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Posted to users@wicket.apache.org by neekibo <te...@gmx.de> on 2007/08/28 15:37:59 UTC
Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Hi all Wicket-users!
I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
suitable framework for my case.
So here a few constrains:
- A webshop with lots of products and categories
- Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
- Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
And a few misgivings:
1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
framework fits better in this context.
2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment process
(ssl over http is guess)
4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket is
much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
Thanks in advance
Paul
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Nathan Hamblen <na...@technically.us>.
Xavier Hanin wrote:
> Note that databinder can be used with Spring too. It's useful for exposing
> your hibernate beans as wicket models.
The beginning of this thread is not on gmane for some reason. But, yeah
actually I've done a few web stores with Databinder. As always I find
Wicket to be helpful no matter how simple the front end is, but where it
really pays off is on the administration side. You can pile on the
functionality without the code becoming a nightmare, and reusing
components is even easier when no one is obsessing over appearance. Even
on the front end, checkout is a multistep process that I would hate to
code without managed state.
Nathan
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Xavier Hanin <xa...@gmail.com>.
On 8/29/07, neekibo <te...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks to all,
>
> I will analyse how complex my UI will be and than evaluate if Wicket fits
> in.
>
> Thanks for pointing at Stripes... I always thought: "Spring is so cool,
> everybody says that." So SpringMVC is the way to go, but as mentioned here
> it is quite low-level.
>
> My today's two favourites :=)
>
> 1. Wicket - SpringCore - Hibernate
> 2. Stripes - SpringCore - Hibernate
>
> Thanks for pointing at http://databinder.net/site/show/overviewDatabinder
> . I will discuss with myself if abandon Spring is an option. I guess using
> Spring only makes sense when you have to code quite a bit of business
> logic.
Note that databinder can be used with Spring too. It's useful for exposing
your hibernate beans as wicket models.
Xavier
Discussion, especially arguments against Wicket, my case in mind, are
> welcome :=)
>
> Paul
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Is-Wicket-a-proper-framework-for-a-Webshop---tf4341788.html#a12384390
> Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>
--
Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
http://xhab.blogspot.com/
http://incubator.apache.org/ivy/
http://www.xoocode.org/
Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by neekibo <te...@gmx.de>.
Thanks to all,
I will analyse how complex my UI will be and than evaluate if Wicket fits
in.
Thanks for pointing at Stripes... I always thought: "Spring is so cool,
everybody says that." So SpringMVC is the way to go, but as mentioned here
it is quite low-level.
My today's two favourites :=)
1. Wicket - SpringCore - Hibernate
2. Stripes - SpringCore - Hibernate
Thanks for pointing at http://databinder.net/site/show/overview Databinder
. I will discuss with myself if abandon Spring is an option. I guess using
Spring only makes sense when you have to code quite a bit of business logic.
Discussion, especially arguments against Wicket, my case in mind, are
welcome :=)
Paul
--
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
wicket is good for complicated user interfaces.
if you are a building a very simple webstore then probably for the front end
it might not make sense to use wicket if your ui is simple and there are
only 2-3 pages there. the backend management stuff is another story and will
most likely greatly benefit from wicket.
-igor
On 8/28/07, neekibo <te...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all Wicket-users!
>
> I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
> suitable framework for my case.
>
> So here a few constrains:
> - A webshop with lots of products and categories
> - Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
> - Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
>
> And a few misgivings:
> 1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
> db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
> framework fits better in this context.
> 2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
> achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
> 3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment process
> (ssl over http is guess)
> 4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
> but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket
> is
> much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
>
> So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
> something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
> concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Paul
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Is-Wicket-a-proper-framework-for-a-Webshop---tf4341788.html#a12368098
> Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@wicket.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@wicket.apache.org
>
>
Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Johan Compagner <jc...@gmail.com>.
GWT for a webshop? that doesnt look as a right fit to me. Also you
need nice bookmarkable an crawleable urls for a webshop, that is
possible just fine now in wicket (especially the new hybrid url
support in 1.3) but with gwt this is not really possible, a full ajax
webshop is in my eyes a contradiction..
On 8/28/07, Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It sounds to me like GWT might be a better choice, especially if you
> need Ajax & robust back button support. Wicket is a good choice when
> you need a mixed approach.
>
> I don't think SpringMVC would be a better choice in any way.
>
> Eelco
>
> On 8/28/07, neekibo <te...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all Wicket-users!
> >
> > I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
> > suitable framework for my case.
> >
> > So here a few constrains:
> > - A webshop with lots of products and categories
> > - Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
> > - Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
> >
> > And a few misgivings:
> > 1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
> > db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
> > framework fits better in this context.
> > 2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
> > achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
> > 3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment
> process
> > (ssl over http is guess)
> > 4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
> > but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket
> is
> > much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
> >
> > So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
> > something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
> > concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > Paul
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Is-Wicket-a-proper-framework-for-a-Webshop---tf4341788.html#a12368098
> > Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@wicket.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@wicket.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
On 8/29/07, William Hoover <wh...@nemours.org> wrote:
> Could you elaborate on what is lacking in Wicket when referring to the back button support (when compared to GWT)? I was under the impression that Wicket had robust back button support?
Wicket's back button support is pretty robust for normal (non-ajax)
requests. The problem we have with the Ajax back button comes down to
the fact that we have to synchronize client with server state in such
a fashion that it also keeps working with normal requests. GWT is all
client side and thus doesn't have that problem. It's *Ajax* back
button support is better, though it's not very automatic from what
I've seen, and I wonder how it survives leaving a single page
approach.
We haven't given up on better Ajax back button support for Wicket
though. See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/WICKET-271.
Contributions are welcome as always.
Regards,
Eelco
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RE: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by William Hoover <wh...@nemours.org>.
Could you elaborate on what is lacking in Wicket when referring to the back button support (when compared to GWT)? I was under the impression that Wicket had robust back button support?
-----Original Message-----
From: Eelco Hillenius [mailto:eelco.hillenius@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:56 PM
To: users@wicket.apache.org
Subject: Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
It sounds to me like GWT might be a better choice, especially if you
need Ajax & robust back button support. Wicket is a good choice when
you need a mixed approach.
I don't think SpringMVC would be a better choice in any way.
Eelco
On 8/28/07, neekibo <te...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Hi all Wicket-users!
>
> I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
> suitable framework for my case.
>
> So here a few constrains:
> - A webshop with lots of products and categories
> - Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
> - Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
>
> And a few misgivings:
> 1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
> db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
> framework fits better in this context.
> 2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
> achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
> 3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment process
> (ssl over http is guess)
> 4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
> but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket is
> much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
>
> So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
> something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
> concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Paul
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Is-Wicket-a-proper-framework-for-a-Webshop---tf4341788.html#a12368098
> Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@wicket.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@wicket.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
It sounds to me like GWT might be a better choice, especially if you
need Ajax & robust back button support. Wicket is a good choice when
you need a mixed approach.
I don't think SpringMVC would be a better choice in any way.
Eelco
On 8/28/07, neekibo <te...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Hi all Wicket-users!
>
> I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
> suitable framework for my case.
>
> So here a few constrains:
> - A webshop with lots of products and categories
> - Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
> - Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
>
> And a few misgivings:
> 1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
> db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
> framework fits better in this context.
> 2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
> achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
> 3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment process
> (ssl over http is guess)
> 4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
> but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket is
> much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
>
> So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
> something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
> concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Paul
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Is-Wicket-a-proper-framework-for-a-Webshop---tf4341788.html#a12368098
> Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@wicket.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@wicket.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Per Ejeklint <ej...@mac.com>.
Paul, you might want to have a look at http://databinder.net/ Databinder by
Nathan Hamblen. It uses Wicket and Hibernate in a lean and mean mode and is
made for rapid development (I dare say). Nathan himself is using it to build
webshops for all kinds of http://www.gemmaredux.com/ odd items .
/Per
neekibo wrote:
>
> Hi all Wicket-users!
>
> I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
> suitable framework for my case.
>
> So here a few constrains:
> - A webshop with lots of products and categories
> - Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
> - Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
>
> And a few misgivings:
> 1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
> db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
> framework fits better in this context.
> 2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
> achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
> 3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment
> process (ssl over http is guess)
> 4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
> but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket
> is much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
>
> So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
> something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
> concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Paul
>
--
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
On 8/28/07, Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not
> that my opinion would surprise anyone I bet :)
you do seem a little prejudiced :)
-igor
Eelco
>
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>
Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
> For the record I completely agree with you :)
>
> I'm in the process of slapping the developers around here, trying to get
> them to wake up.
>
> Senior dev's recommending struts 1 for gods sake... now that's what i call
> afraid of change....
> It's out of ignorance, and their unwillingness to see what else is out
> there.
Yep, I know all about it. In fact, right before reading this mail, I
wrote this: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/seajug/message/12862
:-)
Eelco
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
On 8/29/07, Gerolf Seitz <ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > google wicket-bench
> >
> > -igor
> >
>
> i know wicket-bench, have used it for wicket 1.2 actually.
> oh, and i like mark occurences too ;)
And to make it complete, there is supposedly nice support for Netbeans
as well: https://nbwicketsupport.dev.java.net/. It's seen a whole
batch of improvements just weeks ago for the new Netbeans version.
Eelco
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Gerolf Seitz <ge...@gmail.com>.
>
> google wicket-bench
>
> -igor
>
i know wicket-bench, have used it for wicket 1.2 actually.
oh, and i like mark occurences too ;)
Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
google wicket-bench
-igor
On 8/29/07, Gerolf Seitz <ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > ..., how many component libraries and tools there
> > are for them (regardless of the fact the quality of them and whether
> > that is a good thing in the first place), ...
> >
>
> that's what i like about wicket, you practically don't need additional
> tools
> (which you have to learn to use, learn to avoid any drawbacks or known
> issues of the tool etc...). everything you know about your ide, you can
> use
> to develop with wicket. productivity++ ;)
>
> having said that, i like the feature list of wicketforge (
> http://code.google.com/p/wicketforge/) as it seems that . but as i'm on
> the
> eclipse side of the world, ...
>
> gerolf
>
Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Gerolf Seitz <ge...@gmail.com>.
>
> ..., how many component libraries and tools there
> are for them (regardless of the fact the quality of them and whether
> that is a good thing in the first place), ...
>
that's what i like about wicket, you practically don't need additional tools
(which you have to learn to use, learn to avoid any drawbacks or known
issues of the tool etc...). everything you know about your ide, you can use
to develop with wicket. productivity++ ;)
having said that, i like the feature list of wicketforge (
http://code.google.com/p/wicketforge/) as it seems that . but as i'm on the
eclipse side of the world, ...
gerolf
Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
> I the time we've been working on Wicket, and especially in the
> beginning, about 80% of the discussions outside the lists about Wicket
> and other non-standard technologies are always lead back to the same
> lousy short sighted arguments. Take for instance
Hmmm... I didn't quite finish that sentence. Basically, I mean
arguments like how many hits on job search sites it has, whether it is
backed by big vendors, how many component libraries and tools there
are for them (regardless of the fact the quality of them and whether
that is a good thing in the first place), etc. Arguments that may have
some merit in them, but I hate to see those managerial arguments
prevail in technical discussions so often.
Eelco
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
> It could also mean their unwillingness to commit their time and
> money on education. Do not rush with this kinds of claims. Everyone
> has their reasons - not everyone is lazy. If you have good enough
> reasons to make them move to Wicket they will probably do so.
> Otherwise, blame yourself for your inability to influence.
I think you are the one rushing to a conclusion here. Or do you know his team?
I the time we've been working on Wicket, and especially in the
beginning, about 80% of the discussions outside the lists about Wicket
and other non-standard technologies are always lead back to the same
lousy short sighted arguments. Take for instance
> Component based frameworks are not obvious. While a reasonable
> developer of decent experience could pick up Struts 1/2 and be
> efficient with it in a couple of hours. I would definitely drop Struts 1,
> and stick with Struts 2 as that is a different kind of animal.
Whether component based frameworks are obvious or not largely depends
on where you're coming from. Don't think Struts is obvious to many
people, even if you can learn it in a few hours.
> I am not quite sure why Eelco is being so pushy on claiming no OOP is
> done there
Well, sorry for having an opinion. Model 2 frameworks encourage
procedural programming. I'll repeat that a thousand times if you like.
'Actions' are not stateful, and their abstraction level matches the
request/ response cycle, not anything more granular. If you're coding
with model 2 frameworks, you are basically receiving a request,
interpreting the parameters sent with that request, preparing the data
for use in the view - which you in fact do globally for that template!
- and finally requesting the framework to render a template. Now in
contrast, applying OOP means that you can create abstractions that
combine data (stateful) and behavior (scoped on the class, not the
request/ response cycle) and that you can properly apply data hiding
(link A doesn't have to have knowledge of link B/ rest of the page to
function).
> but I would really stay away from his opnions unless
> they are somehow Wicket directed :-)
Wow. I'd really like you to elaborate on that.
Eelco
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Alex Shneyderman <a....@gmail.com>.
> I'm in the process of slapping the developers around here, trying to get
> them to wake up.
>
> Senior dev's recommending struts 1 for gods sake... now that's what i call
> afraid of change....
> It's out of ignorance, and their unwillingness to see what else is out
> there.
It could also mean their unwillingness to commit their time and
money on education. Do not rush with this kinds of claims. Everyone
has their reasons - not everyone is lazy. If you have good enough
reasons to make them move to Wicket they will probably do so.
Otherwise, blame yourself for your inability to influence.
Component based frameworks are not obvious. While a reasonable
developer of decent experience could pick up Struts 1/2 and be
efficient with it in a couple of hours. I would definitely drop Struts 1,
and stick with Struts 2 as that is a different kind of animal. I am not
quite sure why Eelco is being so pushy on claiming no OOP is
done there, but I would really stay away from his opnions unless
they are somehow Wicket directed :-)
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Antony Stubbs <an...@gmail.com>.
For the record I completely agree with you :)
I'm in the process of slapping the developers around here, trying to get
them to wake up.
Senior dev's recommending struts 1 for gods sake... now that's what i call
afraid of change....
It's out of ignorance, and their unwillingness to see what else is out
there.
Eelco Hillenius wrote:
>
>> If you're looking for a good action oriented framework - check out
>> Stripes -
>> I hear it's very good at what it does.
>> The other alternative is Struts 2, but I hear people prefer Stripes.
>> Spring MVC seems to be getting a little behind...
>
> imho any action oriented/ model 2 framework doesn't help you much,
> whether you are using Ajax or not. There are no facilities for reuse,
> the abstraction (simply request/ response) is too shallow to manage
> complexity, they encourage procedural programming, etc. If you /must/
> use a model 2 framework, Stripes seems to be the best choice. Though I
> would just pick a component oriented framework like Wicket or GWT. Not
> that my opinion would surprise anyone I bet :)
>
> Eelco
>
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
> If you're looking for a good action oriented framework - check out Stripes -
> I hear it's very good at what it does.
> The other alternative is Struts 2, but I hear people prefer Stripes.
> Spring MVC seems to be getting a little behind...
imho any action oriented/ model 2 framework doesn't help you much,
whether you are using Ajax or not. There are no facilities for reuse,
the abstraction (simply request/ response) is too shallow to manage
complexity, they encourage procedural programming, etc. If you /must/
use a model 2 framework, Stripes seems to be the best choice. Though I
would just pick a component oriented framework like Wicket or GWT. Not
that my opinion would surprise anyone I bet :)
Eelco
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Re: Is Wicket a proper framework for a Webshop ?
Posted by Antony Stubbs <an...@gmail.com>.
If you're looking for a good action oriented framework - check out Stripes -
I hear it's very good at what it does.
The other alternative is Struts 2, but I hear people prefer Stripes.
Spring MVC seems to be getting a little behind...
neekibo wrote:
>
> Hi all Wicket-users!
>
> I am new to web development and so to Wicket. I'm searching for a/the
> suitable framework for my case.
>
> So here a few constrains:
> - A webshop with lots of products and categories
> - Integration with SpringCore and Hibernate
> - Ajax-Magic for a fast responding UI and Drag'n'Drop
>
> And a few misgivings:
> 1.) A component framework is overhead for a webshop (mostly simple
> db-read-access operations without a state). A request/response-driven
> framework fits better in this context.
> 2.) I need standard back and forth browser behaviour. Is this easy to
> achieve (with ajax in mind) ?
> 3.) Security: I need to easy code "sign in" and secure the payment
> process (ssl over http is guess)
> 4.) Performance/Scalability. I know, in general the DB is the bottleneck
> but ... compared to action-based frameworks. I read somewhere that Wicket
> is much faster that JSF, so this seems good to me.
>
> So these are just a few thoughts, I'm a new to this topic, so pardon me if
> something is wrong. In the moment my alternative is SpringMVC. But the
> concepts of Wicket appeals to me. Especially the complete lack of JSPs.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Paul
>
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