You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by Randy Terbush <ra...@zyzzyva.com> on 1997/07/10 05:47:06 UTC
ASP support in Apache
Has anyone looked at what it might require to support Microsoft's
ASP thingy in Apache?
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Gary Wisniewski <ga...@spidereye.com.au>.
At 12:41 15/07/97 -0400, Doug MacEachern wrote:
>> mod_perl won't help, since it's really just a faster way to write CGI
scripts,
>No, that's only a small part of what mod_perl gives you:
>(from the mod_perl README)
[clip]
>I don't know much about ASP, but Apache/Perl modules such as
>Apache::Embperl, Apache::ePerl and Apache::SSI provide a few ways to
>handle Perl embedded in HTML files.
Let me clarify a bit. I didn't mean to say anything disparaging about
mod_perl,
but I believe ASP and PHP/FI are fundamentally different in that they
emphasize
HTML as the foundation so that non-programmers can more easily
create active pages.
Maybe mod_perl could be packaged as such and SSI use of mod_perl
could be made into the same kind of embedded language. But, to
get logic flow and other things to seamlessly operate spanning HTML
boundaries would be essentially heading down a different design
track.
There are lots and lots of people who can easily "cut-and-paste" bits
of ASP or PHP/FI code, as well as JavaScript, into their pages to make
them work, without really understanding sequential logic per-se. I believe
it would be much more difficult for the same people to exploit any of
the features of mod_perl.
Why is this important?
Well, ASP is creating the same awareness of server-side script authoring as
JavaScript did for client-side. Microsoft is pushing it harder and harder,
and there are Wizards for FP97 which insert ASP code, etc. Judging from
the number of books being written on ASP, and the "anybody can create
active pages" approach, it's working quite well.
So, from an Apache point of view, ASP is the icing on the cake which
would open the eyes of those who are now being wooed into believing
that IIS is a "next generation server" and that ASP is a revolutionary
invention. It's much easier to just give people ASP than to try to convince
them of the technical merits of various server-side authoring technologies.
I'm not praising ASP, believe me. It's simply a strategy issue in attempting
to create an Apache for NT which has appeal to both those knowledgable
about Apache as well as those who are not, which under NT will be the
majority of potential users.
Gary
------------------------------
Gary Wisniewski
Spider Eye Studios Pty. Ltd., Australia, +61 3 9415 6700
[Formerly GUI Online Productions]
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@lerdorf.on.ca>.
> p.s. For those unfamilar with ASP, here's a page which outputs ten lines
> in a ul list:
> <html>
> <body>
> <ul>
> <% For Counter = 1 to 10 %>
> <li>This is line number <%= Counter %>
> <% Next %>
> </ul>
> </body>
> </html>
>
> Looks familiar, eh?
Same thing in mod_php:
<html>
<body>
<ul>
<? $Counter=1; while($Counter <= 10)>
<li>This is line number <?echo $Counter>
<? endwhile>
</ul>
</body>
</html>
-Rasmus
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Gary Wisniewski <ga...@spidereye.com.au>.
>But perhaps we can change this. If we can make both mod_perl and mod_php
>perform well with Apache-NT and given that both have ODBC capabilities, it
>might make ASP support rather redundant. To me, it is more important that
>I can take a Unix web site and stick it on Apache-NT and have it work
>unchanged.
mod_perl won't help, since it's really just a faster way to write CGI scripts,
and ASP takes people away from writing CGI and embeds the language
within the HTML code. So, mod_php is a much closer comparison.
But, mod_php (no offense, please), doesn't stand a chance against the
Visual Basic Juggernaut, because VB is ubiquitous on the NT platform, and
is embedded in every Office 97 product. Soon Windows itself will have
it's own "csh equivalent" for administrative and control purposes based
upon VB. So, end-users, developers, sysadmins (a growing community
under NT) are all totally comfortable with ASP right now, and it will become
totally entrenched.
I don't think ASP needs to be in conflict with the notion of having Unix
Web sites transportable transparently to NT. I think it's just fills-in the
gaps and reduces the number of obstacles to Apache adoption under NT.
mod_php, mod_perl, etc. should also work on both platforms, so Unix
people can easily step into a world they know and love. But, trying to
convince the current ASP users to try something else is pointless, I'm afraid.
I'm not, by the way, arguing that ASP or VB are superior technologies.
That's a different discussion. I just know the market. Hopefully, the
presence
of technologies like PHP/FI, perl, and otherwise will at least dilute some
of the MS-entricity and give people more choices.
Gary
------
p.s. For those unfamilar with ASP, here's a page which outputs ten lines
in a ul list:
<html>
<body>
<ul>
<% For Counter = 1 to 10 %>
<li>This is line number <%= Counter %>
<% Next %>
</ul>
</body>
</html>
Looks familiar, eh?
------------------------------
Gary Wisniewski
Spider Eye Studios Pty. Ltd., Australia, +61 3 9415 6700
[Formerly GUI Online Productions]
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@lerdorf.on.ca>.
> Under NT, the predominant method of creating dynamic content
> is ASP. Other alternatives are really awful, and because of NT's
> heavy process model, Unix-born methods just don't perform
> or work well for lots of other reasons.
But perhaps we can change this. If we can make both mod_perl and mod_php
perform well with Apache-NT and given that both have ODBC capabilities, it
might make ASP support rather redundant. To me, it is more important that
I can take a Unix web site and stick it on Apache-NT and have it work
unchanged.
Not to say that I wouldn't like to harass Microsoft and support ASP, it
just seems like a rather daunting effort looking at the requirements.
-Rasmus
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Gary Wisniewski <ga...@spidereye.com.au>.
I think this will become a REAL ISSUE.
Under NT, the predominant method of creating dynamic content
is ASP. Other alternatives are really awful, and because of NT's
heavy process model, Unix-born methods just don't perform
or work well for lots of other reasons.
NT is a big market for Apache, and the majority of serious users
under NT will have lots of time invested in ASP.
ASP is implemented using the (extremely baroque) COM object
model (if you can stomach calling it an object model). But,
COM is simple, really, and it would be possible to:
a) create an ASP-compliant COM interface for Apache as
a module;
b) create a Unix COM interface for Apache which would work
identically.
In fact, with some care, it would be possible to assure that,
so long as people used Posix or stdio, their ASP code would
work just fine under both Unix and NT.
This isn't a trivial implementation, but if one or two people were
to jump on the bandwagon, I can help a lot with this, or maybe
take it on myself if it seems worthwhile.
The only real difficulty is what ASP imples. It takes Apache
directly into the middle of the Microsoft Technologies Frey,
where users will want to be able to get at IDispatch (object
scripting), SQL Server, etc. But, if the COM implementation in
Apache is properly done, these features should be things which
can be added by others. In fact, if the COM implementation is
right, there should be no reason why sites hosted with IIS,
ASP,. and VBScript couldn't run under Apache unchanged.
Microsoft probably wouldn't like this ... which is why it interests
me. :-)
Gary
------------------------------
Gary Wisniewski
Spider Eye Studios Pty. Ltd., Australia, +61 3 9415 6700
[Formerly GUI Online Productions]
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@lerdorf.on.ca>.
> Has anyone looked at what it might require to support Microsoft's
> ASP thingy in Apache?
No chance on Unix platforms.
On Apache-NT you might be able to do it.
Prerequisites: 1 lobotomy, divine intervention and a truckload of luck.
-Rasmus
Re: ASP support in Apache
Posted by Alexei Kosut <ak...@organic.com>.
On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Randy Terbush wrote:
> Has anyone looked at what it might require to support Microsoft's
> ASP thingy in Apache?
Yes, I spent a few minutes considering this the other day. Basically, it
would require a lot, as far as I can tell. ASP is a rather nifty concept,
in that it integrates HTML with inline scripting in a non-language
dependent way (i.e., you can use any scripting language that supports
ASP, although Visual Basic is the default), and lets objects from
different scripting langauges interact with each other.
However, it seems rather complex to implement. I'm not even sure it can
be done on a non-Windows platform; it makes use of ActiveX and other
Microsoft technologies, although I'm not sure how heavily.
However, even if ASP was rewritten for Apache, it would not mean that you
could drop ASP pages into your document root, and they would work, since
ASP requires "components", all of which, of course, are Windows-specific
thus far.
I suppose it might be feasible for the Windows Apache. Actually, what
might be a better solution is this: I've done some work on a module that
lets Apache load ISAPI extensions (and maybe ISAPI filters) on
Windows. It's possible that the ASP DLLs could be taken from IIS (which
is free) and dropped into Apache, in that case. However, it's equally
possible that ASP makes use of IIS in a way that is not part of the ISAPI
spec, and so would probably never work on a server that wasn't IIS or
PWS. I'd expect nothing less of Microsoft.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong. As I said, I only spent a few minutes
looking at the issue.
-- Alexei Kosut <ak...@organic.com>