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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Stefan Reich <st...@googlemail.com> on 2015/07/04 18:53:08 UTC
I still don't see your priorities
You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
Stefan
RE: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Stefan,
In the couple of months since you first suggested that JavaX might become an Apache Project, there have been many discussions about new projects entering the incubator. There are also many completed and accepted proposals for incubating projects. Have you observed any of that?
Have you looked at the proposal template and examples of successful proposals, along with discussions here, so that you know what it would take for JavaX to be approved as an incubator project? Have you drafted such a proposal and in the process of its development, enlisted a champion and some mentors to help in proposal refinement and in bootstrapping an incubating project?
My impression is that you thought it was too much work and do not see the point. You also raised conditions that you were told don't work here and would need to be revised. OK, you had very early indication that the Apache incubation process might not be for you. Failing early sounds like a good result in that case.
That's fine, you don't have to go through what it takes to get on the Apache Project learning curve.
But all of the projects here have done that work in one manner or another, and the conditions are satisfied for those projects, including any incubation they had to work through. You are free to march in your own parade of course. For the Apache parade, the music is already chosen.
Whatever you do, have fun!
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Reich [mailto:stefan.reich.maker.of.eye@googlemail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 09:53
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: I still don't see your priorities
You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
Stefan
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Jochen Theodorou <bl...@gmx.org>.
Hi again,
sorry, I was not clear enough when I mentioned time. I guess it did let
you think in the wrong direction. 3 years is time, yes, but what counts
is the work done and the diversity. What about contributors/committer?
You should come with a couple of people (4+) that can work actively on
the project. Also, just because you are an apache project does not mean
you will automatically get more people. The name can help, but it is
still your project, that has to do the actual work. And with work I mean
not only development, but also community build. Collaboration comes with
a healthy community.
And if you understand all that perfectly fine, then what keeps you from
gathering a few people and make a proposal?
Am 04.07.2015 21:32, schrieb Stefan Reich:
> Basic work for TinyBrain has been done. It's been at least 3 years.
> Am 04.07.2015 19:26 schrieb "Jochen Theodorou" <bl...@gmx.org>:
>
>> Am 04.07.2015 18:53, schrieb Stefan Reich:
>>
>>> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>>>
>>> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>>>
>>
>> Stefan, you sill don't understand that the ASF is basically a bunch of
>> people supporting open source in their free time. All the infrastructure is
>> almost completely done by volunteers. If someone gets money for working on
>> an apache project, it is usually not the ASF doing the payments.
>> And given that time is of the essence I find it perfectly fine to expect
>> some basic work has been done already. 9 of 10 new opensource projects fail
>> in the earlest stages.
>>
>> bye blackdrag
>>
>> --
>> Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
>> blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>
>>
>
--
Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Stefan Reich <st...@googlemail.com>.
Basic work for TinyBrain has been done. It's been at least 3 years.
Am 04.07.2015 19:26 schrieb "Jochen Theodorou" <bl...@gmx.org>:
> Am 04.07.2015 18:53, schrieb Stefan Reich:
>
>> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>>
>> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>>
>
> Stefan, you sill don't understand that the ASF is basically a bunch of
> people supporting open source in their free time. All the infrastructure is
> almost completely done by volunteers. If someone gets money for working on
> an apache project, it is usually not the ASF doing the payments.
> And given that time is of the essence I find it perfectly fine to expect
> some basic work has been done already. 9 of 10 new opensource projects fail
> in the earlest stages.
>
> bye blackdrag
>
> --
> Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
> blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
Unfortunately you come across to me in the worst possible manner, not happy
with the status quo and only complaining.
ASF works in a manner of;
a. Do-acracy. Don't expect anyone else but you to make the changes you want
to see.
b. Small reversible steps. Suggesting (and/or executing) very big changes
are likely to be rejected due to risks.
c. Previous merit weighs in heavily in new proposals. If I say X, it will
be skipped over a lot than if JimJag says X, as people will assume that he
has put more thought into it, since previous changes coming from him has
turned out very well. That doesn't mean that relative newcomers have no
say, or impact. There are plenty of recent ASFers, that has made huge
impact on both ASF and people. That normally shows up in Board
nominations...
So instead of writing mails about what other people should do, how about
acting on the above advice, Propose, Gather support, Execute.
Easy? Perhaps not, that depends on what your goals are...
Cheers
Niclas
On Jul 4, 2015 21:34, "Stefan Reich" <
stefan.reich.maker.of.eye@googlemail.com> wrote:
> BTW I'm not even talking about payments.
>
> I talk about *collaborating*.
>
> And I do understand perfectly fine.
>
> Stefan
> Am 04.07.2015 19:26 schrieb "Jochen Theodorou" <bl...@gmx.org>:
>
> > Am 04.07.2015 18:53, schrieb Stefan Reich:
> >
> >> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
> >>
> >> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting
> that?
> >>
> >
> > Stefan, you sill don't understand that the ASF is basically a bunch of
> > people supporting open source in their free time. All the infrastructure
> is
> > almost completely done by volunteers. If someone gets money for working
> on
> > an apache project, it is usually not the ASF doing the payments.
> > And given that time is of the essence I find it perfectly fine to expect
> > some basic work has been done already. 9 of 10 new opensource projects
> fail
> > in the earlest stages.
> >
> > bye blackdrag
> >
> > --
> > Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
> > blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Stefan Reich <st...@googlemail.com>.
BTW I'm not even talking about payments.
I talk about *collaborating*.
And I do understand perfectly fine.
Stefan
Am 04.07.2015 19:26 schrieb "Jochen Theodorou" <bl...@gmx.org>:
> Am 04.07.2015 18:53, schrieb Stefan Reich:
>
>> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>>
>> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>>
>
> Stefan, you sill don't understand that the ASF is basically a bunch of
> people supporting open source in their free time. All the infrastructure is
> almost completely done by volunteers. If someone gets money for working on
> an apache project, it is usually not the ASF doing the payments.
> And given that time is of the essence I find it perfectly fine to expect
> some basic work has been done already. 9 of 10 new opensource projects fail
> in the earlest stages.
>
> bye blackdrag
>
> --
> Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
> blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Jochen Theodorou <bl...@gmx.org>.
Am 04.07.2015 18:53, schrieb Stefan Reich:
> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>
> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
Stefan, you sill don't understand that the ASF is basically a bunch of
people supporting open source in their free time. All the infrastructure
is almost completely done by volunteers. If someone gets money for
working on an apache project, it is usually not the ASF doing the payments.
And given that time is of the essence I find it perfectly fine to expect
some basic work has been done already. 9 of 10 new opensource projects
fail in the earlest stages.
bye blackdrag
--
Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by toki <to...@gmail.com>.
On 07/04/2015 04:53 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
I didn't know that software was sentient.
If you meant "software that somebody wants to exist", I can point you to
thousands of projects that got no further than a name, a proposal, and
space on either code.google.com or SourceForge.
If you'd like Apache to support whatever project you think it should
support, then you need to propose that the project to the Apache
Incubator. That means drawing up a formal proposal, explaining what the
project is about, how/why Apache is a good fit for the project, what it
brings to Apache, and where Apache will be beneficial to it.
Some projects won't ever be a good fit with the Apache Way, and hence
won't make it into the incubator.
Other projects might make an extremely good fit with the Apache Way,
but, due to the unlikelihood of them graduating from the incubator, are
not accepted.
Still other projects are a good fit with the Apache Way, and seemingly
graduate from incubation as soon as they are accepted into the incubator.
I will grant that there are exceptions to those. Projects that were
accepted, with the advance knowledge that they would go straight to the
attic, never passing graduation. Projects that were accepted, that were
not a good fit, and had unfavorable odds of ever fitting in with The
Apache way. But these are exceptions --- rare instances of risk-taking,
in the hopes that the outcome would be the unexpected, rather than the
expected. In the majority of these exceptions, there is something in the
proposal that implied that there was a better than even chance of the
dooming factors being overcome.
One factor that is huge, but almost completely ignored by outsiders, is
the impression that the proposer makes on the community. This is not
about faking, or authentically expressing The Apache Way, but rather,
about delivering what is proposed.
jonathon
Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Alan R Williams <al...@manchester.ac.uk>.
On 04-Jul-15 17:53, Stefan Reich wrote:
> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>
> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
Outside of science fiction, software itself does not WANT TO EXIST.
There must be people who want it to exist and then start to develop it.
Apache is "just" a collection of communities working on software they
want to develop.
How have you tried to get people to develop the software?
> Stefan
Alan
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Gmail marks Stefan Reich's messages as spam as they don't pass all sender
domain checks. That makes following this thread a bit difficult.
2015-07-06 10:52 GMT-04:00 Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>:
> I presume, since your message has received responses, that it's clear to
> *someone* what you're talking about. To the rest of us, this feels like a
> message that was either posted the wrong place, or simply lacks any context
> whatsoever.
>
> Can you either elaborate on what this rant is about, or take it to the
> correct forum?
>
> --Rich
>
> On 07/04/2015 12:53 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
>
>> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>>
>> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>
>
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>
>
Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 07/06/2015 11:08 AM, Alan R Williams wrote:
> I think it is about Stefan's wish for Apache to become the home for
> JavaX http://javax.tinybrain.de/
>
> See
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201505.mbox/%3CCAC2-jLHrU67-6hSOXMoidADe%2BeE_KSRfjzY07o1wtiG%2BL0dfwQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> for the original discussion.
Even having read that discussion, this email from Stefan is perplexing.
Oh, well.
>
> Alan
>
> On 06/07/2015 15:52, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> I presume, since your message has received responses, that it's clear to
>> *someone* what you're talking about. To the rest of us, this feels like
>> a message that was either posted the wrong place, or simply lacks any
>> context whatsoever.
>>
>> Can you either elaborate on what this rant is about, or take it to the
>> correct forum?
>>
>> --Rich
>>
>> On 07/04/2015 12:53 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
>>> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>>>
>>> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting
>>> that?
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Alan R Williams <al...@manchester.ac.uk>.
I think it is about Stefan's wish for Apache to become the home for
JavaX http://javax.tinybrain.de/
See
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201505.mbox/%3CCAC2-jLHrU67-6hSOXMoidADe%2BeE_KSRfjzY07o1wtiG%2BL0dfwQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E
for the original discussion.
Alan
On 06/07/2015 15:52, Rich Bowen wrote:
> I presume, since your message has received responses, that it's clear to
> *someone* what you're talking about. To the rest of us, this feels like
> a message that was either posted the wrong place, or simply lacks any
> context whatsoever.
>
> Can you either elaborate on what this rant is about, or take it to the
> correct forum?
>
> --Rich
>
> On 07/04/2015 12:53 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
>> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>>
>> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>
>
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
I presume, since your message has received responses, that it's clear to
*someone* what you're talking about. To the rest of us, this feels like
a message that was either posted the wrong place, or simply lacks any
context whatsoever.
Can you either elaborate on what this rant is about, or take it to the
correct forum?
--Rich
On 07/04/2015 12:53 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>
> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>
> Stefan
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
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Re: I still don't see your priorities
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 4 July 2015 at 18:53, Stefan Reich <
stefan.reich.maker.of.eye@googlemail.com> wrote:
> You wait for something to exist, and THEN you support it?
>
> How about taking something good that WANTS TO EXIST, and supporting that?
>
Well it is hard to imagine something that wants to exist. Normally it is
people who have something
they want to exist, and this is something we support.
How do you see it possible that we take "something" without people, and
make it grow ? sounds
quite impossible to me.
But if there are people around this "something" willing to make it grow,
that is what we call a
community. With a community "something" can come to apache.
Please understand there is a fundamental difference between apache and e.g.
github.
- In apache, you need a community (people who believe in the project), but
can come without code at all
- in Github, you come with code, and see if others get interested in using
it.
It is 2 different ways of starting great software with different benefits
and disadvantages,
rgds
jan i.
>
> Stefan
>