Re: [classlib] moving to 1.5 for real - discuss

[Mark Hindess <ma...@googlemail.com>]

On 8 June 2006 at 7:01, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> I'm +1 except I'd like to see us get to the point where we can
> 
> - produce a full snapshot of classlib + VM (using DRLVM or JCHEVM or
> whatever)

I agree.  I'd quite like to see a snapshot with a "free" vm and as much
of the classlib as possible preferably awt/swing and mx4j (anyone looked
at HARMONY-560? Comments?).

If it is acceptable, I'd very much like to create some snapshots in the
form of debian and rpm packages to see if we can encourage the masses
to give Harmony a try.  (At the moment I think these packages might
be pretty fat since we don't do much to make use of locally installed
packages for things like zlib, libpng, liblcms, etc.  But I still think
this (packaging) is worth doing and I'm prepared to work on trimming the
fat later.)

> - understand the timing of getting said VMs far enough that code will
> continue to run

Agreed.  I'd like to understand this.  Specifically, is it going to
take longer to get them working with 1.5 classes than it will to get
awt/swing integrated?

> While I'm stunningly grateful for the support IBM is providing with J9,
> and am looking forward to continuing support being very valuable and
> useful for us, we need to get the point of basic self-reliance wrt VM,
> and I'd at least like to understand what the 1.5 implications are, and
> the timelines for doing it.

Agreed.

Regards,
 Mark.



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Re: [classlib] moving to 1.5 for real - discuss

[Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>]

Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> I understand your concerns about static linking of the large number of
> the libraries... We thought about this too...
> 
> But we decided that for now it is the best way: we have to manage only
> few libraries inside the Harmony deploy directory... Which is changing
> its contents so often :)

I was holding my tongue on marks post - lets not waste too much time
discussing the dependencies.  Certainly for distributions, we'll bundle
them in where appropriate (like a tarball), or not (like an rpm where
the deps can be specified as part of the delivery system)

> 
> Anyway it can be easily changed at any time.
> 
> Another question about binary builds: Can we distribute third party
> libraries in the binary form from the Apache site?
> Geir? Tim?

Yes as part of our snapshots, distro...

geir

> 
> 2006/6/8, Mark Hindess <ma...@googlemail.com>:
>>
>> On 8 June 2006 at 8:34, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Mark Hindess wrote:
>> > > On 8 June 2006 at 7:01, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> > >> I'm +1 except I'd like to see us get to the point where we can
>> > >>
>> > >> - produce a full snapshot of classlib + VM (using DRLVM or JCHEVM or
>> > >> whatever)
>> > >
>> > > I agree.  I'd quite like to see a snapshot with a "free" vm and as
>> much
>> > > of the classlib as possible preferably awt/swing and mx4j (anyone
>> looked
>> > > at HARMONY-560? Comments?).
>> > >
>> > > If it is acceptable, I'd very much like to create some snapshots
>> in the
>> > > form of debian and rpm packages to see if we can encourage the masses
>> > > to give Harmony a try.
>> >
>> > YEAH!
>> >
>> > > (At the moment I think these packages might
>> > > be pretty fat since we don't do much to make use of locally installed
>> > > packages for things like zlib, libpng, liblcms, etc.  But I still
>> think
>> > > this (packaging) is worth doing and I'm prepared to work on
>> trimming the
>> > > fat later.)
>> >
>> > Cool - getting those started would be cool, and we just evolve them.
>> >
>> > How does it work "in real life"?  Are there linux packaging 'czars'
>> > that we might convince to start making these regularly available?
>>
>> When the time comes, I think we could find a Debian Developer sponsor
>> without too much trouble but they are going to tell us to "go away"
>> until we start behaving slightly more reasonably with respect to
>> dependencies.  That is, using what is already installed rather than
>> including them.
>>
>> Not sure what the process is like for RPM-based packages but I'm sure
>> they'll have the same issues about any "official" distribution packages.
>>
>> In the meantime, we could just host raw packages or (more work) create
>> apt/yum repositories.  I think we'll have to do it ourselves at least
>> until we get a little closer to world domination. ;-)
>>
>> (Aside: I'm not criticising the choice to use static or
>> download-and-build dependencies.  This is a sound pragmatic choice at
>> this stage.  It's just not a good way to fit in when we want wider
>> acceptance.)
>>
>> I have a few ideas for how we can start to do this better on Linux.
>> I've no idea about Windows but I suspect the bar for what it acceptable
>> is a little lower there.
>>
>> Regards,
>>  Mark.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
> 
> 

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Re: [classlib] moving to 1.5 for real - discuss

[Alexey Petrenko <al...@gmail.com>]

Mark,

I understand your concerns about static linking of the large number of
the libraries... We thought about this too...

But we decided that for now it is the best way: we have to manage only
few libraries inside the Harmony deploy directory... Which is changing
its contents so often :)

Anyway it can be easily changed at any time.

Another question about binary builds: Can we distribute third party
libraries in the binary form from the Apache site?
Geir? Tim?

2006/6/8, Mark Hindess <ma...@googlemail.com>:
>
> On 8 June 2006 at 8:34, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Hindess wrote:
> > > On 8 June 2006 at 7:01, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > >> I'm +1 except I'd like to see us get to the point where we can
> > >>
> > >> - produce a full snapshot of classlib + VM (using DRLVM or JCHEVM or
> > >> whatever)
> > >
> > > I agree.  I'd quite like to see a snapshot with a "free" vm and as much
> > > of the classlib as possible preferably awt/swing and mx4j (anyone looked
> > > at HARMONY-560? Comments?).
> > >
> > > If it is acceptable, I'd very much like to create some snapshots in the
> > > form of debian and rpm packages to see if we can encourage the masses
> > > to give Harmony a try.
> >
> > YEAH!
> >
> > > (At the moment I think these packages might
> > > be pretty fat since we don't do much to make use of locally installed
> > > packages for things like zlib, libpng, liblcms, etc.  But I still think
> > > this (packaging) is worth doing and I'm prepared to work on trimming the
> > > fat later.)
> >
> > Cool - getting those started would be cool, and we just evolve them.
> >
> > How does it work "in real life"?  Are there linux packaging 'czars'
> > that we might convince to start making these regularly available?
>
> When the time comes, I think we could find a Debian Developer sponsor
> without too much trouble but they are going to tell us to "go away"
> until we start behaving slightly more reasonably with respect to
> dependencies.  That is, using what is already installed rather than
> including them.
>
> Not sure what the process is like for RPM-based packages but I'm sure
> they'll have the same issues about any "official" distribution packages.
>
> In the meantime, we could just host raw packages or (more work) create
> apt/yum repositories.  I think we'll have to do it ourselves at least
> until we get a little closer to world domination. ;-)
>
> (Aside: I'm not criticising the choice to use static or
> download-and-build dependencies.  This is a sound pragmatic choice at
> this stage.  It's just not a good way to fit in when we want wider
> acceptance.)
>
> I have a few ideas for how we can start to do this better on Linux.
> I've no idea about Windows but I suspect the bar for what it acceptable
> is a little lower there.
>
> Regards,
>  Mark.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Alexey A. Petrenko
Intel Middleware Products Division

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Re: [classlib] moving to 1.5 for real - discuss

[Salikh Zakirov <Sa...@Intel.com>]

> Mark Hindess wrote:
>> If it is acceptable, I'd very much like to create some snapshots in the
>> form of debian and rpm packages to see if we can encourage the masses
>> to give Harmony a try. 

Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> How does it work "in real life"?  Are there linux packaging 'czars' that
> we might convince to start making these regularly available?

In Debian, it works in a very Apache-like way.

First, someone volunteers to make a .deb packaging and makes the package
(or packaging scripts) available to others to try.

Later, if the interest is high enough, one of the Debian maintainers
(you can think of them as of Harmony committers) uploads the package
to the official archive of "unstable" release. Or the very first
volunteer obtains Debian maintainer status through active participation
in Debian development.

Note, that at this point all Debian users can get a package from on-line archive
with only a little bit of configuration (modulo package dependencies).

Later on, if the package receives enough attention in the unstable release,
(bugs are filed and fixed, testing is performed), it graduates to the
"testing" release and then to "stable" release. This can take fairly long time (years).

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Re: [classlib] moving to 1.5 for real - discuss

[Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>]

Mark Hindess wrote:
> On 8 June 2006 at 7:01, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> I'm +1 except I'd like to see us get to the point where we can
>>
>> - produce a full snapshot of classlib + VM (using DRLVM or JCHEVM or
>> whatever)
> 
> I agree.  I'd quite like to see a snapshot with a "free" vm and as much
> of the classlib as possible preferably awt/swing and mx4j (anyone looked
> at HARMONY-560? Comments?).
> 
> If it is acceptable, I'd very much like to create some snapshots in the
> form of debian and rpm packages to see if we can encourage the masses
> to give Harmony a try. 

YEAH!

> (At the moment I think these packages might
> be pretty fat since we don't do much to make use of locally installed
> packages for things like zlib, libpng, liblcms, etc.  But I still think
> this (packaging) is worth doing and I'm prepared to work on trimming the
> fat later.)

Cool - getting those started would be cool, and we just evolve them.

How does it work "in real life"?  Are there linux packaging 'czars' that
we might convince to start making these regularly available?

geir


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