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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org> on 2003/08/06 18:18:45 UTC
Re: [geronimo] Core Service Framework (Was: RE: Names & Projects)
Quoting James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
> On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 04:34 pm, J Aaron Farr wrote:
>
> > Quoting James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>:
> >
> >> To be certified Geronimo needs to fully support JMX. So the current
> >> plan is to follow the Tomcat 5 & JBoss ideas to use MBeans to
> register
> >> & wire the services together. Whatever component model or libraries
> a
> >> particular service wishes to use is up to it I suppose, it shouldn't
> >> really affect the core container.
> >>
> >
> > So geronimo will be built on top of Tomcat 5?
>
> Not quite - it'll use JMX & JNDI to bind services into the core
> container (J2EE certified remember). Tomcat 4/5 will be one of those
> services that plugs into Geronimo along with things like Jetty, tyrex,
> openjms etc.
so the core container will be code developed from scratch within geronimo? or
will it just an mbean server from mx4j?
Not to rant too much on the subject, but Avalon's containers (ie- Phoenix,
Merlin and Fortress) are designed to do just this. JMX support exists and
there's been some work done on proper JNDI support. You can already run Tomcat,
Jetty, OpenJMS and a host of other services within Avalon as it stands now.
>
> > It seems a shame that we have an "Apache Server Framework" that will
> > not be used
> > in the "Apache J2EE" implementation, at least at the container level.
>
> Avalon could be used inside a service. Or indeed an Avalon container
> could be deployed inside Geronimo as a service too.
>
> Though I'm not yet sure of the value of Avalon inside the core EJB /
> JMX container (which is the first thing to do)- which is already itself
>
> a specialized kind of container. If you want Avalon to be used, I'd
> focus on the services that we'll use inside Geronimo. e.g. Tomcat -
> try get them to use Avalon & see if it makes sense to them. Avalon's
> not gonna suit everyone and every use case.
>
> Remember there are a lot of different 'services frameworks' such as
> JMX, Avalon, PicoContainer, Java Beans etc. The only one we absolutely
> must support is JMX - so we'll focus on that first. However I see no
> reason why Geronimo cannot have other kinds of containers dropped in as
>
> services (Avalon, PicoContainer or whatever). From Geronmio's
> perspective its just a bunch of MBeans.
>
> James
> -------
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
>
>
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jaaron <http://jadetower.org>
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Re: [geronimo] Core Service Framework (Was: RE: Names & Projects)
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
Maybe a quicker answer to this thread is - the core Geronimo container
is an EJB / MDB container which supports pluggable services via JMX.
Thats quite different to the scope of Avalon.
(Can you tell I've given up caffeine recently - my brains still a bit
fuzzy today :)
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 05:39 pm, James Strachan wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 05:18 pm, J Aaron Farr wrote:
>
>> Quoting James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 04:34 pm, J Aaron Farr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quoting James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>>>>
>>>>> To be certified Geronimo needs to fully support JMX. So the current
>>>>> plan is to follow the Tomcat 5 & JBoss ideas to use MBeans to
>>> register
>>>>> & wire the services together. Whatever component model or libraries
>>> a
>>>>> particular service wishes to use is up to it I suppose, it
>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>> really affect the core container.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So geronimo will be built on top of Tomcat 5?
>>>
>>> Not quite - it'll use JMX & JNDI to bind services into the core
>>> container (J2EE certified remember). Tomcat 4/5 will be one of those
>>> services that plugs into Geronimo along with things like Jetty,
>>> tyrex,
>>> openjms etc.
>>
>>
>> so the core container will be code developed from scratch within
>> geronimo? or
>> will it just an mbean server from mx4j?
>
> The core container has already been developed - we should be able to
> put it somewhere (CVS / web) soon I hope. Then hopefully things will
> be a bit more clear.
>
> A J2EE container is a little different from an Avalon container.
> Avalon is a generic service/component framework. The core Geronimo
> container is an optimised J2EE container developed from a great deal
> of experience and use of JBoss, OpenEJB & mx4j. Its particularly
> geared towards EJB & MDBs.
>
> Its not unlike saying, why have 2 web application frameworks (ducks
> the usual JSP v Velocity v JSF v Tapestry kinds of debates). Whilst in
> the same general ballpark they have quite different motivations & use
> cases which leads to different code bases if you want to do them well.
> Like most things the devils in the details. However once the codes put
> somewhere (soon I hope) you'll be able to take a look and judge for
> yourself.
>
> Note like I said, there's no reason why you couldn't deploy an Avalon
> container inside Geronimo. So maybe a better way to look at this is
> you could embed Avalon into Geronimo if you wish - but for the
> foreseeable future the core container in Geronimo won't be based on
> Avalon itself.
>
> Remember most of the work is in the services that drop into Geronimo -
> so if you're trying to spread the Avalon word - I'd focus on that if I
> were you.
>
>
>> Not to rant too much on the subject, but Avalon's containers (ie-
>> Phoenix,
>> Merlin and Fortress) are designed to do just this. JMX support
>> exists and
>> there's been some work done on proper JNDI support. You can already
>> run Tomcat,
>> Jetty, OpenJMS and a host of other services within Avalon as it
>> stands now.
>
> I'm aware of that. Like I said - the devils in the details.
James
-------
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Re: [geronimo] Core Service Framework (Was: RE: Names & Projects)
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 05:55 pm, Tim Urberg wrote:
>> A J2EE container is a little different from an Avalon container.
>> Avalon
>> is a generic service/component framework. The core Geronimo container
>> is an optimised J2EE container developed from a great deal of
>> experience and use of JBoss, OpenEJB & mx4j. Its particularly geared
>> towards EJB & MDBs.
>
> I have a question about this. What parts of JBoss, OpenEJB, and MX4J
> did you
> use? I curious about this because I'm an OpenEJB committer.
Speaking on behalf of all the contributors to the initial code base for
the container - pretty much all of tthem. (Note we're reusing mx4j
as-is right now in the code).
Today the codebase has a bit of a JBoss-experience-bias I guess; so
we're eager to get as much feedback from OpenEJB & Jonas folks on the
current code.
James
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Re: [geronimo] Core Service Framework (Was: RE: Names & Projects)
Posted by Tim Urberg <ti...@yahoo.com>.
> A J2EE container is a little different from an Avalon container. Avalon
> is a generic service/component framework. The core Geronimo container
> is an optimised J2EE container developed from a great deal of
> experience and use of JBoss, OpenEJB & mx4j. Its particularly geared
> towards EJB & MDBs.
I have a question about this. What parts of JBoss, OpenEJB, and MX4J did you
use? I curious about this because I'm an OpenEJB committer.
Thanks,
Tim
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Re: [geronimo] Core Service Framework (Was: RE: Names & Projects)
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 05:18 pm, J Aaron Farr wrote:
> Quoting James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 04:34 pm, J Aaron Farr wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>>>
>>>> To be certified Geronimo needs to fully support JMX. So the current
>>>> plan is to follow the Tomcat 5 & JBoss ideas to use MBeans to
>> register
>>>> & wire the services together. Whatever component model or libraries
>> a
>>>> particular service wishes to use is up to it I suppose, it shouldn't
>>>> really affect the core container.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So geronimo will be built on top of Tomcat 5?
>>
>> Not quite - it'll use JMX & JNDI to bind services into the core
>> container (J2EE certified remember). Tomcat 4/5 will be one of those
>> services that plugs into Geronimo along with things like Jetty, tyrex,
>> openjms etc.
>
>
> so the core container will be code developed from scratch within
> geronimo? or
> will it just an mbean server from mx4j?
The core container has already been developed - we should be able to
put it somewhere (CVS / web) soon I hope. Then hopefully things will be
a bit more clear.
A J2EE container is a little different from an Avalon container. Avalon
is a generic service/component framework. The core Geronimo container
is an optimised J2EE container developed from a great deal of
experience and use of JBoss, OpenEJB & mx4j. Its particularly geared
towards EJB & MDBs.
Its not unlike saying, why have 2 web application frameworks (ducks the
usual JSP v Velocity v JSF v Tapestry kinds of debates). Whilst in the
same general ballpark they have quite different motivations & use cases
which leads to different code bases if you want to do them well. Like
most things the devils in the details. However once the codes put
somewhere (soon I hope) you'll be able to take a look and judge for
yourself.
Note like I said, there's no reason why you couldn't deploy an Avalon
container inside Geronimo. So maybe a better way to look at this is you
could embed Avalon into Geronimo if you wish - but for the foreseeable
future the core container in Geronimo won't be based on Avalon itself.
Remember most of the work is in the services that drop into Geronimo -
so if you're trying to spread the Avalon word - I'd focus on that if I
were you.
> Not to rant too much on the subject, but Avalon's containers (ie-
> Phoenix,
> Merlin and Fortress) are designed to do just this. JMX support exists
> and
> there's been some work done on proper JNDI support. You can already
> run Tomcat,
> Jetty, OpenJMS and a host of other services within Avalon as it stands
> now.
I'm aware of that. Like I said - the devils in the details.
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
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