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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk> on 2004/12/21 23:56:36 UTC
[OT][logging] politics [WAS Re: [logging] Enterprise Common Logging... dare we say 2.0?]
On 21 Dec 2004, at 20:24, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> At 07:51 PM 12/21/2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
>> now it's getting political :(
>
> Your comments about the "optionality" of consultations elicited my
> political response.
i've given up politics.
(feel free to reply to my missive but please spend some time creating
some worthwhile since i have no intention of posting any more replies
to this thread. the only reason i've created a reply is that i suspect
there may have been some misunderstanding of the points i wished to
make early.)
> Many ASF members were involved with Apache at one point or
> another. Moreover, Jakarta has quite a few influential, I dare say,
> very influential, members. Thus, it is not easy to emphasize with the
> sense of victimization shared by some Jakarta committers.
i wasn't trying to suggest that jakarta committers are victims, just
that it's another symptom of the problems which the ASF has with
jakarta.
FWIW AFAIK the committers who feel victimized are outside jakarta. IMHO
committers who are vocally critical of the ASF (as an organization) are
something about which the membership should be concerned. some of them
simply have an obvious axe to grind but for others, a few humble and
kind words were all would have been required. certainly, threats by
members to communities (especially without adequate ASF representation)
at a time such as this seems to play a little too much into their
hands. i hope and trust that this wasn't the intent of your previous
post.
(conversely, if you do think that JCL is out of scope for the commons
or is at danger of becoming so - and that it's a big enough issue to
consider things such as appealing to the members, then please tell me
and i'd be glad to nominate you - and any other logging services pmc
members who are interested - as committers for the commons and give you
a free hand to sort out the problem as you best see fit. at least that
way, myself and the rest of the JCL community will have a voice and
some sort of vote. that would seem to me to be much more in the old
apache spirit, at least as far as i can remember it...)
> If proportionally too few Jakarta committers are ASF members,
> which I
> honestly doubt to be the case,
this one came up a while ago (IIRC greg stein raised the demography
problem as one of the issues with jakarta). proportionally, there
are/were too many committers, not enough pmc members and too few
members. jakarta is addressing the first (sub-projects moving to TLP
status) and the second. the third can be addressed by the members only.
i can appreciate why the membership has grown in the way though i had
hoped for a little more understanding that this situation is of the
member's own making.
> what is keeping existing Jakarta
> members from increasing their own representation?
we both know that the majority of jakarta members (yourself, for
example) are actually now primarily involved with top level projects
outside jakarta. even our chair isn't a member. the membership grows
organically.
FWIW i'm actually happy that there isn't a jakarta faction amongst the
membership pushing jakarta committers forward: it's healthy. it's good
that the membership cares more for the ASF than any particular project.
what isn't so good is that they've done a bad job over the last few
months in appearing to care about the committers and communities which
create the code. i am quite sure that this isn't true but i do think
there's a danger that this perceived gap may become a destructive gulf
in the future. so please let's not start that particular war here...
>> matters of scope are less important than matters of community. if
>> strong community backing emerges then the scope issues can easily be
>> solved. if no community emerges then matters of scope will become
>> irrelevant.
>
> It all depends on how you define community. By community do you mean
> Jakarta Commons, Jakarta or the rest of the ASF?
community in the usual apache sense of the word. (or possibly: in the
old apache sense of the word).
- robert
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Re: [OT][logging] politics [WAS Re: [logging] Enterprise Common Logging... dare
we say 2.0?]
Posted by Richard Sitze <rs...@us.ibm.com>.
Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch> wrote on 12/22/2004 04:53:49 AM:
<snip/>
> JCL shows indications of mission creep. I believe this to be a factual
> observation independent of ASF representation.
Just to help clarify your concern, would you please define "mission
creep".
> >(conversely, if you do think that JCL is out of scope for the commons
or
> >is at danger of becoming so - and that it's a big enough issue to
consider
> >things such as appealing to the members, then please tell me and i'd be
> >glad to nominate you - and any other logging services pmc members who
are
> >interested - as committers for the commons and give you a free hand to
> >sort out the problem as you best see fit. at least that way, myself and
> >the rest of the JCL community will have a voice and some sort of vote.
> >that would seem to me to be much more in the old apache spirit, at
least
> >as far as i can remember it...)
>
> Thank you for this offer. We need to consider it carefully and check
> whether we can participate in a meaningful manner. I am forwarding it
> to the LS PMC.
Interesting indeed, not a bad idea. IMHO, any LS PMC member granted
committer status on JCL needs a firm & rational grasp on the distinctly
different goals between JCL and Log4J. Ceki, I believe, understands this
distinction well. I trust anyone else nominated for this role would
understand and respect these differences as well.
> >- robert
>
> --
> Ceki Gülcü
*******************************************
Richard A. Sitze
IBM WebSphere WebServices Development
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Re: [OT][logging] politics [WAS Re: [logging] Enterprise
Common Logging... dare we say 2.0?]
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
At 11:56 PM 12/21/2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>FWIW AFAIK the committers who feel victimized are outside jakarta. IMHO
>committers who are vocally critical of the ASF (as an organization) are
>something about which the membership should be concerned. some of them
>simply have an obvious axe to grind but for others, a few humble and kind
>words were all would have been required. certainly, threats by members to
>communities (especially without adequate ASF representation) at a time
>such as this seems to play a little too much into their hands. i hope and
>trust that this wasn't the intent of your previous post.
JCL shows indications of mission creep. I believe this to be a factual
observation independent of ASF representation.
>(conversely, if you do think that JCL is out of scope for the commons or
>is at danger of becoming so - and that it's a big enough issue to consider
>things such as appealing to the members, then please tell me and i'd be
>glad to nominate you - and any other logging services pmc members who are
>interested - as committers for the commons and give you a free hand to
>sort out the problem as you best see fit. at least that way, myself and
>the rest of the JCL community will have a voice and some sort of vote.
>that would seem to me to be much more in the old apache spirit, at least
>as far as i can remember it...)
Thank you for this offer. We need to consider it carefully and check
whether we can participate in a meaningful manner. I am forwarding it
to the LS PMC.
>- robert
--
Ceki Gülcü
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