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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Andrew Hill <an...@gridnode.com> on 2003/01/10 05:32:46 UTC
[FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
Why son, back in my day I remember havin ta trudge twenty miles through the
snow just to get my hands on one of them struts 1.02 source files cos we
didnt have no documentation back then!
Nope. None of that fancy (e)book learning for us son! Werent no struts
classes we cud take either - an I means that in both senses as we didnt have
class files like as ye hev now - we had to execute the code ourselves. None
of them jvm things was invented yet.
A'cos, once ye got yerself a source file, yer'd hev ta thaw it out afore ye
cud read it. We didnt hev no fancy ant tasks for that back then. Nosiree -
yed hev to use real fire and heat it real careful like, then ye cud load it
into yer steam powered beta version of vi and work out just what that
critter was up to.
A'cos there werent no sruts list back then neither. Why - if we had us a
question bout some source file - well we'd just hev ta trudge that twenty
miles so as to send a telegram to Craig, and then we'd have to wait us a
whole week and trudge us another twenty miles to get the reply.
Mind you son - some things was better back then too. We din't hev no
internet so's we din't need ta worry ourselves about writin' any of them
fancy newfangled jayespees or html forms, and since we didnt hav ta do them,
why them thar action classes seemed a lot easier to do too... Nows that I
come to think of it, we spent pretty darn well most of our development time
out in the snow - if we weren't cartin round frozen source code files then
we was cuttin wood to thaw them out or to burn in the boiler so as we cud
use vi to read em - did I mention as how it was steam powered back then?...
...hang on. This was like a few months ago and I live in the tropics. Hmm.
Nevermind.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Reumann [mailto:maillist@reumann.net]
Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 14:58
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Struts Productivity Survey
The problem with this survey is that the results you would get would not
be accurate for assessing the time it would take new developers to catch
on to using Struts at the present time. There is now a lot more
documentation and examples out there to learn from than there was just
six months ago. My biggest frustration in the beginning was the lack of
examples and cohesive documentation of how all the different pieces fit
together. Most of the learning took place by digging into the examples
that come with struts and those on Ted's site and then asking questions.
Now, however, there are several great books out there( Chucks, Ted's,
etc.) and had I had them when I first started life would have been much
easier. I think it's really going be difficult to get an accurate feel
for how long it takes people to get 'up to speed' with struts since I
think it's much easier now for new developers to learn struts simply due
to the books and better documentation available.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:20:00 -0600 <Gr...@alltel.com> wrote:
> I am conducting an informal survey to determine how difficult it is
> for new developers with differing skills becomve productive with
> Struts. This really only applies to those using 1.1x. Anyone who is
> willing, please answer the following questions:
>
> 1. How long did it take you to get the Struts Framework up and
> running for the first time? 2. How long did it take you to get your
> first business component going in the Struts Framework (this involves
> Action class, page, business objects, etc. from start to completion.)
> 3. Would you describe your Software Development experience as a)
> novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 4. Would you describe your Java
> competencies as a) novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 5. Would you
> describe your J2EE/servlet/JSP competencies as a) novice, b) advanced,
> or c) expert? 6. What was the hardest part about learning Struts for
> you?
>
> Thanks. If the response is interesting I'll compile it and post it
> back to the list. Greg
--
Rick
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RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
Posted by James Turner <tu...@blackbear.com>.
Applying the ISO 7-Layer model:
Physical Layer: Smoke (signal) traveling through air (medium)
Link Layer: Blanket to induce packet boundaries
Network Layer: Indian Protocol (IP)
Transport Layer: Terminate Custer Protocol (TCP)
(Skipping Session and Presentation, which no one ever uses :-)
Application Layer: Flaming-Arrow Transfer Protocol (FTP)
Please excuse any political incorrectness in the above as an attempt at
feeble humor.
James
(Who had his 270GB raid array go south this week, taking a year's worth
of financial records with it. It's been one of THOSE weeks.)
And for the record, we would have killed our children for telegrams or
smoke signals. We had to bury monoliths near tribes of primates in the
hopes that they would induce evolutionary processes that would lead
someday to someone who could answer our Struts questions...
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:19 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List; andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com
> Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
>
>
>
> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Andrew Hill wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:48:42 +0800
> > From: Andrew Hill <an...@gridnode.com>
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List
<st...@jakarta.apache.org>,
> > andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
> >
> > True, but at the interface layer they were still telegrams, it was
just
> that
> > we used smoke signals in the implementation layer sometimes...
> >
>
> We actually had to fight over whether the messages would be smoke
signals
> (interfaces) or paper airplanes (base classes). The latter won :-).
>
> Craig
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Andrew Hill wrote:
> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:48:42 +0800
> From: Andrew Hill <an...@gridnode.com>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>,
> andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
>
> True, but at the interface layer they were still telegrams, it was just that
> we used smoke signals in the implementation layer sometimes...
>
We actually had to fight over whether the messages would be smoke signals
(interfaces) or paper airplanes (base classes). The latter won :-).
Craig
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Mitchell [mailto:jmitchell@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 12:38
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'; andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com
> Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
>
>
> > ... trudge that twenty miles so as to send a
> > telegram to Craig...
>
> Stop lying. I know for a fact you were using smoke signals!!
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
> Software Engineer/Open Source Evangelist
> http://www.open-tools.org
>
> "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but
> when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
> - Bjarne Stroustrup
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Hill [mailto:andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:33 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
> >
> >
> > Why son, back in my day I remember havin ta trudge twenty
> > miles through the
> > snow just to get my hands on one of them struts 1.02 source
> > files cos we
> > didnt have no documentation back then!
> >
> > Nope. None of that fancy (e)book learning for us son! Werent no struts
> > classes we cud take either - an I means that in both senses
> > as we didnt have
> > class files like as ye hev now - we had to execute the code
> > ourselves. None
> > of them jvm things was invented yet.
> >
> > A'cos, once ye got yerself a source file, yer'd hev ta thaw
> > it out afore ye
> > cud read it. We didnt hev no fancy ant tasks for that back
> > then. Nosiree -
> > yed hev to use real fire and heat it real careful like, then
> > ye cud load it
> > into yer steam powered beta version of vi and work out just what that
> > critter was up to.
> >
> > A'cos there werent no sruts list back then neither. Why - if
> > we had us a
> > question bout some source file - well we'd just hev ta trudge
> > that twenty
> > miles so as to send a telegram to Craig, and then we'd have
> > to wait us a
> > whole week and trudge us another twenty miles to get the reply.
> >
> > Mind you son - some things was better back then too. We din't hev no
> > internet so's we din't need ta worry ourselves about writin'
> > any of them
> > fancy newfangled jayespees or html forms, and since we didnt
> > hav ta do them,
> > why them thar action classes seemed a lot easier to do too...
> > Nows that I
> > come to think of it, we spent pretty darn well most of our
> > development time
> > out in the snow - if we weren't cartin round frozen source
> > code files then
> > we was cuttin wood to thaw them out or to burn in the boiler
> > so as we cud
> > use vi to read em - did I mention as how it was steam powered
> > back then?...
> >
> > ...hang on. This was like a few months ago and I live in the
> > tropics. Hmm.
> > Nevermind.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick Reumann [mailto:maillist@reumann.net]
> > Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 14:58
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Struts Productivity Survey
> >
> >
> > The problem with this survey is that the results you would
> > get would not
> > be accurate for assessing the time it would take new
> > developers to catch
> > on to using Struts at the present time. There is now a lot more
> > documentation and examples out there to learn from than there was just
> > six months ago. My biggest frustration in the beginning was
> > the lack of
> > examples and cohesive documentation of how all the different
> > pieces fit
> > together. Most of the learning took place by digging into the examples
> > that come with struts and those on Ted's site and then asking
> > questions.
> > Now, however, there are several great books out there( Chucks, Ted's,
> > etc.) and had I had them when I first started life would have
> > been much
> > easier. I think it's really going be difficult to get an accurate feel
> > for how long it takes people to get 'up to speed' with struts since I
> > think it's much easier now for new developers to learn struts
> > simply due
> > to the books and better documentation available.
> >
> > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:20:00 -0600 <Gr...@alltel.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I am conducting an informal survey to determine how difficult it is
> > > for new developers with differing skills becomve productive with
> > > Struts. This really only applies to those using 1.1x.
> > Anyone who is
> > > willing, please answer the following questions:
> > >
> > > 1. How long did it take you to get the Struts Framework up and
> > > running for the first time? 2. How long did it take you to get your
> > > first business component going in the Struts Framework
> > (this involves
> > > Action class, page, business objects, etc. from start to
> > completion.)
> > > 3. Would you describe your Software Development experience as a)
> > > novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 4. Would you describe your Java
> > > competencies as a) novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 5. Would you
> > > describe your J2EE/servlet/JSP competencies as a) novice,
> > b) advanced,
> > > or c) expert? 6. What was the hardest part about learning
> > Struts for
> > > you?
> > >
> > > Thanks. If the response is interesting I'll compile it and post it
> > > back to the list. Greg
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rick
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:struts-user-> unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For
> > additional commands,
> > e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
Posted by Andrew Hill <an...@gridnode.com>.
True, but at the interface layer they were still telegrams, it was just that
we used smoke signals in the implementation layer sometimes...
-----Original Message-----
From: James Mitchell [mailto:jmitchell@apache.org]
Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 12:38
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'; andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com
Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
> ... trudge that twenty miles so as to send a
> telegram to Craig...
Stop lying. I know for a fact you were using smoke signals!!
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer/Open Source Evangelist
http://www.open-tools.org
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but
when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Hill [mailto:andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:33 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
>
>
> Why son, back in my day I remember havin ta trudge twenty
> miles through the
> snow just to get my hands on one of them struts 1.02 source
> files cos we
> didnt have no documentation back then!
>
> Nope. None of that fancy (e)book learning for us son! Werent no struts
> classes we cud take either - an I means that in both senses
> as we didnt have
> class files like as ye hev now - we had to execute the code
> ourselves. None
> of them jvm things was invented yet.
>
> A'cos, once ye got yerself a source file, yer'd hev ta thaw
> it out afore ye
> cud read it. We didnt hev no fancy ant tasks for that back
> then. Nosiree -
> yed hev to use real fire and heat it real careful like, then
> ye cud load it
> into yer steam powered beta version of vi and work out just what that
> critter was up to.
>
> A'cos there werent no sruts list back then neither. Why - if
> we had us a
> question bout some source file - well we'd just hev ta trudge
> that twenty
> miles so as to send a telegram to Craig, and then we'd have
> to wait us a
> whole week and trudge us another twenty miles to get the reply.
>
> Mind you son - some things was better back then too. We din't hev no
> internet so's we din't need ta worry ourselves about writin'
> any of them
> fancy newfangled jayespees or html forms, and since we didnt
> hav ta do them,
> why them thar action classes seemed a lot easier to do too...
> Nows that I
> come to think of it, we spent pretty darn well most of our
> development time
> out in the snow - if we weren't cartin round frozen source
> code files then
> we was cuttin wood to thaw them out or to burn in the boiler
> so as we cud
> use vi to read em - did I mention as how it was steam powered
> back then?...
>
> ...hang on. This was like a few months ago and I live in the
> tropics. Hmm.
> Nevermind.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Reumann [mailto:maillist@reumann.net]
> Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 14:58
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Struts Productivity Survey
>
>
> The problem with this survey is that the results you would
> get would not
> be accurate for assessing the time it would take new
> developers to catch
> on to using Struts at the present time. There is now a lot more
> documentation and examples out there to learn from than there was just
> six months ago. My biggest frustration in the beginning was
> the lack of
> examples and cohesive documentation of how all the different
> pieces fit
> together. Most of the learning took place by digging into the examples
> that come with struts and those on Ted's site and then asking
> questions.
> Now, however, there are several great books out there( Chucks, Ted's,
> etc.) and had I had them when I first started life would have
> been much
> easier. I think it's really going be difficult to get an accurate feel
> for how long it takes people to get 'up to speed' with struts since I
> think it's much easier now for new developers to learn struts
> simply due
> to the books and better documentation available.
>
> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:20:00 -0600 <Gr...@alltel.com> wrote:
>
> > I am conducting an informal survey to determine how difficult it is
> > for new developers with differing skills becomve productive with
> > Struts. This really only applies to those using 1.1x.
> Anyone who is
> > willing, please answer the following questions:
> >
> > 1. How long did it take you to get the Struts Framework up and
> > running for the first time? 2. How long did it take you to get your
> > first business component going in the Struts Framework
> (this involves
> > Action class, page, business objects, etc. from start to
> completion.)
> > 3. Would you describe your Software Development experience as a)
> > novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 4. Would you describe your Java
> > competencies as a) novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 5. Would you
> > describe your J2EE/servlet/JSP competencies as a) novice,
> b) advanced,
> > or c) expert? 6. What was the hardest part about learning
> Struts for
> > you?
> >
> > Thanks. If the response is interesting I'll compile it and post it
> > back to the list. Greg
>
>
> --
> Rick
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:struts-user-> unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
> For
> additional commands,
> e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
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For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
> ... trudge that twenty miles so as to send a
> telegram to Craig...
Stop lying. I know for a fact you were using smoke signals!!
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer/Open Source Evangelist
http://www.open-tools.org
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but
when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Hill [mailto:andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:33 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: [FRIDAY] RE: Struts Productivity Survey
>
>
> Why son, back in my day I remember havin ta trudge twenty
> miles through the
> snow just to get my hands on one of them struts 1.02 source
> files cos we
> didnt have no documentation back then!
>
> Nope. None of that fancy (e)book learning for us son! Werent no struts
> classes we cud take either - an I means that in both senses
> as we didnt have
> class files like as ye hev now - we had to execute the code
> ourselves. None
> of them jvm things was invented yet.
>
> A'cos, once ye got yerself a source file, yer'd hev ta thaw
> it out afore ye
> cud read it. We didnt hev no fancy ant tasks for that back
> then. Nosiree -
> yed hev to use real fire and heat it real careful like, then
> ye cud load it
> into yer steam powered beta version of vi and work out just what that
> critter was up to.
>
> A'cos there werent no sruts list back then neither. Why - if
> we had us a
> question bout some source file - well we'd just hev ta trudge
> that twenty
> miles so as to send a telegram to Craig, and then we'd have
> to wait us a
> whole week and trudge us another twenty miles to get the reply.
>
> Mind you son - some things was better back then too. We din't hev no
> internet so's we din't need ta worry ourselves about writin'
> any of them
> fancy newfangled jayespees or html forms, and since we didnt
> hav ta do them,
> why them thar action classes seemed a lot easier to do too...
> Nows that I
> come to think of it, we spent pretty darn well most of our
> development time
> out in the snow - if we weren't cartin round frozen source
> code files then
> we was cuttin wood to thaw them out or to burn in the boiler
> so as we cud
> use vi to read em - did I mention as how it was steam powered
> back then?...
>
> ...hang on. This was like a few months ago and I live in the
> tropics. Hmm.
> Nevermind.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Reumann [mailto:maillist@reumann.net]
> Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 14:58
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Struts Productivity Survey
>
>
> The problem with this survey is that the results you would
> get would not
> be accurate for assessing the time it would take new
> developers to catch
> on to using Struts at the present time. There is now a lot more
> documentation and examples out there to learn from than there was just
> six months ago. My biggest frustration in the beginning was
> the lack of
> examples and cohesive documentation of how all the different
> pieces fit
> together. Most of the learning took place by digging into the examples
> that come with struts and those on Ted's site and then asking
> questions.
> Now, however, there are several great books out there( Chucks, Ted's,
> etc.) and had I had them when I first started life would have
> been much
> easier. I think it's really going be difficult to get an accurate feel
> for how long it takes people to get 'up to speed' with struts since I
> think it's much easier now for new developers to learn struts
> simply due
> to the books and better documentation available.
>
> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:20:00 -0600 <Gr...@alltel.com> wrote:
>
> > I am conducting an informal survey to determine how difficult it is
> > for new developers with differing skills becomve productive with
> > Struts. This really only applies to those using 1.1x.
> Anyone who is
> > willing, please answer the following questions:
> >
> > 1. How long did it take you to get the Struts Framework up and
> > running for the first time? 2. How long did it take you to get your
> > first business component going in the Struts Framework
> (this involves
> > Action class, page, business objects, etc. from start to
> completion.)
> > 3. Would you describe your Software Development experience as a)
> > novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 4. Would you describe your Java
> > competencies as a) novice, b) advanced, or c) expert? 5. Would you
> > describe your J2EE/servlet/JSP competencies as a) novice,
> b) advanced,
> > or c) expert? 6. What was the hardest part about learning
> Struts for
> > you?
> >
> > Thanks. If the response is interesting I'll compile it and post it
> > back to the list. Greg
>
>
> --
> Rick
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:struts-user-> unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
> For
> additional commands,
> e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>