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Posted to women@apache.org by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com> on 2005/08/31 05:45:05 UTC
Is posting to this list easy or hard?
Greetings, all,
Somebody dropped me a note, saying that she found the archival of
women@apache.org to be intimidating.
I can appreciate that concern. For example, if I post something that
turns out to have incorrect information I'm kind of embarrassed by the
thought it will be archived. On the bright side, if I misunderstood
something, it's likely somebody else will, too, and maybe they'll learn
from my mail list thread.
How do you feel about the archival of this list? What kinds of things
would particularly concern you knowing they are archived?
Is there anything else about this list that would make you shy away from
posting to it?
regards,
-jean
p.s. I tried to reply to the person who emailed me, but that reply bounced.
Re: ApacheCon Hackathon (was Is posting to this list easy or hard?)
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> What's the best advice for someone on women@ who is interested in going
> but is not a committer? contact a committer on her apache project? post
> to this list?
Fortunately or not, things like this effectively work on personal
relationships. So if you're a non-committer ask around (nicely, of
course) in any of the communities you already participate, or ask around
here or on community@ or the like.
If you're still really not ready to bust into open mailing lists yet
asking for an invite, then just email Jean - it sounds like she just
volunteered to consider taking guests... 8-P
> p.s. btw, I like your factoids, Shane.
Gosh, thanks! Was hoping they were appreciated. I've been a tester and
tech writer as well as a coder, so (when I have time) it's nice to
demistify the uber-geek talk now and then.
- Shane
Re: ApacheCon Hackathon (was Is posting to this list easy or hard?)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Shane Curcuru wrote:
> The Hackathon is free and is open to committers and invited guests of
> committers. It is held Sun/Sat 10/11-Dec of ApacheCon US - during the
> tutorials - in a conference room in the same hotel.
>
> To attend, you *must* update the hackathon signup sheet. (OK, you don't
> have to, but you might not get a t-shirt if you don't!) To invite a
> guest - someone who hopefully is interested in something about Apache
> and is kinda cool - simply put their name in the signup sheet as well,
> marked [GUEST].
>
> See svn://committers/hackathons/2005/ApacheCon_US.txt for details and
> the hackathon signup sheet.
ok, I just added myself to the signup sheet.
What's the best advice for someone on women@ who is interested in going
but is not a committer? contact a committer on her apache project? post
to this list?
-jean
p.s. btw, I like your factoids, Shane.
Re: ApacheCon Hackathon (was Is posting to this list easy or hard?)
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
The Hackathon is free and is open to committers and invited guests of
committers. It is held Sun/Sat 10/11-Dec of ApacheCon US - during the
tutorials - in a conference room in the same hotel.
To attend, you *must* update the hackathon signup sheet. (OK, you don't
have to, but you might not get a t-shirt if you don't!) To invite a
guest - someone who hopefully is interested in something about Apache
and is kinda cool - simply put their name in the signup sheet as well,
marked [GUEST].
See svn://committers/hackathons/2005/ApacheCon_US.txt for details and
the hackathon signup sheet.
The hackathon itself is an unstructured event, and is basically a big
room with power and networking where folks can meetup, do work,
socialize, and collaborate. Some ASF projects organize their own
meetings during this time; some folks just come to kibbitz and catch up
with friends; some folks come to make new friends.
Hope to see folks there!
- Shane
Faqtoid: What the heck kind of protocol is svn://committers...?
svn stands for Subversion, the new revision control system that's taking
the world by revolution, and is replacing CVS at Apache as our supported
code checkin system. The format above is a common shorthand, and
assumes you know where the committers repository actually is (which is
https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers).
Note that this repository is private to all existing ASF committers (of
any projects), so if you're not a committer this is one of the few
things at the ASF you cannot see.
Re: ApacheCon Hackathon (was Is posting to this list easy or hard?)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
> >...
> >One, it is really really beneficial to come to the hackathon and
> >ApacheCon - it puts a lot more humanness into the ASF.
>
> I've never been to the hackathon (though I think I will this time). From
> previous rounds, I can say for anyone wondering that there's no charge
> to attend the hackathon. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.
>
> Can somebody explain how to sign up for the hackathon?
The announcement and details were sent to all committers
on 1 October.
It is a good idea for committers to also subscribe to the
committers-cvs@a.o list.
I recommend going. For me it is the highlight of ApacheCon.
-David
ApacheCon Hackathon (was Is posting to this list easy or hard?)
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote:
> ...
> One, it is really really beneficial to come to the hackathon and
> ApacheCon - it puts a lot more humanness into the ASF.
I've never been to the hackathon (though I think I will this time). From
previous rounds, I can say for anyone wondering that there's no charge
to attend the hackathon. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.
Can somebody explain how to sign up for the hackathon?
Also, Ben Laurie mentioned in another thread that committers can invite
noncommitters. So, what's the procedure for a committer adding a
non-committer?
thanks,
-jean
Re: Is posting to this list easy or hard?
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
+1 on both of Ted's comments at the end...(not so related to posting)...
Personally, I'm planning to attend the hackathon (for the facetime).
Of course I'm *also* planning to attend the Women@Apache BOF, which
has *just* been scheduled for 9:30-10:30 PST on Monday night at
ApacheCon. Woo Hoo!
And Karl Fogle's book (which Ted plugged) is a great one. Truly.
Danese
On Nov 2, 2005, at 10:49 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>
> On Aug 30, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>
>> Greetings, all,
>>
>> Somebody dropped me a note, saying that she found the archival of
>> women@apache.org to be intimidating.
>>
>> I can appreciate that concern. For example, if I post something
>> that turns out to have incorrect information I'm kind of
>> embarrassed by the thought it will be archived. On the bright
>> side, if I misunderstood something, it's likely somebody else
>> will, too, and maybe they'll learn from my mail list thread.
>>
>
> I agree that this can be intimidating. Others have already
> mentioned lots of good points about this. One other thing that I
> would add is that all the contributors, the "in group", if you
> like, have been in the same position. Also, we all have made
> mistakes and have had them recorded in e-mail. One of the things
> that I like about open source is that in a way it is an admission
> that we make mistakes. The very design of open source communities
> is an effort to recognize this and make up for our individual
> failings. I think that finding a way to communicate that aspect
> might make things less scary.
>
>
>> Is there anything else about this list that would make you shy
>> away from posting to it?
>>
>
> I've been trying to be quiet because I felt that the men were
> speaking up too much.
>
> So I'll pack two more thoughts into this one message.
>
> One, it is really really beneficial to come to the hackathon and
> ApacheCon - it puts a lot more humanness into the ASF. I remember
> the first time I went. Roy Fielding, then Chairman, and one of the
> Founders of the ASF was commenting during the plenary session "Wow,
> it's great to be here and finally meet all these people that I've
> been working with for years". It really made me feel like we were
> all just people.
>
> Two, there's an excellent book Producing Open Source Software,
> that's just come out. You can read it on-line at <http://
> producingoss.com>. I think that this is a terrific resource for
> people new to open source. It's not perfectly the "Apache Way" but
> there's still a lot of good practical content.
>
> I hope that I'll meet a lot of you at ApacheCon.
>
> Ted
> ----
> Ted Leung Blog: <http://www.sauria.com/blog>
> PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42
>
>
Re: Is posting to this list easy or hard?
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Aug 30, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Greetings, all,
>
> Somebody dropped me a note, saying that she found the archival of
> women@apache.org to be intimidating.
>
> I can appreciate that concern. For example, if I post something
> that turns out to have incorrect information I'm kind of
> embarrassed by the thought it will be archived. On the bright side,
> if I misunderstood something, it's likely somebody else will, too,
> and maybe they'll learn from my mail list thread.
I agree that this can be intimidating. Others have already mentioned
lots of good points about this. One other thing that I would add is
that all the contributors, the "in group", if you like, have been in
the same position. Also, we all have made mistakes and have had
them recorded in e-mail. One of the things that I like about open
source is that in a way it is an admission that we make mistakes.
The very design of open source communities is an effort to recognize
this and make up for our individual failings. I think that finding
a way to communicate that aspect might make things less scary.
> Is there anything else about this list that would make you shy away
> from posting to it?
I've been trying to be quiet because I felt that the men were
speaking up too much.
So I'll pack two more thoughts into this one message.
One, it is really really beneficial to come to the hackathon and
ApacheCon - it puts a lot more humanness into the ASF. I remember
the first time I went. Roy Fielding, then Chairman, and one of the
Founders of the ASF was commenting during the plenary session "Wow,
it's great to be here and finally meet all these people that I've
been working with for years". It really made me feel like we were
all just people.
Two, there's an excellent book Producing Open Source Software, that's
just come out. You can read it on-line at <http://
producingoss.com>. I think that this is a terrific resource for
people new to open source. It's not perfectly the "Apache Way" but
there's still a lot of good practical content.
I hope that I'll meet a lot of you at ApacheCon.
Ted
----
Ted Leung Blog: <http://www.sauria.com/blog>
PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42
Re: Is posting to this list easy or hard?
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Justy touches on an fundamental issue of the ASF itself: openness in
(most) mailing lists. It's fundamental to how we do things - both make
technical decisions about projects on pmc@ or dev@ lists, as well as on
community-based lists like women@ or community@ (or party@).
I'm not sure how to make the openness easier; I'm so used to it I don't
even think about it anymore (my Google number is all about my past xml
project participation). A couple of random thoughts:
- Anything you email to a group is nearly public anyways. Remember,
every single person who gets your email probably saves it somewhere, may
forward it to other folks who find it useful, and in some cases may make
it public anyway (either on purpose or mistakenly). So posting to an
ASF list with a public archive isn't that much more exposure than other
emails you've sent.
- Having the public archive is critical for community building. Don't
think about the tiny possibility that you'll be embarassed by something
you wrote a year from now. Think of all the readers to the list (or
archive) who will either 1) learn something from the answers to your
question, or 2) feel more comfortable posting to the list themselves.
Public archives are also fundamental to how the ASF views communities of
all sorts.
- Trust me - if you're reading this, and you've read the list for a bit
and thought about good netiquette, then you're not going to be
embarassed about a posting. If you're worrying about it, you'll do just
fine. There are plenty of examples of people who don't think about it
at all and post all sorts of dumb stuff who can take up all the
embarassing slots.
Note that we do have a number of mailing lists which are not publicly
archived, like board@, legal-blah@, and so on. These are kept private
for various legal and organizational reasons, since much of the official
running of the ASF as a corporation cannot effectively be done in
immediate public view. Note that board minutes and other items are
always posted publicly later
- Shane
### Faqtoid:
What the heck does "party@" mean?
That's shorthand for the party -at- apache =dot= org mailing list.
Folks often use just the name of the list as shorthand; the domain name
is either apache.org or the 'obvious' domain name (i.e. xml.apache.org,
or jakarta.apache.org, etc.)
Justyna Horwat wrote:
> I think that this touches on a fundamental issue that many women (and
> men) have with how to participate in the Apache Software Foundation.
>
> The ASF functions in the open with all of the lists publicly available
> and archived.
Re: Is posting to this list easy or hard?
Posted by Bani <bo...@gmail.com>.
The ASF functions in the open with all of the lists publicly
> available and archived. This can be very intimidating and can cause
> many people to turn away. I think it would be worthwhile to discuss
> how we can make this public and open nature of the ASF less
> intimidating and promote more participation.
>
> I don't have an easy answer here. I have to admit I was intimidated
> when I first started working with the ASF. I felt like I was entering
> the playground of the brightest and best and that I was not their peer.
Although the main topic of this list is not open source software itself,
it's tightly related to it. I believe that many women here plan to
participate in one or more ASF projects. So, they will have to deal with
their words (in English or in code lines) being public available sooner or
later. I think this list is a good place to start getting used to this,
since at least we expect this to be a friendlier environment. Writing OSS is
also a matter of confidence.
I agree that talking about our participation in the community is something
more personal than talking agout code, but if we believe it's something
worth to be discussed in a list where we barely know the other participants,
we can't be intimidated by thet fact that people outside this list will be
able to read it too. If someone outside the list takes the time to see the
archieve, it's probably because this person is interested in the subject
too.
Vanessa
Re: Is posting to this list easy or hard?
Posted by Justyna Horwat <ho...@horwat.com>.
I think that this touches on a fundamental issue that many women (and
men) have with how to participate in the Apache Software Foundation.
The ASF functions in the open with all of the lists publicly
available and archived. This can be very intimidating and can cause
many people to turn away. I think it would be worthwhile to discuss
how we can make this public and open nature of the ASF less
intimidating and promote more participation.
I don't have an easy answer here. I have to admit I was intimidated
when I first started working with the ASF. I felt like I was entering
the playground of the brightest and best and that I was not their peer.
That initial leap into participating with the foundation was the most
difficult part. After that the relationships that I built made it
easy. I agree that joining smaller projects "feels easier" than
joining a larger one. I just say that it feels that way because
joining a larger one can be just as easy. I don't want to generalize
too much because the nature of various projects in the ASF varies so
greatly.
The archival of public forums may seem intimidating especially when
you consider that once something is out in the internet, it's there
forever. I know I have a couple of choice e-mails that I'd rather not
have archived and available in Google.
However, having said that, I think that the benefits of archival far
outweigh the drawbacks. What's nice is that everyone is in the same
boat. It's a level playing field. I also found it immensely useful to
search archives for information. The majority of my questions are
answered by archives and they're a great learning tool.
You don't need to have all of your discussions out in the public
archives. If there's something that I don't want to say or ask in
public I write a private message.
I think of all the posts, the first post is the most difficult. I
like how this list is structured where that first post is encouraged
and structured so that it's easy to write.
Thanks,
Justyna
On Aug 30, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Greetings, all,
>
> Somebody dropped me a note, saying that she found the archival of
> women@apache.org to be intimidating.
>
> I can appreciate that concern. For example, if I post something
> that turns out to have incorrect information I'm kind of
> embarrassed by the thought it will be archived. On the bright side,
> if I misunderstood something, it's likely somebody else will, too,
> and maybe they'll learn from my mail list thread.
>
> How do you feel about the archival of this list? What kinds of
> things would particularly concern you knowing they are archived?
>
> Is there anything else about this list that would make you shy away
> from posting to it?
>
> regards,
>
> -jean
>
> p.s. I tried to reply to the person who emailed me, but that reply
> bounced.
>