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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> on 2006/04/27 22:51:49 UTC
Dear trolls...
Dear trolls,
Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing that people are reading, because...
Dear everyone else,
Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys are just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest way to make them go away. I have not and will not entertain them with any sort of response. I suggest you do the same.
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
I am not sure if I want you to walk up to me and say: "Would you sign my
copy of Catcher in the Rye please?"
You do have it, don't you?
.V
Dakota Jack wrote:
> This is silly, whomever you are.
>
> On 5/3/06, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
>> "and that is why you will kill me last"?
>>
>> :-0
>>
>> .V
>>
>>
>>
>> Dakota Jack wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > At least you are civil. That part is good.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
This is silly, whomever you are.
On 5/3/06, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
> "and that is why you will kill me last"?
>
> :-0
>
> .V
>
>
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
> >
> > At least you are civil. That part is good.
> >
> >
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
"and that is why you will kill me last"?
:-0
.V
Dakota Jack wrote:
>
> At least you are civil. That part is good.
>
>
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for this advice. No one has ever mentioned this before. I
remamber someone else talking about code like itches and scratches. I
think that has been repeated so many times the itch must be confused
with a tickle.
If you like this idea, go at it. Obviously suggesting what someone
else should like to do is really stupid. I think other people can
find their own course. Now if you had something to actually say about
an issue someone cared about, that would help.
At least you are civil. That part is good.
On 5/2/06, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
> If there is an itch for anyone, they can easily go to sf.net, pick a
> license they like, and implement an enlightened design.
>
> I believe that even if they want to check out any source of Struts
> module, and refactor it under ASF license, that is legal too.
>
> It it's not an itch, then it must not be important to anyone.
>
> hth,
> .V
>
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > What is amazing to me is that the people who are called "trolls" are
> > only those in some way contrary to the status quo. Others in favor of
> > the status quo who do nothing but use invective and display 10 year
> > old conduct are never mentioned.
>
> > They are used by the powers that be to attack without any
> > point dissidents. This is really an open source Gulag Apache.
> >
>
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
Then .... you are saying that a different approach would not be popular?
So to restate it, what is going here is popular. Oh good. Last thing I
want is something strange.
Life just anint' fair, is it now.
Maybe you are imagining that you hired some of the people on this list,
and that they would work for you and then you could draw something on
the board, and they would be willing to implement it. A big salary they
get I imagine.
Let me tell you a true story: I had a client draw something on a board
for me. I said I was going to the bathroom; took my car keys... and took
the elevator instead. I did not return their calls.
So how desperate would these qualified people have to be you think?
If they enjoy their work, great for us. If that means they want to work
in a certain way... I guess deal with it or don't.
.V
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
Granted, you can always fork off your own
> version of Struts and work on it somewhere else, but the point is that
> it will only get a very small fraction of the attention and usage of the
> canonical version on struts.apache.org.
>
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
netsql wrote:
> If there is an itch for anyone, they can easily go to sf.net, pick a
> license they like, and implement an enlightened design.
This argument is trotted out quite frequently here, but it really begs
the question in my opinion. Granted, you can always fork off your own
version of Struts and work on it somewhere else, but the point is that
it will only get a very small fraction of the attention and usage of the
canonical version on struts.apache.org.
You can't really understand what is going on here without taking into
consideration that basic mechanism -- let's call it the "Apache effect".
Suppose you're a moderately talented developer. You know that any work
you do that is labelled as Apache Struts something-or-other is going to
get a huge amount of attention and usage -- almost completely
independently of its quality. You also know that if you put the exact
same work (or even something better) on sourceforge or your own website,
it will basically be ignored.
It is only by reference to this phenomenon that one can make any sense
of the so-called Struts-Webwork "merger". On pure technical grounds,
simply the goal of improving on an already superior framework, the
Webwork people have basically zero reason to "merge" with Struts. While
it's true that they get some more developer manpower, AFAICS that plus
is more than offset by all the extra procedures and bureaucracy that
they have to bother with as an ASF project. I think it's clear that
their motivations are purely nontechnical. By relabelling their work
"Apache Struts" something or other, they hope to get a much larger
public for their work.
This whole "Apache effect" really is a gravy train of sorts. It isn't
IMO a situation that the insiders really engineered. This overvaluing of
the Apache brand is some kind of market bubble that has developed. But,
from the point of view of an open source hacker, it's a gravy train. You
can write some code and put it up somewhere and a few dozen people end
up downloading it and trying it. If you can put it up here and call it
"Struts something or other", literally thousands of people will try it
at least. While it is conjecture, I think that, it is reasonable to
suppose that in the latter case, the exact same work will receive
literally 100 times as much attention and usage. (That may actually be a
conservative estimate.)
Now, think about it. When you've got something this good going for you,
are you going to let other people in on it too easily? (Of course not.)
So, a lot of what you observe here is people (insiders) protecting their
(virtual) turf. And you see outsiders basically questioning the
insiders' right to exclusive use of that "turf".
So, to say that an outsider is always free to go off somewhere and fork
the code is to beg the question entirely. Of course they are, but that's
not what's at issue.
> I believe that even if they want to check out any source of Struts
> module, and refactor it under ASF license, that is legal too.
True. However, one question: do you think that, by saying this, you are
telling people something they don't know?
But let's think about what you're proposing for a sec. There is this
whole attempt to redefine reality whereby Struts is not a product but an
umbrella housing 3 completely separate products, Struts Action 1, Struts
Action 2, and Struts Shale. However, the latter 2 are just completely
separate things that are getting labelled as "Struts something or other"
to benefit from the brand-name projection. The only thing that *really*
is "Struts" historically is Struts 1.x.
So, let's say that somebody like Frank Zammetti, who wants to develop
the Struts 1.x codebase further, goes off to sourceforge, and starts a
project to move that codebase forward. He can't call what he does
"Apache Struts" and of course, cannot benefit from any of the Struts
brand name projection.
Meanwhile, Craig and other want to work on Shale. Ted and Craig and the
existing Webwork team want to work on Webwork. None of the Struts
insiders want to do any further work on the existing Struts codebase. At
least nothing significant. In this scenario, the person who is willing
and able to carry on work on the product that really is Struts cannot
benefit from the Struts brand name projection, but the people who have
no interest in carrying on work on Struts get the benefit of that for
projects that really have nothing to do with the Struts project. (Of
course, they redefine the Struts project as being whatever they want to
work on now, but is that really legitimate?)
Note that none of this is really community-driven. (At least if
community is defined to include all the people with a stake in the
Struts 1.x code.) Did anybody try to ask the Struts 1.x users whether
they were in favor of abandoning further development on Struts 1.x?
I can't help but think that if you actually asked them, most would
answer in the negative. Surely, they would, because, how can they lose?
If Frank Z. and other collaborators develop an enhanced version of
Struts 1.x, they could still stick to whatever version they were using,
right? The presence of more development on 1.x is, in the absolutely
worst case, a +0 for them.
>
> It it's not an itch, then it must not be important to anyone.
I think that conclusion is quite faulty. One thing that I have concluded
is that there are a significant number of people who want Struts 1.x
development to be carried on. Some of those people are even quite
willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work.
In terms of basic open source ideals as I have come to understand them,
there is simply no justification for preventing people like Frank Z. or
possibly Phil Zoio and others from carrying on work on Struts (I mean,
the 1.x codebase) if none of the insiders are interested in doing so.
Again, getting back to this whole idea you mention that anybody with an
"itch" could fork off a separate version, well.... under what
circumstances does this usually occur in the open source world?
If someone who wants to work on the FreeMarker codebase, for example,
has very very different ideas about how the product should evolve from
me and the other project admins, it might be necessary for them to fork
off a separate version in order to work on those ideas. However, I think
that assumes that the insiders also have plans to carry on development
of the product. If the current insiders have no plans to do anything,
and somembody else wants to come in and do something, why should the
outsiders have to fork off a separate version? If we have lost interest
in doing anything, why should we hang around and be obstructionist? We
might as well just pass on the flame to the people who want to do
something. In my considered view, that is how open source projects
*should* work.
The problem in this Struts case is that the "Apache effect" I mentioned
above. I referred to this overvaluing of the Apache brand as a kind of
market bubble that has developed. A characteristic of a market bubble is
that it creates certain perverse incentives. (Just look at some of the
nuttiness that occurred in the dot-com boom as an example.) And this
leads to strange things: in this case, people who don't want to continue
work on Struts won't pass the flame to the people who want to continue
working on it. So they redefine the stuff they want to work on (Webwork,
Shale, whatever...) as being Struts. And a supremely perverse aspect of
this is that the people who want to continue development on Struts (when
the insiders don't) are being told to go "fork off" a non-canonical version.
This branch of the discussion, where we were talking about meritocracy,
this was because ASF is supposedly based on the idea that open source
projects are a meritocracy. The people with more "merit" run the show.
And this is a real problem, when these people start talking about the
so-called "Apache Way". The Apache Way is a rather nebulous thing, mind
you, but one thing it is clearly supposed to be is a meritocracy. When
their stewardship of the project over the last several years has had
such dismal technical results, surely some of the logic of meritocracy
should kick in and they should have to step aside and let people with
some gumption to move things forward have their crack.
When people retain their position and power based on incumbency,
independently of how poor their performance has been, you obviously
don't have a meritocracy.
And the logic of this is actually inescapable, it seems. If you don't
have a meritocracy, you're not following the Apache Way.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> hth,
> .V
>
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
>> What is amazing to me is that the people who are called "trolls" are
>> only those in some way contrary to the status quo. Others in favor of
>> the status quo who do nothing but use invective and display 10 year
>> old conduct are never mentioned.
>
>
>> They are used by the powers that be to attack without any
>> point dissidents. This is really an open source Gulag Apache.
>>
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
If there is an itch for anyone, they can easily go to sf.net, pick a
license they like, and implement an enlightened design.
I believe that even if they want to check out any source of Struts
module, and refactor it under ASF license, that is legal too.
It it's not an itch, then it must not be important to anyone.
hth,
.V
Dakota Jack wrote:
> What is amazing to me is that the people who are called "trolls" are
> only those in some way contrary to the status quo. Others in favor of
> the status quo who do nothing but use invective and display 10 year
> old conduct are never mentioned.
> They are used by the powers that be to attack without any
> point dissidents. This is really an open source Gulag Apache.
>
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
What is amazing to me is that the people who are called "trolls" are
only those in some way contrary to the status quo. Others in favor of
the status quo who do nothing but use invective and display 10 year
old conduct are never mentioned. The worst they get is a little slap
from Ted saying "Don't do that in my name", for which he deserves some
respect. The truth, however, is that they are the only real trolls on
this list. They are used by the powers that be to attack without any
point dissidents. This is really an open source Gulag Apache.
On 5/1/06, Paul Speed <ps...@progeeks.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > Paul Speed wrote:
> >>
> >> Of course, there is a difference between polite discourse and
> >> trolling. I think we all know who the real trolls are and I think the
> >> term has been leveled a little heavy-handed lately. I think the
> >> bottom line is that if someone doesn't use the product, doesn't like
> >> the product, doesn't like any of the people who work on the product,
> >> frequently finds themselves always disagreeing with everyone else on
> >> the list then maybe it is time for them to find another place to argue.
> >
> > Well, I think the above begs the question. In terms of certain comments
> > I have made, and questions I have posed, look, we all know that *only*
> > an outsider to this project would ever say those things. This is
> > particularly true in situations where the insiders are largely chosen on
> > the basis of them being people who won't rock the boat.
> >
> > So, I mean to say, that if an insider won't say certain things (because
> > they just won't) and an outsider is not supposed to say certain things
> > (because it's somehow improper) you're basically saying that *nobody*
> > should say certain things.
> >
> > IOW, nobody should make certain pointed comments or ask certain hard
> > questions.
> >
> > BUT... if the questions and comments are legitimate, it seems that they
> > should not be off-limits, they should be asked. By somebody....
> >
> > Now, OTOH, if your position is that certain comments or questions are
> > illegitimate, you should be able to explain why. But that should be
> > independent of who is making the comment or asking the question...
> >
>
> My position is that there is a difference between discussing a topic and
> being blatently insulting. Certain people tend to use a sort of style
> that implies that to disagree with them automatically means that you are
> stupid... and follow it up with some sort of twisted proof by induction
> that you are stupid because you don't agree with them. For example, I
> could have answered that way (politely) or the following way which is
> how one frequent poster who keeps threatening to leave tends to approach
> a discussion.
>
> Example of bad manners version of response, do not adopt this style: ;)
> "Obviously I didn't mean what you say. Anyone with a half a brain can
> see that there is a difference between polite discourse and trolling."
>
> Note: no real argument content added. Blatently "superior" attitude.
> Implied assumption that simply stating that a different point of view is
> stupid means that it requires no additional discussion. Read useless
> responses like that about 50 times and it really starts to grate.
>
> -Paul
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Paul Speed <ps...@progeeks.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Paul Speed wrote:
>>
>> Of course, there is a difference between polite discourse and
>> trolling. I think we all know who the real trolls are and I think the
>> term has been leveled a little heavy-handed lately. I think the
>> bottom line is that if someone doesn't use the product, doesn't like
>> the product, doesn't like any of the people who work on the product,
>> frequently finds themselves always disagreeing with everyone else on
>> the list then maybe it is time for them to find another place to argue.
>
> Well, I think the above begs the question. In terms of certain comments
> I have made, and questions I have posed, look, we all know that *only*
> an outsider to this project would ever say those things. This is
> particularly true in situations where the insiders are largely chosen on
> the basis of them being people who won't rock the boat.
>
> So, I mean to say, that if an insider won't say certain things (because
> they just won't) and an outsider is not supposed to say certain things
> (because it's somehow improper) you're basically saying that *nobody*
> should say certain things.
>
> IOW, nobody should make certain pointed comments or ask certain hard
> questions.
>
> BUT... if the questions and comments are legitimate, it seems that they
> should not be off-limits, they should be asked. By somebody....
>
> Now, OTOH, if your position is that certain comments or questions are
> illegitimate, you should be able to explain why. But that should be
> independent of who is making the comment or asking the question...
>
My position is that there is a difference between discussing a topic and
being blatently insulting. Certain people tend to use a sort of style
that implies that to disagree with them automatically means that you are
stupid... and follow it up with some sort of twisted proof by induction
that you are stupid because you don't agree with them. For example, I
could have answered that way (politely) or the following way which is
how one frequent poster who keeps threatening to leave tends to approach
a discussion.
Example of bad manners version of response, do not adopt this style: ;)
"Obviously I didn't mean what you say. Anyone with a half a brain can
see that there is a difference between polite discourse and trolling."
Note: no real argument content added. Blatently "superior" attitude.
Implied assumption that simply stating that a different point of view is
stupid means that it requires no additional discussion. Read useless
responses like that about 50 times and it really starts to grate.
-Paul
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Paul Speed wrote:
>
>
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
>> On 4/27/06, Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Dear trolls,
>>>> Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of
>>>> actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing
>>>> that people are reading, because...
>>>>
>>>> Dear everyone else,
>>>> Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys
>>>> are just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest
>>>> way to make them go away. I have not and will not entertain them
>>>> with any sort of response. I suggest you do the same.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't have a problem with this except for one thought that
>> crossed my mind as I read it: one person's troll is another's
>> crusader. I'm sure the King of England viewed the first Continental
>> Congress as a bunch of trolls before the revolution happened :)
>>
>> I would hope everyone around here is mature and professional enough to
>> withstand criticism and not reject out-of-hand those ideas that do not
>> immediately jive with your own.
>>
>> You *always* have the choice whether to read someone's posts or not.
>> You *always* have the choice whether to reply or not. Filters are
>> easy to set up, or it only takes a fraction of a second to delete
>> someones' posts (or an entire thread if it doesn't interest you).
>> There are many times where I simply ignore some topic, or some person,
>> when I don't wish to be bothered. But I *never* want to be in a
>> situation where someone can't say what they want freely. That would
>> be far, far worse than any "troll" ever could be IMO.
>
>
> Of course, there is a difference between polite discourse and trolling.
> I think we all know who the real trolls are and I think the term has
> been leveled a little heavy-handed lately. I think the bottom line is
> that if someone doesn't use the product, doesn't like the product,
> doesn't like any of the people who work on the product, frequently finds
> themselves always disagreeing with everyone else on the list then maybe
> it is time for them to find another place to argue.
Well, I think the above begs the question. In terms of certain comments
I have made, and questions I have posed, look, we all know that *only*
an outsider to this project would ever say those things. This is
particularly true in situations where the insiders are largely chosen on
the basis of them being people who won't rock the boat.
So, I mean to say, that if an insider won't say certain things (because
they just won't) and an outsider is not supposed to say certain things
(because it's somehow improper) you're basically saying that *nobody*
should say certain things.
IOW, nobody should make certain pointed comments or ask certain hard
questions.
BUT... if the questions and comments are legitimate, it seems that they
should not be off-limits, they should be asked. By somebody....
Now, OTOH, if your position is that certain comments or questions are
illegitimate, you should be able to explain why. But that should be
independent of who is making the comment or asking the question...
>
> Also, you bring up a good point because those of us who have a person
> filtered into dev/null don't even have to read the messages unless
> somebody responds. So stop responding! :)
>
> As mentioned earlier, I've been reading these lists for six or seven
> years or something and always enjoyed the high signal to noise ratio.
Well, it is fairly clear to me that the culture you describe so
nostalgically has not been good at maintaining any forward technical
progress. Maybe, just maybe, this is because a culture where people all
nicely agree with one another is inherently kind of sterile, and nothing
new or innovative tends to emerge from such an environment.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> Lately it's been ridiculous.
>
> -Paul
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Paul Speed <ps...@progeeks.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> On 4/27/06, Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> wrote:
>
>>> Dear trolls,
>>> Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of
>>> actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing
>>> that people are reading, because...
>>>
>>> Dear everyone else,
>>> Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys
>>> are just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest
>>> way to make them go away. I have not and will not entertain them with
>>> any sort of response. I suggest you do the same.
>
>
> I wouldn't have a problem with this except for one thought that crossed
> my mind as I read it: one person's troll is another's crusader. I'm
> sure the King of England viewed the first Continental Congress as a
> bunch of trolls before the revolution happened :)
>
> I would hope everyone around here is mature and professional enough to
> withstand criticism and not reject out-of-hand those ideas that do not
> immediately jive with your own.
>
> You *always* have the choice whether to read someone's posts or not. You
> *always* have the choice whether to reply or not. Filters are easy to
> set up, or it only takes a fraction of a second to delete someones'
> posts (or an entire thread if it doesn't interest you). There are many
> times where I simply ignore some topic, or some person, when I don't
> wish to be bothered. But I *never* want to be in a situation where
> someone can't say what they want freely. That would be far, far worse
> than any "troll" ever could be IMO.
Of course, there is a difference between polite discourse and trolling.
I think we all know who the real trolls are and I think the term has
been leveled a little heavy-handed lately. I think the bottom line is
that if someone doesn't use the product, doesn't like the product,
doesn't like any of the people who work on the product, frequently finds
themselves always disagreeing with everyone else on the list then maybe
it is time for them to find another place to argue.
Also, you bring up a good point because those of us who have a person
filtered into dev/null don't even have to read the messages unless
somebody responds. So stop responding! :)
As mentioned earlier, I've been reading these lists for six or seven
years or something and always enjoyed the high signal to noise ratio.
Lately it's been ridiculous.
-Paul
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> On 4/27/06, Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> wrote:
>
>>> Dear trolls,
>>> Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of
>>> actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing
>>> that people are reading, because...
>>>
>>> Dear everyone else,
>>> Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys
>>> are just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest
>>> way to make them go away. I have not and will not entertain them with
>>> any sort of response. I suggest you do the same.
>
>
> I wouldn't have a problem with this except for one thought that crossed
> my mind as I read it: one person's troll is another's crusader.
Yes, actually, this point has come up enough that it is the very first
thing mentioned in subsection on usage of the term in the wikipedia
entry on "Internet Trolls". See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Trolls#Usage
"The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a
post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate
contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often
used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument ad
hominem...."
The term "ad hominem" is hyperlinked. Specifically, the usage part is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Usage
and that is:
"An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is
wrong and/or they are wrong to argue at all purely because of something
discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited
by them rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself...."
In other words, an extremely commonplace use of the term "troll" in
internet forums (the very first usage mentioned in the wikipedia article
on trolls) is as part of an ad hominem fallacy. "Don't talk to that guy,
he's a troll" when the person is saying things that challenge a given
orthodoxy or hierarchy.
This does seem to be what is happening here.
> I'm
> sure the King of England viewed the first Continental Congress as a
> bunch of trolls before the revolution happened :)
Well, he would have had some other pejorative term(s) for them. But in
general, your point is well taken: people with strong opinions who
expound a consistent set of views in good faith are not trolls. That's
not what the term means.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> I would hope everyone around here is mature and professional enough to
> withstand criticism and not reject out-of-hand those ideas that do not
> immediately jive with your own.
>
> You *always* have the choice whether to read someone's posts or not. You
> *always* have the choice whether to reply or not. Filters are easy to
> set up, or it only takes a fraction of a second to delete someones'
> posts (or an entire thread if it doesn't interest you). There are many
> times where I simply ignore some topic, or some person, when I don't
> wish to be bothered. But I *never* want to be in a situation where
> someone can't say what they want freely. That would be far, far worse
> than any "troll" ever could be IMO.
>
> Frank
>
> (P.S., while I have your attention Patrick, thanks for Webwork in
> Action! Excellent introduction to WW!)
>
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On 4/27/06, Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> wrote:
>> Dear trolls,
>> Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing that people are reading, because...
>>
>> Dear everyone else,
>> Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys are just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest way to make them go away. I have not and will not entertain them with any sort of response. I suggest you do the same.
I wouldn't have a problem with this except for one thought that crossed
my mind as I read it: one person's troll is another's crusader. I'm
sure the King of England viewed the first Continental Congress as a
bunch of trolls before the revolution happened :)
I would hope everyone around here is mature and professional enough to
withstand criticism and not reject out-of-hand those ideas that do not
immediately jive with your own.
You *always* have the choice whether to read someone's posts or not.
You *always* have the choice whether to reply or not. Filters are easy
to set up, or it only takes a fraction of a second to delete someones'
posts (or an entire thread if it doesn't interest you). There are many
times where I simply ignore some topic, or some person, when I don't
wish to be bothered. But I *never* want to be in a situation where
someone can't say what they want freely. That would be far, far worse
than any "troll" ever could be IMO.
Frank
(P.S., while I have your attention Patrick, thanks for Webwork in
Action! Excellent introduction to WW!)
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
LIke Pogo, Warner, you are the troll.
On 4/27/06, Daniel Warner <wh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am sorry to have bothered you, Patrick. I am well aware of who they
> are and how they work. I knew what would happen when I responded;
> ignorance is not my problem. I just couldn't resist. Bad
> self-control day. This happens when things get slow around my office.
> I was just having a little fun and hoping the productive people on
> the list would skip the posts and ignore them. I probably should have
> prefixed them with [friday] or something. I really did not mean to
> entice one of you to respond! I will let the cute little trolls
> starve from here on out.
>
> Daniel Warner,
> generic lurker and ex-troll feeder
>
> On 4/27/06, Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> wrote:
> > Dear trolls,
> > Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of
> actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing that
> people are reading, because...
> >
> > Dear everyone else,
> > Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys are
> just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest way to make
> them go away. I have not and will not entertain them with any sort of
> response. I suggest you do the same.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Posted via Jive Forums
> >
> http://forums.opensymphony.com/thread.jspa?threadID=28320&messageID=55091#55091
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Dear trolls...
Posted by Daniel Warner <wh...@gmail.com>.
I am sorry to have bothered you, Patrick. I am well aware of who they
are and how they work. I knew what would happen when I responded;
ignorance is not my problem. I just couldn't resist. Bad
self-control day. This happens when things get slow around my office.
I was just having a little fun and hoping the productive people on
the list would skip the posts and ignore them. I probably should have
prefixed them with [friday] or something. I really did not mean to
entice one of you to respond! I will let the cute little trolls
starve from here on out.
Daniel Warner,
generic lurker and ex-troll feeder
On 4/27/06, Patrick Lightbody <fo...@opensymphony.com> wrote:
> Dear trolls,
> Please go. Or at least try to form your rambling in to some sort of actionable suggestion. But don't just bitch for the sake of knowing that people are reading, because...
>
> Dear everyone else,
> Please stop reading or replying to the trolls. Seriously. You guys are just as bad for feeding the trolls. Ignoring them is the fastest way to make them go away. I have not and will not entertain them with any sort of response. I suggest you do the same.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted via Jive Forums
> http://forums.opensymphony.com/thread.jspa?threadID=28320&messageID=55091#55091
>
>
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>
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