You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> on 2011/07/05 05:46:12 UTC
Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
For the record, as of yesterday, July 3, there are 50 committers on the Apache OpenOffice.org project. 34 of those are non-mentor members of the PPMC. Another 13 committers apparently don't know that they are invited to be on the PPMC and the simple step required to activate that membership. (One eligible committer has declined to serve on the PPMC. That's a free choice.)
You can find all of the current committers on the list here:
<http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#ooo>
As far as I can tell, among the current committers, there are only four individuals with a TLA in their company name. It is a big company, and I don't know all of them.
We have further potential for committers and PPMC members among the 26 listed as Initial Committers who are yet to submit an iCLA. Some may also be affiliated with TLA Corporation, though I don't spot any.
There are also those ooo-dev contributors who will, as the strength of their contribution becomes evident, are invited to become committers and/or serve on the PPMC. Some of those may well be affiliated with TLA Corporation.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: rabastus@gmail.com [mailto:rabastus@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 19:37
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Another introduction
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
[ ... ]
> There was no error in the question, decisions made at IBM, whether
> policy on OSS, Developer time allowance, code release to the core, work
> on elements that are only useful in Symphony.... these are corporate
> decisions that can affect the project.
>
Actually, none of this can affect the project unless the project
accepts the work we do. We have a PPMC of what? 50? 60? 70 members?
And how many IBM employees on it? Maybe 6? 7? 8? All we can do is
offer contributions. Remember, even a project Committer does not have
absolute ability to make changes at whim. Changes are reviewed and
can be rejected by other Committers.
If you are saying that IBM engineers collectively have the ability to
make contributions that could be accepted by the project and by being
accepted would affect the project, then I thank you for the
compliment. But I don't see a problem here. Honestly, we're getting
pretty equal criticism from people suggesting we're not going to
contribute enough as there are people concerned that we're going to
contribute too much.
[ ... ]
RE: Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
My point, of course, was that having around 5% of the committers being TLAers would not constitute a controlling block lest we were the parliament of a seriously-fragmented democracy.
I didn't consider mentors and our glorious champion in my calculus.
Perhaps a more important point is that it is an unfortunate opportunity cost to fret over-much about problems we don't have, when there are so many more fruitful activities requiring attention.
Meanwhile, yes, trusting the process and its track-record is valuable.
For those who would like to calibrate the process for themselves, I recommend subscription to general@incubator.apache.org long enough to see podlings be shut down and/or fail to exit incubation. It is enlightening to see what the considerations are in discussions leading up to resolution of those situations.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 07:09
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
In terms of the question raised about "corporate decisions that can
affect the project", then I urge people to read the Apache Incubator
guidelines on podling graduation:
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
A major purpose of the Incubation process is to ensure that the (P)PMC
running a project is healthy, and is able to manage the project
independently from outside influence. This means that there is
sufficient diversity within the (P)PMC so that no one corporation is
likely to be able to control the project by having their employees all
vote one way.
If you look across the rest of the almost 100 top level projects hosted
at the ASF, I hope people can see that we do have some experience in
ensuring our projects are allowed to run independently. 8-)
Separately, note that email addresses are not a reliable measure of
employment. I've heard of plenty of people either explicitly choosing
to use their employer's email, or explicitly choosing to *not* use their
employer's email, when working on Apache projects as part of their
dayjobs. You can get an approximation of committer affiliations if you
also include the data in the SVN:committers/MailAlias.txt file, but even
that isn't filled out by everyone.
- Shane, who happens to work at IBM, but who's job role does not include
any Apache work currently (hence, I use my personal email here)
On 7/4/2011 11:46 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> For the record, as of yesterday, July 3, there are 50 committers on
> the Apache OpenOffice.org project. 34 of those are non-mentor
> members of the PPMC. Another 13 committers apparently don't know
> that they are invited to be on the PPMC and the simple step required
> to activate that membership. (One eligible committer has declined to
> serve on the PPMC. That's a free choice.)
>
> You can find all of the current committers on the list here:
> <http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#ooo>
>
> As far as I can tell, among the current committers, there are only
> four individuals with a TLA in their company name. It is a big
> company, and I don't know all of them.
>
> We have further potential for committers and PPMC members among the
> 26 listed as Initial Committers who are yet to submit an iCLA. Some
> may also be affiliated with TLA Corporation, though I don't spot
> any.
>
> There are also those ooo-dev contributors who will, as the strength
> of their contribution becomes evident, are invited to become
> committers and/or serve on the PPMC. Some of those may well be
> affiliated with TLA Corporation.
>
> - Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rabastus@gmail.com [mailto:rabastus@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir
> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 19:37
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Another introduction
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Graham Lauder<yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> There was no error in the question, decisions made at IBM, whether
>> policy on OSS, Developer time allowance, code release to the core, work
>> on elements that are only useful in Symphony.... these are corporate
>> decisions that can affect the project.
>>
>
> Actually, none of this can affect the project unless the project
> accepts the work we do. We have a PPMC of what? 50? 60? 70 members?
> And how many IBM employees on it? Maybe 6? 7? 8? All we can do is
> offer contributions. Remember, even a project Committer does not have
> absolute ability to make changes at whim. Changes are reviewed and
> can be rejected by other Committers.
>
> If you are saying that IBM engineers collectively have the ability to
> make contributions that could be accepted by the project and by being
> accepted would affect the project, then I thank you for the
> compliment. But I don't see a problem here. Honestly, we're getting
> pretty equal criticism from people suggesting we're not going to
> contribute enough as there are people concerned that we're going to
> contribute too much.
>
> [ ... ]
>
Re: Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
In terms of the question raised about "corporate decisions that can
affect the project", then I urge people to read the Apache Incubator
guidelines on podling graduation:
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community
A major purpose of the Incubation process is to ensure that the (P)PMC
running a project is healthy, and is able to manage the project
independently from outside influence. This means that there is
sufficient diversity within the (P)PMC so that no one corporation is
likely to be able to control the project by having their employees all
vote one way.
If you look across the rest of the almost 100 top level projects hosted
at the ASF, I hope people can see that we do have some experience in
ensuring our projects are allowed to run independently. 8-)
Separately, note that email addresses are not a reliable measure of
employment. I've heard of plenty of people either explicitly choosing
to use their employer's email, or explicitly choosing to *not* use their
employer's email, when working on Apache projects as part of their
dayjobs. You can get an approximation of committer affiliations if you
also include the data in the SVN:committers/MailAlias.txt file, but even
that isn't filled out by everyone.
- Shane, who happens to work at IBM, but who's job role does not include
any Apache work currently (hence, I use my personal email here)
On 7/4/2011 11:46 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> For the record, as of yesterday, July 3, there are 50 committers on
> the Apache OpenOffice.org project. 34 of those are non-mentor
> members of the PPMC. Another 13 committers apparently don't know
> that they are invited to be on the PPMC and the simple step required
> to activate that membership. (One eligible committer has declined to
> serve on the PPMC. That's a free choice.)
>
> You can find all of the current committers on the list here:
> <http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#ooo>
>
> As far as I can tell, among the current committers, there are only
> four individuals with a TLA in their company name. It is a big
> company, and I don't know all of them.
>
> We have further potential for committers and PPMC members among the
> 26 listed as Initial Committers who are yet to submit an iCLA. Some
> may also be affiliated with TLA Corporation, though I don't spot
> any.
>
> There are also those ooo-dev contributors who will, as the strength
> of their contribution becomes evident, are invited to become
> committers and/or serve on the PPMC. Some of those may well be
> affiliated with TLA Corporation.
>
> - Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rabastus@gmail.com [mailto:rabastus@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir
> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 19:37
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Another introduction
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Graham Lauder<yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> There was no error in the question, decisions made at IBM, whether
>> policy on OSS, Developer time allowance, code release to the core, work
>> on elements that are only useful in Symphony.... these are corporate
>> decisions that can affect the project.
>>
>
> Actually, none of this can affect the project unless the project
> accepts the work we do. We have a PPMC of what? 50? 60? 70 members?
> And how many IBM employees on it? Maybe 6? 7? 8? All we can do is
> offer contributions. Remember, even a project Committer does not have
> absolute ability to make changes at whim. Changes are reviewed and
> can be rejected by other Committers.
>
> If you are saying that IBM engineers collectively have the ability to
> make contributions that could be accepted by the project and by being
> accepted would affect the project, then I thank you for the
> compliment. But I don't see a problem here. Honestly, we're getting
> pretty equal criticism from people suggesting we're not going to
> contribute enough as there are people concerned that we're going to
> contribute too much.
>
> [ ... ]
>
Re: Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
Posted by Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>.
Thanks!
I get it now.
-W
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 00:31, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dennis,
> >
> > I am a commiter but I still don't have my user/pass for svn or the GUI
> > editing option, so I am one of the 13. I am apparently not aware of how
> to
> > signal my interest in being on the PPMC. What is a TLA? Why is it bad
> to
> > have it?
>
> TLA == Three Letter Acronym. Dennis is being overly-subtle in talking
> about IBM employees. He should just *say* it, since that is precisely
> what he means.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
--
This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
Re: Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 00:31, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dennis,
>
> I am a commiter but I still don't have my user/pass for svn or the GUI
> editing option, so I am one of the 13. I am apparently not aware of how to
> signal my interest in being on the PPMC. What is a TLA? Why is it bad to
> have it?
TLA == Three Letter Acronym. Dennis is being overly-subtle in talking
about IBM employees. He should just *say* it, since that is precisely
what he means.
Cheers,
-g
Re: Undue Influence (was RE: Another introduction)
Posted by Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>.
Dennis,
I am a commiter but I still don't have my user/pass for svn or the GUI
editing option, so I am one of the 13. I am apparently not aware of how to
signal my interest in being on the PPMC. What is a TLA? Why is it bad to
have it?
Wolf Halton
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> wrote:
> For the record, as of yesterday, July 3, there are 50 committers on the
> Apache OpenOffice.org project. 34 of those are non-mentor members of the
> PPMC. Another 13 committers apparently don't know that they are invited to
> be on the PPMC and the simple step required to activate that membership.
> (One eligible committer has declined to serve on the PPMC. That's a free
> choice.)
>
> You can find all of the current committers on the list here:
> <http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#ooo>
>
> As far as I can tell, among the current committers, there are only four
> individuals with a TLA in their company name. It is a big company, and I
> don't know all of them.
>
> We have further potential for committers and PPMC members among the 26
> listed as Initial Committers who are yet to submit an iCLA. Some may also
> be affiliated with TLA Corporation, though I don't spot any.
>
> There are also those ooo-dev contributors who will, as the strength of
> their contribution becomes evident, are invited to become committers and/or
> serve on the PPMC. Some of those may well be affiliated with TLA
> Corporation.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rabastus@gmail.com [mailto:rabastus@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir
> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 19:37
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Another introduction
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>
> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > There was no error in the question, decisions made at IBM, whether
> > policy on OSS, Developer time allowance, code release to the core, work
> > on elements that are only useful in Symphony.... these are corporate
> > decisions that can affect the project.
> >
>
> Actually, none of this can affect the project unless the project
> accepts the work we do. We have a PPMC of what? 50? 60? 70 members?
> And how many IBM employees on it? Maybe 6? 7? 8? All we can do is
> offer contributions. Remember, even a project Committer does not have
> absolute ability to make changes at whim. Changes are reviewed and
> can be rejected by other Committers.
>
> If you are saying that IBM engineers collectively have the ability to
> make contributions that could be accepted by the project and by being
> accepted would affect the project, then I thank you for the
> compliment. But I don't see a problem here. Honestly, we're getting
> pretty equal criticism from people suggesting we're not going to
> contribute enough as there are people concerned that we're going to
> contribute too much.
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
--
This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com