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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Peter Kovacs <Pe...@Apache.org> on 2018/12/29 14:17:13 UTC
[discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Hi all,
I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
always the same stuff.
So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
users list to it. With that we have a broader community looking at those
help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
barrier between developers/testers and user support gets reduced a bit.
If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we can check
for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to have FIXED
by workaround or something similar.
can you take some time and write your opinion? -would you like to help?
Thanks
All the Best
Peter
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Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 12/29/18 3:42 PM, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> On 12/29/2018 12:49 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>>
>>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 3:17 PM
>>> To: dev; users
>>> Subject: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
>>> leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
>>> always the same stuff.
>>>
>>> So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
>>> users list to it. With that we have a broader community
>>> looking at those
>>> help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
>>> barrier between developers/testers and user support gets
>>> reduced a bit.
>>>
>>> If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we
>>> can check
>>> for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to
>>> have FIXED
>>> by workaround or something similar.
>>>
>>>
>>> can you take some time and write your opinion?
>>
>> my opinion:
>> Bugzilla is not a support ticket system. If we were to start inviting users (through an appropriate category in Bugzilla) to submit support requests here, we would be creating additional work for ourselves.
>>
>> I don't think there will be more satisfaction through more tolerance in the use of Bugzilla. See the following example:
>> For years, we have tolerated misbehavior by users on the German users mailing list (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), and what we achieve is not happy users, but confusion, inefficiency, and frustration among volunteers and users.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I understand your concern, but I don't think we can solve the problems of misuse of Bugzilla in that way.
>>
>>
>> greetings,
>> Jörg
>>
> Peter;
>
> As Marcus stated earlier NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE is a valid response to an
> issue that does not have it's roots in AOO and should be used as such.
> Bugzilla is a bug tracking system and not an support help desk.
>
> Keith
>
>
I agree with Marcus and Keith on this. Maybe some instructions to the
"closer" of the issue would be to direct the reporter to the forums as
Dave suggests.
--
------------------------------------------
MzK
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Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
> On Dec 29, 2018, at 3:42 PM, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/29/2018 12:49 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>>
>>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 3:17 PM
>>> To: dev; users
>>> Subject: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
>>> leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
>>> always the same stuff.
>>>
>>> So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
>>> users list to it. With that we have a broader community
>>> looking at those
>>> help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
>>> barrier between developers/testers and user support gets
>>> reduced a bit.
>>>
>>> If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we
>>> can check
>>> for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to
>>> have FIXED
>>> by workaround or something similar.
>>>
>>>
>>> can you take some time and write your opinion?
>>
>> my opinion:
>> Bugzilla is not a support ticket system. If we were to start inviting users (through an appropriate category in Bugzilla) to submit support requests here, we would be creating additional work for ourselves.
>>
>> I don't think there will be more satisfaction through more tolerance in the use of Bugzilla. See the following example:
>> For years, we have tolerated misbehavior by users on the German users mailing list (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), and what we achieve is not happy users, but confusion, inefficiency, and frustration among volunteers and users.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I understand your concern, but I don't think we can solve the problems of misuse of Bugzilla in that way.
>>
>>
>> greetings,
>> Jörg
>>
> Peter;
>
> As Marcus stated earlier NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE is a valid response to an
> issue that does not have it's roots in AOO and should be used as such.
> Bugzilla is a bug tracking system and not an support help desk.
https://forum.openoffice.org/ is a good place for support.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Keith
>
>
Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
On 12/29/2018 12:49 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>
>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 3:17 PM
>> To: dev; users
>> Subject: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
>> leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
>> always the same stuff.
>>
>> So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
>> users list to it. With that we have a broader community
>> looking at those
>> help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
>> barrier between developers/testers and user support gets
>> reduced a bit.
>>
>> If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we
>> can check
>> for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to
>> have FIXED
>> by workaround or something similar.
>>
>>
>> can you take some time and write your opinion?
>
> my opinion:
> Bugzilla is not a support ticket system. If we were to start inviting users (through an appropriate category in Bugzilla) to submit support requests here, we would be creating additional work for ourselves.
>
> I don't think there will be more satisfaction through more tolerance in the use of Bugzilla. See the following example:
> For years, we have tolerated misbehavior by users on the German users mailing list (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), and what we achieve is not happy users, but confusion, inefficiency, and frustration among volunteers and users.
>
>
> Sorry, I understand your concern, but I don't think we can solve the problems of misuse of Bugzilla in that way.
>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
Peter;
As Marcus stated earlier NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE is a valid response to an
issue that does not have it's roots in AOO and should be used as such.
Bugzilla is a bug tracking system and not an support help desk.
Keith
RE: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 3:17 PM
> To: dev; users
> Subject: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
> leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
> always the same stuff.
>
> So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
> users list to it. With that we have a broader community
> looking at those
> help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
> barrier between developers/testers and user support gets
> reduced a bit.
>
> If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we
> can check
> for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to
> have FIXED
> by workaround or something similar.
>
>
> can you take some time and write your opinion?
my opinion:
Bugzilla is not a support ticket system. If we were to start inviting users (through an appropriate category in Bugzilla) to submit support requests here, we would be creating additional work for ourselves.
I don't think there will be more satisfaction through more tolerance in the use of Bugzilla. See the following example:
For years, we have tolerated misbehavior by users on the German users mailing list (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), and what we achieve is not happy users, but confusion, inefficiency, and frustration among volunteers and users.
Sorry, I understand your concern, but I don't think we can solve the problems of misuse of Bugzilla in that way.
greetings,
Jörg
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RE: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 12:45 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
>
> Thanks all for your feedback. I am not so sure the Idea
> carries. However
> I would go in depth because maybe there is something we can
> think about
> in the long run.
>
> Markus wrote:
>
> >
> > I cannot belief that all (or the most) users are really angry /
> > annoyed / disappointed. Can you proof that?
>
> In a subset of cases we closed we had arguments. We also have improved
> the closing comment as a reaction, which controls the
> outbreak much better.
>
> One example where we had a cry out has been here:
>
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127855
imho:
in this thread you are giving the user a wrong answer.
The user asks for the instructions on this dialog (and the corresponding dialog for sending the report):
https://docplayer.org/docs-images/25/5692897/images/80-0.png
However, you are answering about Bugzilla.
Your answer is wrong because you misunderstood the user. That's the problem in the spezific case.
Or in other words:
the problem is not Bugzilla, but the message dialog of OpenOffice and the question is:
Does this dialog still work properly at all? I don't know.
> I do also mention this scottish sceptic guy, who ranted exactly on one
> of these cases. While I do not want to look to closely on his method I
> believe he or in his surrounding someone has been affected by such a
> case and he did berserk in an issue and after that on his blog.
Do you mean a special blog post? If yes, do you have the link?
> The support request is there. It costs effort to move people into the
> right channel i.e. Forums. And it is effort to move an issue
> that needed
> to be first clarified and ended up on Forums to move it to the Channel
> of Bugzilla.
>
> I think we have to discuss ways to reduce this border.
I'm with you on this.
My experience, however, with regard to such discussions in the German community is unfortunately negative.
> I think we need to lower this to improve the recruitment rate. We are
> doing pretty bad on this topic in general. I do think that if
> more users
> are on Bugzilla, maybe they start looking into other stuff. Maybe the
> Idea is stupid, and not right. But we need to open ways that
> people can
> naturally extend their work that they are doing. Maybe my
> impression is
> also not right, and we need to take care different steps to
> activate people.
>
> For QA on 4.1.6 we had 7 Release Testers. That is thin. Maybe
> if people
> handle support request they can be more easily activated to handle new
> bugs, and then activated for release testing.
OK, that's a different perspective. I can't say anything about that at the moment.
greetings,
Jörg
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Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Peter Kovacs <Pe...@Apache.org>.
Thanks all for your feedback. I am not so sure the Idea carries. However
I would go in depth because maybe there is something we can think about
in the long run.
Markus wrote:
>
> I cannot belief that all (or the most) users are really angry /
> annoyed / disappointed. Can you proof that?
In a subset of cases we closed we had arguments. We also have improved
the closing comment as a reaction, which controls the outbreak much better.
One example where we had a cry out has been here:
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127855
I do also mention this scottish sceptic guy, who ranted exactly on one
of these cases. While I do not want to look to closely on his method I
believe he or in his surrounding someone has been affected by such a
case and he did berserk in an issue and after that on his blog.
But maybe these cases are not as often as the normal cases.
> The resolution was created to make it visible that the reported issue
> has its source not in OpenOffice. It has nothing to do with user
> support. Maybe it's often used for this but this was/is not intended.
True. I think all the cases where a reset of the Profile does resolve
the Issue may be wrong to close them as NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE since the Issue
is a corrupted profile. And we do not know the root cause for the
corruption.
And we should consider in finding out if we can not harden openoffice
against this corruption. Most often we do not know if a Issue report has
been fixed with profile reset.
Jörg wrote:
> Bugzilla is not a support ticket system. If we were to start inviting users (through an appropriate category in Bugzilla) to submit support requests here, we would be creating additional work for ourselves.
The support request is there. It costs effort to move people into the
right channel i.e. Forums. And it is effort to move an issue that needed
to be first clarified and ended up on Forums to move it to the Channel
of Bugzilla.
I think we have to discuss ways to reduce this border.
I think we need to lower this to improve the recruitment rate. We are
doing pretty bad on this topic in general. I do think that if more users
are on Bugzilla, maybe they start looking into other stuff. Maybe the
Idea is stupid, and not right. But we need to open ways that people can
naturally extend their work that they are doing. Maybe my impression is
also not right, and we need to take care different steps to activate people.
For QA on 4.1.6 we had 7 Release Testers. That is thin. Maybe if people
handle support request they can be more easily activated to handle new
bugs, and then activated for release testing.
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Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 29.12.18 um 15:17 schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
> leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
> always the same stuff.
>
> So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
> users list to it. With that we have a broader community looking at those
> help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
> barrier between developers/testers and user support gets reduced a bit.
>
> If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we can check
> for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to have FIXED
> by workaround or something similar.
I cannot belief that all (or the most) users are really angry / annoyed
/ disappointed. Can you proof that?
The resolution was created to make it visible that the reported issue
has its source not in OpenOffice. It has nothing to do with user
support. Maybe it's often used for this but this was/is not intended.
Sorry but I don't like the idea to delete a resolution because of
unsatisfied users.
We can create a new product with a default component and put the users@
mailing list as assignee. But IMHO this wouldn't change the root problem:
An issue tracker is the wrong channel for users when they have howto
questions or support requests. Here we need to think how this can be
improved.
My 2 ct.
Marcus
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Re: [discussion] get rid of NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 29.12.18 um 15:17 schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> I would like to get rid of the Resolution "NOT_AN_OOO_ISSUE". This
> leaves people angry and it is annoying to Copy paste or just rewrite
> always the same stuff.
>
> So I wonder if we could add a component user support, and allocate the
> users list to it. With that we have a broader community looking at those
> help requests, and handle them like every other Issue. Also maybe the
> barrier between developers/testers and user support gets reduced a bit.
>
> If it is a bug someone can simply change the component and we can check
> for reproducibility. Instead of NOT_AN_ISSUE I would like to have FIXED
> by workaround or something similar.
I cannot belief that all (or the most) users are really angry / annoyed
/ disappointed. Can you proof that?
The resolution was created to make it visible that the reported issue
has its source not in OpenOffice. It has nothing to do with user
support. Maybe it's often used for this but this was/is not intended.
Sorry but I don't like the idea to delete a resolution because of
unsatisfied users.
We can create a new product with a default component and put the users@
mailing list as assignee. But IMHO this wouldn't change the root problem:
An issue tracker is the wrong channel for users when they have howto
questions or support requests. Here we need to think how this can be
improved.
My 2 ct.
Marcus
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