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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> on 2003/09/17 15:14:34 UTC
[VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
On 17 Sep 2003 12:34:19 -0000
(Subject: cvs commit: incubator STATUS)
coar@apache.org wrote:
> +1. Jim Jagieski has announced his intention to step down as chair
> + of the incubator project. A new chair needs to be selected.
> + Current nominees are listed below; feel free to vote here in a
> + non-binding way:
> +
> + Nicola Ken Barozzi
> + Ken Coar
You two, "Ken"s, have you decided to settle down to business
of Incubator Chair, already?
IIRC, Paul Hammant has also nominated himself for it. So:
== VOTE == == == == (CUT HERE) == == ==
I'd like to put my sincere plus one as the New Chair of
the Apache Incubator Project To
[ ] Nicola Ken Barozzi
[ ] Ken Coar
[ ] Paul Hammant
My Status :
[ ] Incubator PMC/Committer
[ ] Non-Binding ... The ASF Committer
[ ] Non-Committer ... but I've wanted to put my opinions!
P.S. I really appreciate your works, Jim!
== == == == == == == == == == == == == ==
Note:
"Who is Nicola Ken Barozzi?"
... http://www.apache.org/~nicolaken/
... http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
"Who is Ken Coar?"
... http://www.apache.org/~coar/
... http://ken.coar.org/
"Who is Paul Hammant?"
... http://www.apache.org/~hammant/
... http://www.thoughtworks.com/
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
P.S. Could you (someone) please make me a committer of
Incubator Project? ;-)
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 06:27 PM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:29:16 -0400
> (Subject: Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS))
> Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I think it would be almost obscenely ironic
>> if the Incubator, which is designed to help ensure the "Apache
>> Way" in building communities and projects, has a PMC structure
>> which is totally unique within the ASF.
>
> "obscenely ironic"?? .. oh, really? Don't you think it is *the best
> practice*?
>
>
No, I don't actually. One reason is that it goes against the
whole core idea that the "power base" if we want to call it
that, rests with the PMC Chairs (or co-chairs or whatever)
rather than the actual PMC members themselves. The PMC
Chair is not some sort of king or dictator or even
President. He/she doesn't make decisions "for" the PMC.
Saying that we need more people with "power" implies
a large variance of power between PMC members and the
chair, which is not the case. In effect, ALL PMC
members are vice-Chairs.
The fact that there are PMC members who aren't strongly
motivated or active does not mean that we somehow need
a PMC Chair to "take everything over". It means the PMC
itself needs to be scrubbed, people-wise. People get spread
too thin and trick themselves into thinking that they can
do adequate jobs when the simple truth is that they
can't.
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:29:16 -0400
(Subject: Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS))
Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Personally, I think it would be almost obscenely ironic
> if the Incubator, which is designed to help ensure the "Apache
> Way" in building communities and projects, has a PMC structure
> which is totally unique within the ASF.
"obscenely ironic"?? .. oh, really? Don't you think it is *the best
practice*?
--
If Incubator PMC would like to keep the style of the other PMC,
I think it will be soon proven to be in failure.
Apache Incubator Project (AIP) has peculiar (really peculiar) value
and raison d'^etre in its existence. Please compare to the other top
level project!
1. AIP is better to fulfill the other TLP's needs. Should watch
what is ***-TLP and the constituent members of other communitites.
2. AIP do not have its own codes, which last within it forever.
3. AIP is very young and people do not have experience enough.
4. In AIP (In my observation), people who can "manage" people
, "manage" source codes and "guide" people into right direction
would be ( = should be ) appreciated compared to the people who
can only "develop" souce codes.
5. AIP is better to consist of the people who have know-hows on
community building, not just "ANT building" ;-)
6. Incubator PMC members are ****very*** busy and devoting to other
daily works
(fighting against spammic mails, egos seen in other TLP PMCs, etc.),
so, they can not pay much attention to the Incubation works;
Nevertheless, AIP should satisfy many needs from various fields.
--
I think "Apache Incubator Project itself is now under incubation and
fumbling around the best *Apache Way*" statement would be very
easy on the "my" ear.
Cheers,
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Personally, I think it would be almost obscenely ironic
> if the Incubator, which is designed to help ensure the "Apache
> Way" in building communities and projects, has a PMC structure
> which is totally unique within the ASF.
?? you mean the chix and valences bit? or the 'vice chair x n'?
irony indeed. :-)
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
Personally, I think it would be almost obscenely ironic
if the Incubator, which is designed to help ensure the "Apache
Way" in building communities and projects, has a PMC structure
which is totally unique within the ASF.
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@ThoughtWorks.net>.
In <shameless-plug>ThoughtWorks</shameless-plug> we try to pair (no need
to introduce XP is there?) on as much as possible... works well. It can
even work distributed.
- ph
>Hi,
>
>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:51:13 +0200
>"Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>I thought the same thing. Also, to tell the truth, I think that
>>>in Incubator, there need at least two or three persons who
>>>have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>Why would we need more people with 'real power'? Or, more importantly,
>>what powers do you see that others should be able to wield aswell?
>>
>>
>
>I've just implied :)
>the "check and balance" deterrent
>as well as
>the propelling *energy*
>for the Incubator project in open and good manner.
>
>The number "3" would be also nice. Eastern cultures would
>prefer to use this number ;-) [OT].
>
>
--
http://www.thoughtworks.com -> The art of heavy lifting.
Home for many Agile practicing, Open Source activists...
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:51:13 +0200
"Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I thought the same thing. Also, to tell the truth, I think that
> > in Incubator, there need at least two or three persons who
> > have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
> Why would we need more people with 'real power'? Or, more importantly,
> what powers do you see that others should be able to wield aswell?
I've just implied :)
the "check and balance" deterrent
as well as
the propelling *energy*
for the Incubator project in open and good manner.
The number "3" would be also nice. Eastern cultures would
prefer to use this number ;-) [OT].
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
...
>>Ok, name games aside, I honestly don't know if Ken or Nicola Ken have any
>>substantively different views on what should happen with Incubator.
From what I gather, Ken Coar is probably the one on the Incubator PMC
that has more similar views to mine. On the whole though, there are no
real big differences, just normal discussions about practical issues.
What should happen with the Incubator is already decided by the board
when they appointed us. We "just" have to make that happen.
> I thought the same thing. Also, to tell the truth, I think that
> in Incubator, there need at least two or three persons who
> have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
In practice it's the PMC that has the real power. Of course, the chair
could, in theory, singlehandedly make decisions, but I doubt that the
board will let that happen if not strictly necessary. ;-)
So the chair is also there to ensure that the PMC works collectively,
and responds to Apache needs; these are are gather implicitly on the
lists, and explicitly by the board, to whom he has to report.
...
> I think that even though one of these three persons will have been
> elected as a PMC chair, the rest two should be recommended to become
> something special ...
As I see it, this PMC is already composed of /special/ people.
:-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Mr. Ken Coar is rather HTTPD/ApacheCon oriented person.
> Mr. Nicola Ken Barozzi is rather Jakarta/XML/Cocoon oriented person.
> Mr. Paul Hammant is rather Jakarta/Avalon oriented person.
There are some cultural differences that ought to be discussed, understood,
and made use of, but I don't see that as a PMC Chair issue.
> I think that even though one of these three persons will have been
> elected as a PMC chair, the rest two should be recommended to become
> something special
Hmmm ... I am wondering if we have a cultural thing happening here. Are you
seeing this as the Chair winning, and the others losing face? Is that why
you want to make sure that they are recognized, too?
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 9/18/2003 10:38 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>I think that in Incubator, there need at least two or three
>>>persons who have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
>>>
>>>
>
>I think we need people on the PMC who are doing the work, not expecting
>Chairs and Vice Chairs to do things for them. The people who work on the
>PMC, and in the projects, are the ones with "real power" except in the legal
>sense of binding the Foundation. There are certain actions reserved for the
>PMC Chair, but they are not part of the day-to-day operations.
>
>
>
I was the XML PMC chair for 2 years. And exactly 1 time did I exercise
a special power, and that was to expand the PMC so more people could help.
>The PMC Chair should not have to delegate. That implies that the Chair has
>tasks to do that need to be delegated. The few tasks that the Chair needs
>to do, it should do. If things aren't getting done otherwise, it means that
>people aren't pro-actively stepping up to do *their* job after volunteering
>to help.
>
>
>
+1
>What the Incubator needs is a PMC rowing in the same direction, and a
>scalable process for incubation.
>
>
>
+2
Ted
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > I think that in Incubator, there need at least two or three
> > persons who have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
I think we need people on the PMC who are doing the work, not expecting
Chairs and Vice Chairs to do things for them. The people who work on the
PMC, and in the projects, are the ones with "real power" except in the legal
sense of binding the Foundation. There are certain actions reserved for the
PMC Chair, but they are not part of the day-to-day operations.
The PMC Chair should not have to delegate. That implies that the Chair has
tasks to do that need to be delegated. The few tasks that the Chair needs
to do, it should do. If things aren't getting done otherwise, it means that
people aren't pro-actively stepping up to do *their* job after volunteering
to help.
What the Incubator needs is a PMC rowing in the same direction, and a
scalable process for incubation.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 09:17 AM, Sander Striker wrote:
>> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:jim@jagunet.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:07 PM
>
>> I really hate to keep harping on this, but the whole
>> idea of the PMC Chair having "power" somehow implies that
>> the PMC itself is under the "whim" of the Chair. Yes, the
>> chair has the ultimate responsibility for the PMC, since
>> the board has delegated their authority to him/her. Yet
>> the PMC would gripe and complain if the board "told them"
>> how to operate. If people are looking for some
>> PMC Chair authority figure to "do things" for them so
>> they can follow lemming-like wherever he/she says, then
>> I'm glad I'm resigning as chair, because that's not
>> *my* vision. And it's certainly not been my experience
>> with any other PMC I've been on.
>
> This was exactly why I asked. I was wondering what "powers"
> people see that a Chair has that are so important others need
> them too.
>
> IMO, a Chair that puts himself above the rest of the PMC is
> doing a poor job. It's more about serving and responsibility
> than being in control.
>
Agreed 100% and I know that's what you were saying. I quoted
the whole message to give the full flavor and not to
imply anything else. It wasn't in response to your
message, but more a follow-on :)
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:jim@jagunet.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:07 PM
> I really hate to keep harping on this, but the whole
> idea of the PMC Chair having "power" somehow implies that
> the PMC itself is under the "whim" of the Chair. Yes, the
> chair has the ultimate responsibility for the PMC, since
> the board has delegated their authority to him/her. Yet
> the PMC would gripe and complain if the board "told them"
> how to operate. If people are looking for some
> PMC Chair authority figure to "do things" for them so
> they can follow lemming-like wherever he/she says, then
> I'm glad I'm resigning as chair, because that's not
> *my* vision. And it's certainly not been my experience
> with any other PMC I've been on.
This was exactly why I asked. I was wondering what "powers"
people see that a Chair has that are so important others need
them too.
IMO, a Chair that puts himself above the rest of the PMC is
doing a poor job. It's more about serving and responsibility
than being in control.
Sander
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 08:51 AM, Sander Striker wrote:
>> From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:tetsuya@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:09 AM
>
> [...]
>> I thought the same thing. Also, to tell the truth, I think that
>> in Incubator, there need at least two or three persons who
>> have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
>
> Why would we need more people with 'real power'? Or, more importantly,
> what powers do you see that others should be able to wield aswell?
>
>
:/
I really hate to keep harping on this, but the whole
idea of the PMC Chair having "power" somehow implies that
the PMC itself is under the "whim" of the Chair. Yes, the
chair has the ultimate responsibility for the PMC, since
the board has delegated their authority to him/her. Yet
the PMC would gripe and complain if the board "told them"
how to operate. If people are looking for some
PMC Chair authority figure to "do things" for them so
they can follow lemming-like wherever he/she says, then
I'm glad I'm resigning as chair, because that's not
*my* vision. And it's certainly not been my experience
with any other PMC I've been on.
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:tetsuya@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:09 AM
[...]
> I thought the same thing. Also, to tell the truth, I think that
> in Incubator, there need at least two or three persons who
> have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
Why would we need more people with 'real power'? Or, more importantly,
what powers do you see that others should be able to wield aswell?
Sander
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:18:16 -0400
(Subject: RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS))
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> I think that Nicola Ken Coar would do a fine job as PMC Chair. ;-)
;-)
> Ok, name games aside, I honestly don't know if Ken or Nicola Ken have any
> substantively different views on what should happen with Incubator. If they
> think so, I would be interested to hear them. Generally, I think that
> either Ken or Nicola Ken would do a fine job as PMC Chair. One question is
> whom has more time to devote.
I thought the same thing. Also, to tell the truth, I think that
in Incubator, there need at least two or three persons who
have real power. (One Chair and two Vice Chair?)
Incubator Project should succeed to measure up to everyone's
expectations (people from various top level projects),
however, I think there are many hurdles for them
to accomplish.
For example,
Mr. Ken Coar is rather HTTPD/ApacheCon oriented person.
Mr. Nicola Ken Barozzi is rather Jakarta/XML/Cocoon oriented person.
Mr. Paul Hammant is rather Jakarta/Avalon oriented person.
(IIRC ... correct it, please)
Willy-nilly, these "experienced-cultures" would cast a long shadow over
their activities in Apache.org, and I think it could be *inevitable*.
-- There is not *one* "Apache Way" --
I think that even though one of these three persons will have been
elected as a PMC chair, the rest two should be recommended to become
something special ... ah... ##vice-chair## or something like it.
(I want to mean, ... It would be a waste of their talents if
the rest of two persons would remain *only* one of PMC members in
Incubator project)
Hope this (above) would be considered well. Thank you for listening.
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@ThoughtWorks.net>.
>== == == == == == == == == == == == == ==
>
>Note:
>
>"Who is Nicola Ken Barozzi?"
> ... http://www.apache.org/~nicolaken/
> ... http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
>"Who is Ken Coar?"
> ... http://www.apache.org/~coar/
> ... http://ken.coar.org/
>"Who is Paul Hammant?"
> ... http://www.apache.org/~hammant/
> ... http://www.thoughtworks.com/
>
>
"Who is Paul Hammant?"
http://www.thoughtworks.com/profiles/?Hammant,+Paul
http://www.thoughtworks.com/
- Paul
--
http://www.thoughtworks.com -> The art of heavy lifting.
Home for many Agile practicing, Open Source activists...
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 10:05 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:15:43 -0400
> Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 09:14 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata
>> wrote:
>
>>> I'd like to put my sincere plus one as the New Chair of
>>> the Apache Incubator Project To
>>>
>>> [ ] Nicola Ken Barozzi
>>> [ ] Ken Coar
>>> [ ] Paul Hammant
>>
>> ?? :)
>
>
> Okay, I ack'ed your
>> + Current nominees are listed below and the PMC does the actual
>> + selection:
> cvs commit messsage.
>
>
OH! I read "I'd like to put my sincere plus one as the New Chair... to"
as "I am voting for".
Sorry :)
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:15:43 -0400
Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 09:14 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> > I'd like to put my sincere plus one as the New Chair of
> > the Apache Incubator Project To
> >
> > [ ] Nicola Ken Barozzi
> > [ ] Ken Coar
> > [ ] Paul Hammant
>
> ?? :)
Okay, I ack'ed your
> + Current nominees are listed below and the PMC does the actual
> + selection:
cvs commit messsage.
Please go on the vote at PMC@incubator list.
--
P.S.
"Since the PMC is responsible for the oversight, and is the
entity delegated by the board for such, then they should
have the decision who is the chair. The board can appoint
whoever they want, but the recommendation/selection is
from the PMC." means that "everyone can put their opinions
to PMC and PMC can select/recommend one person to Board",
I can interpret... This statement does not prevent the committers
from voting in the *open* manner, it seems.
__ Tetsuya <te...@apache.org> __
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 09:14 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> I'd like to put my sincere plus one as the New Chair of
> the Apache Incubator Project To
>
> [ ] Nicola Ken Barozzi
> [ ] Ken Coar
> [ ] Paul Hammant
>
>
?? :)
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > I don't know if everyone agrees, but I do favor a single point of
reference
> > for those documents.
> likewise. and since they're educational to new apache participants,
> the incubator seems like a good place to me.
It will be interesting to balance the need for a cohesive and accurate set
of documents with the turf wars. Some people clearly felt that any effort
to have a unified library was tantamount to "taking" the documents away from
the people doing them. That neither is nor need be the case, but it is am
image that clearly needs to be corrected in order to get all of the rowers
on board.
> again, i'm trying to answer your question rather than planking a
> 'vote for me!' campaign. :-) sorry if it comes across as the latter.
It didn't, and I did ask. It seems that the PMC will end up deciding who
ought to be its Chair, and ask the Board to ratify it. It seems that we
have excellent candiates for the job. Considering that I expect all of the
candidates to continue on the PMC regardless of the vote, I think that the
energy and ideas being exhibited bode well for the Incubator's evolution and
its own maturation.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> I don't know if everyone agrees, but I do favor a single point of reference
> for those documents.
likewise. and since they're educational to new apache participants,
the incubator seems like a good place to me.
> As for time, didn't you recently resign as Commons Chair because you didn't
> have time?
not entirely. i didn't have the time to bring to it that i thought i t
required, nor the motivational 'fire in the belly' that would lead to
making more time. apache commons has been having something of an
identity crisis since day one, due to the other 'commons' areas
in the asf and to some extent those 'turf' issues you mentioned. when
it was created, greg asked me to chair it, and i thought i could -- but
i didn't have the same passion for the concept as i do for the incubator.
apache commons has been more about politics than code or education, and
i felt i was at a severe disadvantage because i know essentially nothing
about the viewpoint of one of the strongly-voiced sides (jakarta commons).
some of the time necessary would be for my learning curve. i felt that
the project would be better served by having someone else be chair,
who had more understanding of the viewpoints and more motivation about and
investment in the concept.
> Are you sure that you have the time to devote to Incubator,
> which I see as being far more important and active at this point in time?
i believe so. to me, the incubator's purpose and function is much more
clear-cut, it's much more within my existing realm of knowledge, and --
most important -- i have a lot more motivation for and passion about it
than i did for apache commons, even when i was trying my best.
for choosing a chair, i think there are at least three questions:
1. what value would the person bring to the project as chair?
2. does the person want to do it (as opposed to being drafted or
filling in)?
3. can people work with the person?
i can't answer [1] and [3] about myself, but [2] is a definite 'yes'.
and i think i have the time or will make it.
again, i'm trying to answer your question rather than planking a
'vote for me!' campaign. :-) sorry if it comes across as the latter.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ken,
> i see the incubator as having two roles. one is the
> entry path for new packages and their communities
I think that everyone agrees on this, although not everyone may understand
all of the nuances. For example, I wasn't clear on why a project should go
through Incubator if there is an existing TLP into which it will go until
recently. And I think that the destination TLP needs to be made aware that
they have to be intimiately involved with the podling. They need to steward
it, not leave it like a boy in a bubble to be cared for by the nursing staff
until its immune system develops.
> the other role is basically as a documentation repository for all of the
> aspects of that last bit -- how the asf works, what the different parts
> are, how they interact, what/how/why is a
pmc/project/subproject/committer/
> member/... and so on.
I don't know if everyone agrees, but I do favor a single point of reference
for those documents. I find it frustrating to require people to engage in a
scavenger hunt that often leads to redundant and occassionally conflicting
documents that have played whispering down the lane. But there are others
who see such documents as turf to be protected.
As for time, didn't you recently resign as Commons Chair because you didn't
have time? Are you sure that you have the time to devote to Incubator,
which I see as being far more important and active at this point in time?
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>.
Can we all recall one big important thing: the PMC Chair's
role is not to "run the PMC" (as we normally use that
term). That is, in fact, the role of the PMC itself. The Chair
has ultimate authority and responsibility and is also the one
who reports to the board, but the power of the PMC is in the
PMC members themselves.
PMC members cannot just "sit back" and expect the Chair to
fully run the PMC. It's their responsibility to do that.
Think about the Incubator as a code-based PMC. Does anyone
expect that the Chair would write all the code and direct
the exact path of what that code would take?
See 6.3 of the bylaws if confused.
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Re: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I think that Nicola Ken Coar would do a fine job as PMC Chair. ;-)
heh!
> Ok, name games aside, I honestly don't know if Ken or Nicola Ken have any
> substantively different views on what should happen with Incubator.
what should happen, or what it should do? i don't know, either, so here's
my take:
what should happen.. is that our purpose should be more clearly defined,
and our procedures determined, clarified, and documented. right now
there appears to be a whole lot of confusion and i-duh-no wafting about. :-)
what it should do.. i see the incubator as having two roles. one is the
entry path for new packages and their communities, where those are either
completely new or want to migrate their existence. (packages with their
origins inside the asf needn't go through, clearly.) the entry path is
to make sure the legal requirements are met, and to make sure the new
developer community know how things work in the asf so they can fit in.
the other role is basically as a documentation repository for all of the
aspects of that last bit -- how the asf works, what the different parts
are, how they interact, what/how/why is a pmc/project/subproject/committer/
member/... and so on.
anyway, that's my take, having just brought my brain back online this cycle.
i'm not all that interested in planking, but for people who don't know me:
i've been involved with apache since late 1996; i've been on the board of
directors since the asf was incorporated; i've been chair of apachecon since
late 1998; i've been author or co-author of three books about apache httpd;
i haven't really been involved deeply in any projects other than the web
server, apachecon, and the incubator; i'm passionate about the asf and open
development; i'm arrogant, obnoxious, and highly opinionated, but i try to
keep an open mind ;-); i hang out in #apache on irc.freenode.net; and i like
cats. more available on request. your mileage may vary. contents may have
settled during shipment.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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RE: [VOTE] New Chair (Re: cvs commit : incubator STATUS)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
I think that Nicola Ken Coar would do a fine job as PMC Chair. ;-)
Ok, name games aside, I honestly don't know if Ken or Nicola Ken have any
substantively different views on what should happen with Incubator. If they
think so, I would be interested to hear them. Generally, I think that
either Ken or Nicola Ken would do a fine job as PMC Chair. One question is
whom has more time to devote.
--- Noel
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