteers, we believe
> that it is appropriate that Apache Struts provide JSF developers with
> a MVC framework to fill in the gaps left by JSR 127, just like Struts
> Action fills in the gaps left by the servlet platform
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Excellent, thank you Craig!
Frank
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/20/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> That all sounds good Ted, thanks for writing this! Just to be clear,
>> *anyone* can write such a proposal and call for a vote, it doesn't have
>> to be a committer or PMC member, correct? I understand only those
>> people can cast binding votes (which would be ironic: the proposal
>> writer couldn't cast a binding vote for their own proposal!), but anyone
>> can make such a proposal, correct? If that is so, would it make sense
>> to announce it on the @user list as well, so that as many non-binding
>> votes could be cast as there is interest?
>
>
> It is correct that anyone can make such a proposal. It is also correct to
> recognize that existing committers represent the only binding votes on
> technical matters like "what should Struts 2.x look like" -- PMC-member
> votes are required only fo releases. That means, at the moment, that you
> have 22 people to lobby.
>
> Feel free to announce whatever you want wherever you want. Any formal vote,
> however, would be called on the Struts Developer list (and must be called by
> an existing committer to be relevant, so you'd better plan on recruiting at
> least one committer to make the formal proposal in the first place).
>
>
> Thanks again Ted, assuming anyone can make such a proposal, I think this
>> is an excellent post and I for one very much appreciate it!
>>
>> Frank
>
>
> Craig
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/20/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> That all sounds good Ted, thanks for writing this! Just to be clear,
> *anyone* can write such a proposal and call for a vote, it doesn't have
> to be a committer or PMC member, correct? I understand only those
> people can cast binding votes (which would be ironic: the proposal
> writer couldn't cast a binding vote for their own proposal!), but anyone
> can make such a proposal, correct? If that is so, would it make sense
> to announce it on the @user list as well, so that as many non-binding
> votes could be cast as there is interest?
It is correct that anyone can make such a proposal. It is also correct to
recognize that existing committers represent the only binding votes on
technical matters like "what should Struts 2.x look like" -- PMC-member
votes are required only fo releases. That means, at the moment, that you
have 22 people to lobby.
Feel free to announce whatever you want wherever you want. Any formal vote,
however, would be called on the Struts Developer list (and must be called by
an existing committer to be relevant, so you'd better plan on recruiting at
least one committer to make the formal proposal in the first place).
Thanks again Ted, assuming anyone can make such a proposal, I think this
> is an excellent post and I for one very much appreciate it!
>
> Frank
Craig
Re: [OT] What can I do?
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
That all sounds good Ted, thanks for writing this! Just to be clear,
*anyone* can write such a proposal and call for a vote, it doesn't have
to be a committer or PMC member, correct? I understand only those
people can cast binding votes (which would be ironic: the proposal
writer couldn't cast a binding vote for their own proposal!), but anyone
can make such a proposal, correct? If that is so, would it make sense
to announce it on the @user list as well, so that as many non-binding
votes could be cast as there is interest?
Thanks again Ted, assuming anyone can make such a proposal, I think this
is an excellent post and I for one very much appreciate it!
Frank
Ted Husted wrote:
> In the midst of a recent mosh-pit thread, someone asked "What can I
> do to change the direction of the Apache Struts project?"
>
> The answer would be to summarize the concerns raised in the thread and
> create a coherent proposal that lays out another course. (An obvious
> place to do that would be the Apache Struts wiki.) When ready, call
> for a vote on dev@ as to the proposal.
>
> That's how directions like Shale and WebWork/Action2 were set, and if
> anyone wanted to change these directions, simply follow the same
> protocol.
>
> Now, I should note that the binding votes on the Shale subproject and
> WebWork/Action2 proposals were unanimous, with no dissents or waffling
> by PMC members. To succeed, a proposal for an alternative direction
> would need to be compelling.
>
> Of course, if someone felt the Apache Struts PMC was being
> unreasonable, intransient, and insular, or has otherwise become a
> roadblock to innovation, then someone could appeal to the ASF Board of
> Directors. The PMC serves at the pleasure of the board, and the board
> can retire or reconstitute the PMC as it sees fit. For more about how
> the ASF works, see
>
> * http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> Though, right now, the method behind our madness goes something like this:
>
> * Both the ASF and Apache Struts are standard-bearers, and, like it or
> not, JSF is a designated Java standard. Given volunteers, we believe
> that it is appropriate that Apache Struts provide JSF developers with
> a MVC framework to fill in the gaps left by JSR 127, just like Struts
> Action fills in the gaps left by the servlet platform
>
> * The original Struts Action codebase suffers from design deficiencies
> that would take some effort to remedy. Since neither the ASF nor
> Apache Struts advocates "Not Invented Here Syndrome", we chose to
> adopt WebWork as Struts Action 2 -- much the same way that tens of
> thousands of teams adopted Struts Action over a homebrew framework.
>
> * Struts Action 1 has a significant installed base, and so long as
> there are volunteers to do the work, the codebase will remain open for
> improvement, in the Apache Way.
>
> It's no coincidence that these three bullets represent the three
> options every Java engineer faces today:
>
> * Do we try JSF?
>
> * Do we try a second-generation framework?
>
> * Do we stay the course?
>
> Since we are working engineers, with day jobs at which we write real
> applications, we are providing our own alternative to each option.
>
> Is that good marketing? I really don't know. I didn't come here for
> the marketing, I came here for the engineering. The marketing I'll
> leave to the likes of IBM, Microsoft, Sun, and Zend.
>
> -Ted.
>
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>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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