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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Michael Acevedo <ve...@yahoo.com> on 2011/07/21 23:35:28 UTC
Suggestion for OOo branding...
Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify document icons by changing the color coding to a unified blue color. This was a departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
* Blue Doc Icon - Writer
* Green Doc Icon - Calc
* Orange Doc Icon - Impress
* Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
* Violet Doc Icon - Base
* Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
Post-OOo 3.2.1
* Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape varies.
In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized version of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X Finder.
In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why not change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to the previous color that were used for each document icons that were created by the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a rendering of the finished product for your consideration.
Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
Sincerely,
Michael Acevedo
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Michael Acevedo <ve...@yahoo.com>.
Please follow the link below to see the renderings...
https://skydrive.live.com/#!/?cid=69f0fbe8e03b2c13&sc=documents&nl=1&uc=1&id=69F0FBE8E03B2C13%211171!cid=69F0FBE8E03B2C13&id=69F0FBE8E03B2C13%211172&sc=documents
Michael
________________________________
From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Cc: 'Michael Acevedo' <ve...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
+1
Evidently, the renderings that have been done are not attached to the post by the list server. Is there some place where we can look at them?
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Wolf Halton [mailto:wolf.halton@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 14:53
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Michael,
Might I suggest doing both- colour-coding and some difference between the
icon symbol.. to assist those 20% of us who are colourblind to some extent.
Wolf
On Jul 21, 2011 5:43 PM, "Michael Acevedo" <ve...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>
> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify document
icons by changing the color coding to a unified blue color. This was a
departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>
> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
> Post-OOo 3.2.1
> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
varies.
> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized version
of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X Finder.
>
> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why not
change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to the
previous color that were used for each document icons that were created by
the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a rendering of the
finished product for your consideration.
>
> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Acevedo
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Sat, 2011-07-23 at 20:32 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> In any case, I think there is some benefit to stepping back and asking
> the basic question: how do we decide such questions about the user
> interface?
>
> A) Do we simply weight in with our personal opinions, saying "I like
> X", "I don't like Y", "I like blue" or "I think X is pretty"?
>
There are always going to be subjective decisions that have to be made
when it comes to marketing, look & feel and UX components, at some point
in the process. We don't have the resources to do otherwise and
certainly not within a reasonable time frame. The objective bit comes
with download numbers.
> or
>
> B) Do we have a way of raising the discussion about mere opinion and
> bring data to bear on the question?
>
> Certainly if we were discussing a performance improvement, a proponent
> of a significant change would be called on to show the numbers, to
> justify the change with hard data. We would not necessarily make wise
> decision relying on opinion, absent data.
>
> Consensus is great, but informed consensus is golden.
>
> Is there some way we can bring some structure to user interface
> decisions via usability testing?
>
Usability testing would be great but it costs... money that we don't
have, the next best thing is going to the community with options.
However, isn't the Apache way, "He who does the work makes the
decision." and the (P)PMC then ratifies or not
However, we have a number of things that should be worked out and nailed
down first in terms of branding.
The Name?
Colour Pallet, the colour Pallet should show consistency across logo,
Website, branding bugs, promotional materials and including of course
icons
Style Manual
Just for starters, if anyone can add to the list please do.
Cheers
GL
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Sat, 2011-07-23 at 20:32 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> In any case, I think there is some benefit to stepping back and asking
> the basic question: how do we decide such questions about the user
> interface?
>
> A) Do we simply weight in with our personal opinions, saying "I like
> X", "I don't like Y", "I like blue" or "I think X is pretty"?
>
There are always going to be subjective decisions that have to be made
when it comes to marketing, look & feel and UX components, at some point
in the process. We don't have the resources to do otherwise and
certainly not within a reasonable time frame. The objective bit comes
with download numbers.
> or
>
> B) Do we have a way of raising the discussion about mere opinion and
> bring data to bear on the question?
>
> Certainly if we were discussing a performance improvement, a proponent
> of a significant change would be called on to show the numbers, to
> justify the change with hard data. We would not necessarily make wise
> decision relying on opinion, absent data.
>
> Consensus is great, but informed consensus is golden.
>
> Is there some way we can bring some structure to user interface
> decisions via usability testing?
>
Usability testing would be great but it costs... money that we don't
have, the next best thing is going to the community with options.
However, isn't the Apache way, "He who does the work makes the
decision." and the (P)PMC then ratifies or not
However, we have a number of things that should be worked out and nailed
down first in terms of branding.
The Name?
Colour Pallet, the colour Pallet should show consistency across logo,
Website, branding bugs, promotional materials and including of course
icons
Style Manual
Just for starters, if anyone can add to the list please do.
Cheers
GL
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <or...@apache.org> wrote:
> What ODF Oligarchy?
>
> OASIS certainly had nothing to do with branding of OpenOffice.org and its choice of icons. The ODF TC has never been consulted on such matters.
>
The OASIS ODF Adoption TC did promote an ODF logo, but I don't think
they did anything with application icons.
In any case, I think there is some benefit to stepping back and asking
the basic question: how do we decide such questions about the user
interface?
A) Do we simply weight in with our personal opinions, saying "I like
X", "I don't like Y", "I like blue" or "I think X is pretty"?
or
B) Do we have a way of raising the discussion about mere opinion and
bring data to bear on the question?
Certainly if we were discussing a performance improvement, a proponent
of a significant change would be called on to show the numbers, to
justify the change with hard data. We would not necessarily make wise
decision relying on opinion, absent data.
Consensus is great, but informed consensus is golden.
Is there some way we can bring some structure to user interface
decisions via usability testing?
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Gusaas [mailto:larry.gusaas@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 13:24
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
>
> On 2011/07/23 1:01 PM Malte Timmermann wrote:
>> On 23.07.2011 07:09, Graham Lauder wrote:
>>> ...I suspect that the original reasoning behind the
>>> ODF thing was a corporate strategy to wave OOo as the primary
>>> application for producing compliant ODF documents. The trend,
>>> especially in Europe, was towards mandating ODF in Govt and so they
>>> wanted to ride the coattails of that move.
>>
>> Actually it was the other way round: We wanted to promote and strengthen ODF.
>
> At the cost of functionality when you eliminated the colours that easily distinguished the
> different file types. All this was done despite the huge objections both before and especially
> after the this horrendous design decision was imposed on the community by the ODF oligarchy.
>
> --
> _________________________________
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
>
RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>.
What ODF Oligarchy?
OASIS certainly had nothing to do with branding of OpenOffice.org and its choice of icons. The ODF TC has never been consulted on such matters.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Gusaas [mailto:larry.gusaas@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 13:24
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
On 2011/07/23 1:01 PM Malte Timmermann wrote:
> On 23.07.2011 07:09, Graham Lauder wrote:
>> ...I suspect that the original reasoning behind the
>> ODF thing was a corporate strategy to wave OOo as the primary
>> application for producing compliant ODF documents. The trend,
>> especially in Europe, was towards mandating ODF in Govt and so they
>> wanted to ride the coattails of that move.
>
> Actually it was the other way round: We wanted to promote and strengthen ODF.
At the cost of functionality when you eliminated the colours that easily distinguished the
different file types. All this was done despite the huge objections both before and especially
after the this horrendous design decision was imposed on the community by the ODF oligarchy.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011/07/23 1:01 PM Malte Timmermann wrote:
> On 23.07.2011 07:09, Graham Lauder wrote:
>> ...I suspect that the original reasoning behind the
>> ODF thing was a corporate strategy to wave OOo as the primary
>> application for producing compliant ODF documents. The trend,
>> especially in Europe, was towards mandating ODF in Govt and so they
>> wanted to ride the coattails of that move.
>
> Actually it was the other way round: We wanted to promote and strengthen ODF.
At the cost of functionality when you eliminated the colours that easily distinguished the
different file types. All this was done despite the huge objections both before and especially
after the this horrendous design decision was imposed on the community by the ODF oligarchy.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Malte Timmermann <ma...@gmx.com>.
On 23.07.2011 07:09, Graham Lauder wrote:
> ...I suspect that the original reasoning behind the
> ODF thing was a corporate strategy to wave OOo as the primary
> application for producing compliant ODF documents. The trend,
> especially in Europe, was towards mandating ODF in Govt and so they
> wanted to ride the coattails of that move.
Actually it was the other way round: We wanted to promote and strengthen
ODF.
Malte.
RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 13:40 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Having thought about it some more, I think it is undesirable to use ODF as an identifier in the icons that are established by specific products.
>
> We are confusing application association and format.
>
> Furthermore, if there is to be an agreement on such icons as generic to the format, it should be arrived at as a wider agreement than one made within OpenOffice.org or LibreOffice projects.
>
> This thread is about OOo branding, and collapsing that onto a matter of ODF "branding" is troublesome for me. Anything about ODF should be product-agnostic.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@openoffice.org]
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 06:39
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
>
> Gianluca Turconi wrote:
> > this issue of the colored icons has been considered a major one
> > for several time in the Italian OOo community, both for usability and
> > brand reasons.
>
> Indeed. To add to the links already seen in other messages, the
> OpenOffice.org community (actually, the names in the "iTeam" were all
> from Oracle, even though everyone could join)
Heh, I tried to join one of the "anybody-can-join" I-Teams and got the
short shift from an Oracle staffer
> was (is?) working at a
> redesign described in
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_icons_i-team
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_Icon_Redesign
>
> However, that was still a bit unsatisfactory for the community at large,
> since it didn't address the color problem (see mockups and guidelines at
> the links above).
To be considering such a small part of the branding strategy at this
point is premature in any case. The default iconset should be a
decision that is made as a part of an overall branding strategy with UX
and Art teams as well. There are more significant decisions to be made
first.
However on the "ODF" branding, I'm with Dennis, application and format
should be separate. I suspect that the original reasoning behind the
ODF thing was a corporate strategy to wave OOo as the primary
application for producing compliant ODF documents. The trend,
especially in Europe, was towards mandating ODF in Govt and so they
wanted to ride the coattails of that move.
If OASIS comes up with a branding/icon strategy for ODF compliant
documents then we should look at offering a set that fits that strategy
but until then, we should stick with what makes for the best User
Experience for our User Base.
The LibreOffice guys used the OOo 3 icons for theirs, that followed the
StarOffice stylised "S" in various colours with the gulls substituted
for the butterfly. Interestingly OOo 2 used a similar style but with
the "S" reversed but with the same colours, obviously to differentiate
it from SO.
Cheers
GL
For a little history on the icon discussion:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons_-_Minutes
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Having thought about it some more, I think it is undesirable to use ODF as an identifier in the icons that are established by specific products.
We are confusing application association and format.
Furthermore, if there is to be an agreement on such icons as generic to the format, it should be arrived at as a wider agreement than one made within OpenOffice.org or LibreOffice projects.
This thread is about OOo branding, and collapsing that onto a matter of ODF "branding" is troublesome for me. Anything about ODF should be product-agnostic.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@openoffice.org]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 06:39
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Gianluca Turconi wrote:
> this issue of the colored icons has been considered a major one
> for several time in the Italian OOo community, both for usability and
> brand reasons.
Indeed. To add to the links already seen in other messages, the
OpenOffice.org community (actually, the names in the "iTeam" were all
from Oracle, even though everyone could join) was (is?) working at a
redesign described in
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_icons_i-team
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_Icon_Redesign
However, that was still a bit unsatisfactory for the community at large,
since it didn't address the color problem (see mockups and guidelines at
the links above).
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
Gianluca Turconi wrote:
> this issue of the colored icons has been considered a major one
> for several time in the Italian OOo community, both for usability and
> brand reasons.
Indeed. To add to the links already seen in other messages, the
OpenOffice.org community (actually, the names in the "iTeam" were all
from Oracle, even though everyone could join) was (is?) working at a
redesign described in
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_icons_i-team
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_Icon_Redesign
However, that was still a bit unsatisfactory for the community at large,
since it didn't address the color problem (see mockups and guidelines at
the links above).
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 07/22/2011 08:11 AM, schrieb Gianluca Turconi:
> In data 22 luglio 2011 alle ore 04:29:02, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> ha scritto:
>
>> Also, using ODF in those boxes is not exactly OOo branding. When OO.o
>> is registered to be the application that works with .doc, .xls, .ppt,
>> etc., what icons are used, do you know?
>
> Same icons as in ODF docs, but with a *blank* white label instead of the
> blue one.
>
> Indeed, this issue of the colored icons has been considered a major one
> for several time in the Italian OOo community, both for usability and
> brand reasons. At the beginning, packages were even created in order to
> re-install the older icons.
Yes, a major problem for a lot of people. However, it's one of the
easiest things to fix. We just have to agree to a common design. ;-)
Marcus
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>.
In data 22 luglio 2011 alle ore 04:29:02, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> ha scritto:
> Also, using ODF in those boxes is not exactly OOo branding. When OO.o
> is registered to be the application that works with .doc, .xls, .ppt,
> etc., what icons are used, do you know?
Same icons as in ODF docs, but with a *blank* white label instead of the
blue one.
Indeed, this issue of the colored icons has been considered a major one
for several time in the Italian OOo community, both for usability and
brand reasons. At the beginning, packages were even created in order to
re-install the older icons.
Regards,
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza, fantasy,
horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Thanks. They are nice.
I like what LibreOffice has done with regard to coloring the outline and background behind the corner cut/fold and providing a color image in the center of larger icons. These are more indicative than the colors alone, it seems to me.
Also, using ODF in those boxes is not exactly OOo branding. When OO.o is registered to be the application that works with .doc, .xls, .ppt, etc., what icons are used, do you know?
A word of caution. I think the folded-over corner icon was claimed to be IP by Xerox Corporation at one point, although I notice that Microsoft uses it for some icons here on my Windows 7 desktop. So I'm not sure what the standing of that is.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Acevedo [mailto:vea1083@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 19:08
To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Dennis,
Use the url below to see them...
https://skydrive.live.com/#!/?cid=69f0fbe8e03b2c13&sc=documents&nl=1&uc=1&id=69F0FBE8E03B2C13%211171!cid=69F0FBE8E03B2C13&id=69F0FBE8E03B2C13%211172&sc=documents
Michael
________________________________
From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Cc: 'Michael Acevedo' <ve...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
+1
Evidently, the renderings that have been done are not attached to the post by the list server. Is there some place where we can look at them?
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Wolf Halton [mailto:wolf.halton@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 14:53
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Michael,
Might I suggest doing both- colour-coding and some difference between the
icon symbol.. to assist those 20% of us who are colourblind to some extent.
Wolf
On Jul 21, 2011 5:43 PM, "Michael Acevedo" <ve...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>
> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify document
icons by changing the color coding to a unified blue color. This was a
departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>
> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
> Post-OOo 3.2.1
> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
varies.
> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized version
of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X Finder.
>
> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why not
change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to the
previous color that were used for each document icons that were created by
the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a rendering of the
finished product for your consideration.
>
> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Acevedo
RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
Evidently, the renderings that have been done are not attached to the post by the list server. Is there some place where we can look at them?
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Wolf Halton [mailto:wolf.halton@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 14:53
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Michael,
Might I suggest doing both- colour-coding and some difference between the
icon symbol.. to assist those 20% of us who are colourblind to some extent.
Wolf
On Jul 21, 2011 5:43 PM, "Michael Acevedo" <ve...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>
> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify document
icons by changing the color coding to a unified blue color. This was a
departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>
> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
> Post-OOo 3.2.1
> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
varies.
> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized version
of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X Finder.
>
> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why not
change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to the
previous color that were used for each document icons that were created by
the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a rendering of the
finished product for your consideration.
>
> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Acevedo
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>.
Michael,
Might I suggest doing both- colour-coding and some difference between the
icon symbol.. to assist those 20% of us who are colourblind to some extent.
Wolf
On Jul 21, 2011 5:43 PM, "Michael Acevedo" <ve...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>
> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify document
icons by changing the color coding to a unified blue color. This was a
departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>
> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
> Post-OOo 3.2.1
> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
varies.
> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized version
of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X Finder.
>
> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why not
change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to the
previous color that were used for each document icons that were created by
the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a rendering of the
finished product for your consideration.
>
> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Acevedo
Re: Bikeshedding (Was: Suggestion for OOo branding...)
Posted by Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>.
This is something new to me, "bikeshedding". I have participated in this
kind of discussio before, but never knew there was a term for the
phenomenon.
Thanks!
On Jul 24, 2011 7:09 AM, "Arthur Buijs" <ar...@artietee.nl> wrote:
> Sometimes a discussion pops up that gets a lot of attention from a lot
> of people and it often leads to heated discussions. When this happens we
> (as a community) should be carefull not to run into the trap of
> bikeshedding [0].
>
> This thread about icons and branding already contains more messages from
> more people than for example the move to SVN and some people are already
> throwing in accusations without explanations.
>
> Because threads like this choke the community we should try to identify
> them early and see how we can work around them before they cause to much
> damage to our community.
>
> For example in this case someone who is smart about branding and icons
> could do a proposal to add a page to the wiki and define (based on
> research and evidence) a set of guidelines for icons. Instead of
> discussing about a certain color on this list we discuss the reason to
> use (or not to use) colors. And then we hope this different discussion
> does not attract everybody with an opinion (because then the
> bikeshedding continues) but only those people who add value to the
> guidelines on the wiki with their knowledge and experience on the subject.
>
> [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law_of_Triviality
>
> --
> Regards/groeten,
> Arthur Buijs
Bikeshedding (Was: Suggestion for OOo branding...)
Posted by Arthur Buijs <ar...@artietee.nl>.
Sometimes a discussion pops up that gets a lot of attention from a lot
of people and it often leads to heated discussions. When this happens we
(as a community) should be carefull not to run into the trap of
bikeshedding [0].
This thread about icons and branding already contains more messages from
more people than for example the move to SVN and some people are already
throwing in accusations without explanations.
Because threads like this choke the community we should try to identify
them early and see how we can work around them before they cause to much
damage to our community.
For example in this case someone who is smart about branding and icons
could do a proposal to add a page to the wiki and define (based on
research and evidence) a set of guidelines for icons. Instead of
discussing about a certain color on this list we discuss the reason to
use (or not to use) colors. And then we hope this different discussion
does not attract everybody with an opinion (because then the
bikeshedding continues) but only those people who add value to the
guidelines on the wiki with their knowledge and experience on the subject.
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law_of_Triviality
--
Regards/groeten,
Arthur Buijs
RE: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Yes, the LibreOffice icons are different. The overall theme is green, not blue. The general symbol is a page with a large corner cut and a dark corner exposed beneath.
The lines and the dark corner are different colors for the different applications within LibreOffice. For larger versions of the icons the interior of the page symbol is representative of what the application is for:
<http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons#Present_State_of_the_Icon_Design>.
Note that the blue color for the LibreOffice Writer icon is not the same as the OpenOffice.org blue color.
- Dennis
By the way, the LibreOffice (TDF) Trademark Policy is here:
< http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TradeMark_Policy>
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 17:58
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
One key question is whether the ODF icons belong with OpenOffice.org.[1][2] or with the ODF Toolkit [3][4]
The icon repository is here.[5]
In the OOo wiki there is a page with links to Icon guides for several platforms along with some of the considerations for the unified versions.[6]
If you look you will notice that the blue color on the ODF icons matches the color in the OpenOffice.org logo.
Did LibreOffice change their ODF document icons?
Regards,
Dave
[1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MimeType_Icons#The_unified_ODF_MimeType_Icons_for_OpenOffice.org_3.2.1
[2] http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/ODF_icons4print.html
[3] http://odftoolkit.org/projects/odftoolkit/pages/ODF-Icons
[4] http://odftoolkit.org/projects/odftoolkit/pages/ODF-Icons-HighContrast
[5] http://odftoolkit.org/projects/operations/sources/repository/show/odficons2?rev=3
[6] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_Icons_-_Icon_Style_Guides
On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:
> I think the best way of handling these types of changes is to create alternate 'themes', and later determine which theme is the default, and which will ship with the product. I'm not sure how this works with the current layout of source control, but it should not be a major problem.
>
> Through the use of alternate themes, we can embrace the evolution of the look and feel of the product, without having to pick and choose favorites on the front end. I happen to like the current icon set, as it is less colorful, it is also more 'professional' looking. At the same time, I have to acknowledge that I do like what the LO folks have done with the L&F, which is going in an entirely different direction.
>
> We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design front.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On 7/21/2011 4:00 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>> Am 07/21/2011 11:35 PM, schrieb Michael Acevedo:
>>> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>>>
>>> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
>>> OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify
>>> document icons by changing the color codingto a unified blue color. This
>>> was a departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>>>
>>> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
>>>
>>> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
>>> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
>>> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
>>> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
>>> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
>>> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
>>>
>>> Post-OOo 3.2.1
>>>
>>> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
>>> varies.
>>>
>>> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
>>> that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized
>>> version of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X
>>> Finder.
>>>
>>> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
>>> following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why
>>> not change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to
>>> the previous color that were used for each document icons that were
>>> created by the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a
>>> rendering of the finished product for your consideration.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
>>
>> I don't like the idea to change the color of the icon part with the term "ODF". ODF is nowadays also a kind of an own brand, so we should keep using it the unified color blue. IMHO also others are using this with only one color, so we shouldn't change it.
>>
>> But, of course, a clear +1 to bring back color in general to the document icons.
>>
>> So, my suggestion is to color the now used icons or to bring back the old ones that were used before the monochrome icons.
>>
>> Marcus
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Dave Fisher wrote:
> One key question is whether the ODF icons belong with OpenOffice.org.[1][2] or with the ODF Toolkit [3][4]
>
> The icon repository is here.[5]
>
> In the OOo wiki there is a page with links to Icon guides for several platforms along with some of the considerations for the unified versions.[6]
>
> If you look you will notice that the blue color on the ODF icons matches the color in the OpenOffice.org logo.
>
> Did LibreOffice change their ODF document icons?
Yes they did. One of the first things they did was revert back to the
older colored icons.
A note: Even after the uproar the icon change caused, OOo would not
revert back. It is still some what of a sore point with some users.
Andy
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
One key question is whether the ODF icons belong with OpenOffice.org.[1][2] or with the ODF Toolkit [3][4]
The icon repository is here.[5]
In the OOo wiki there is a page with links to Icon guides for several platforms along with some of the considerations for the unified versions.[6]
If you look you will notice that the blue color on the ODF icons matches the color in the OpenOffice.org logo.
Did LibreOffice change their ODF document icons?
Regards,
Dave
[1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MimeType_Icons#The_unified_ODF_MimeType_Icons_for_OpenOffice.org_3.2.1
[2] http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/ODF_icons4print.html
[3] http://odftoolkit.org/projects/odftoolkit/pages/ODF-Icons
[4] http://odftoolkit.org/projects/odftoolkit/pages/ODF-Icons-HighContrast
[5] http://odftoolkit.org/projects/operations/sources/repository/show/odficons2?rev=3
[6] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_Icons_-_Icon_Style_Guides
On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:
> I think the best way of handling these types of changes is to create alternate 'themes', and later determine which theme is the default, and which will ship with the product. I'm not sure how this works with the current layout of source control, but it should not be a major problem.
>
> Through the use of alternate themes, we can embrace the evolution of the look and feel of the product, without having to pick and choose favorites on the front end. I happen to like the current icon set, as it is less colorful, it is also more 'professional' looking. At the same time, I have to acknowledge that I do like what the LO folks have done with the L&F, which is going in an entirely different direction.
>
> We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design front.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On 7/21/2011 4:00 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>> Am 07/21/2011 11:35 PM, schrieb Michael Acevedo:
>>> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>>>
>>> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
>>> OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify
>>> document icons by changing the color codingto a unified blue color. This
>>> was a departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>>>
>>> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
>>>
>>> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
>>> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
>>> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
>>> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
>>> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
>>> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
>>>
>>> Post-OOo 3.2.1
>>>
>>> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
>>> varies.
>>>
>>> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
>>> that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized
>>> version of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X
>>> Finder.
>>>
>>> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
>>> following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why
>>> not change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to
>>> the previous color that were used for each document icons that were
>>> created by the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a
>>> rendering of the finished product for your consideration.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
>>
>> I don't like the idea to change the color of the icon part with the term "ODF". ODF is nowadays also a kind of an own brand, so we should keep using it the unified color blue. IMHO also others are using this with only one color, so we shouldn't change it.
>>
>> But, of course, a clear +1 to bring back color in general to the document icons.
>>
>> So, my suggestion is to color the now used icons or to bring back the old ones that were used before the monochrome icons.
>>
>> Marcus
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>.
2011/7/24 Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>
There is also a OOo issue with a very long discussion about the topic. I
> don't remember its number. I'll try to search for it and then I'll post the
> URL if I'll find it.
>
I've found it:
http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=112141
There are nearly 300 messages and even different graphical suggestions for
alternative icon sets.
The comment # 293 is a plea to Apache Foundation made on June, 11th for the
colored icons. ;-)
Regards,
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>.
Hello,
2011/7/23 Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>
> Was this a case of there not being enough volunteers to do the work?
> Or the work as already done, but the work as not being integrated into
> the build?
>
> There are really three kinds of proposals:
>
> 1) Good idea, and there are enough people willing to contribute to it
> in order to make it happen
>
> 2) OK idea, but not a priority for enough people. So the idea languishes.
>
> 3) Bad idea.
>
The formal proposal for that project is still here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/LibreOfficeWiki/Proposed
"Central Web Structure for LibreOffice Volunteers"
In the Italian Community, we have even created a test site, tested different
CMS and really tried to make the project take off.
However, I've *felt* a strong opposition from the developers that, IMO, is
related to the "Cathedral and Bazaar Open Source Approaches", with a
prevalence of the Bazaar approach in LibO, in which "more freedom and less
centralization equals to more efficiency of development".
Indeed, I'd have said that the Bazaar approach creates more innovation
rather than more efficiency, but I usually don't start religious wars about
these topics. :-)
Coming back in topic, about your question for informed consesus, here
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Q1LyPjMm_MEJ:blogs.oracle.com/GullFOSS/entry/unified_odf_icons+&cd=5&hl=it&ct=clnk&source=encrypted.google.com
you can find a web cached version of the GullFOSS blog post in which the
"Unified ODF Icons" were announced and at the end of the page you can find
the "not-so-happy" comments of OOo users.
There is also a OOo issue with a very long discussion about the topic. I
don't remember its number. I'll try to search for it and then I'll post the
URL if I'll find it.
Regards
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Gianluca Turconi
<in...@letturefantastiche.com> wrote:
> 2011/7/23 Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>
>
> [...]
>
> In other words, we need people to stand up and say, "I want to do X".
>> "X" is then a proposal that is discussed. If there are no objections,
>> then the person who volunteered to do "X" does it. (Lazy consensus).
>> If the task is so obviously necessary that no one would reasonably
>> object, then you just do it. (Everything in SVN can be reversed).
>>
>> What doesn't work as well is having one group of project members make
>> proposals for what another group of project members should do.
>> Suggestions and feedback are always welcome, of course, from everyone
>> in the community. But what really drives the project forward is the
>> members who say "I will do X".
>>
>
> [...]
>
> For things like this, where greater coordination is required, someone
>> should say, "I want to do X, who will join me?". But no one should be
>> waiting to be led, or waiting for instructions to come down and tell
>> us the direction. Things happen based more on a volunteer's efforts
>> and less on wishes.
>>
>
> Please, don't get me wrong, but I'm exactly coming from the same situation
> in the LibO project.
>
> I had an idea, whose implementation would have been rather time-consuming,
> there was "some" consensus on some lists, I pushed the idea, contacted
> people, started to work and after a huge amount of work hours there was no
> sureness that the idea would have been really implemented as a community
> tool, yet.
>
Was this a case of there not being enough volunteers to do the work?
Or the work as already done, but the work as not being integrated into
the build?
There are really three kinds of proposals:
1) Good idea, and there are enough people willing to contribute to it
in order to make it happen
2) OK idea, but not a priority for enough people. So the idea languishes.
3) Bad idea.
#2 is the tricky one, since you may receive no objections on the list,
and it seems like consensus. But nothing ever happens. That's why I
think the focus should be on "I would like to do X". It is the
combination of an idea and a volunteer that makes things happen.
> Finally, what I got it was a lot of frustration that let me come here and
> see how Apache OOo community works.
>
> I've understood the matter of the lazy consensus, but I'm just trying to
> avoid more frustration. :-)
>
I understand. With Apache, all committers have access to the
product's source code and can make changes. We have over 50
committers who can do that. However, any committer can also veto any
change to the product by casting a "-1" vote. However, this veto must
be accompanied by a substantial justification for the objection, as
well as an alternative that they are willing to contribute to. In
other words, someone cannot just object to a code contribution without
strong reasons and a willingness to contribute to an alternative
solution.
So frustration cannot be 100% prevented. (I wish it could!) But a
good approach to minimizing it is:
1) Describe what you want to do on the list in a [DISCUSSION] thread.
Use this also as an opportunity to solicit for help on the task.
2) If there are no objections and you have the help you need then go
forward to implement.
3) When the changes are ready, then the changes are reviewed, either
before or after committing them. At this point it is possible you get
a -1. Even a good idea could be implemented poorly, or introduce a
bug. So you iterate until such technical objections are addressed.
> Indeed, I'm not a professional designer, but I can surely try to find a
> volunteer with suitable skills, if a colored icon set is seen as a need from
> the Community and enough guidelines are provided (colors,
> brand, graphical elements, deadline, ...).
>
> It may be a classic call for help "We need... , can you help us?" in the
> native language communities. There are a lot of people out there, in the
> larger Community, that *don't* read this mailing list and *may* contribute
> anyway, if they know help is needed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gianluca
> --
> Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
> fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
> http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
>
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>.
2011/7/23 Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>
[...]
In other words, we need people to stand up and say, "I want to do X".
> "X" is then a proposal that is discussed. If there are no objections,
> then the person who volunteered to do "X" does it. (Lazy consensus).
> If the task is so obviously necessary that no one would reasonably
> object, then you just do it. (Everything in SVN can be reversed).
>
> What doesn't work as well is having one group of project members make
> proposals for what another group of project members should do.
> Suggestions and feedback are always welcome, of course, from everyone
> in the community. But what really drives the project forward is the
> members who say "I will do X".
>
[...]
For things like this, where greater coordination is required, someone
> should say, "I want to do X, who will join me?". But no one should be
> waiting to be led, or waiting for instructions to come down and tell
> us the direction. Things happen based more on a volunteer's efforts
> and less on wishes.
>
Please, don't get me wrong, but I'm exactly coming from the same situation
in the LibO project.
I had an idea, whose implementation would have been rather time-consuming,
there was "some" consensus on some lists, I pushed the idea, contacted
people, started to work and after a huge amount of work hours there was no
sureness that the idea would have been really implemented as a community
tool, yet.
Finally, what I got it was a lot of frustration that let me come here and
see how Apache OOo community works.
I've understood the matter of the lazy consensus, but I'm just trying to
avoid more frustration. :-)
Indeed, I'm not a professional designer, but I can surely try to find a
volunteer with suitable skills, if a colored icon set is seen as a need from
the Community and enough guidelines are provided (colors,
brand, graphical elements, deadline, ...).
It may be a classic call for help "We need... , can you help us?" in the
native language communities. There are a lot of people out there, in the
larger Community, that *don't* read this mailing list and *may* contribute
anyway, if they know help is needed.
Regards,
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:44 AM, Gianluca Turconi
<in...@letturefantastiche.com> wrote:
> 2011/7/22 Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>
>
>
>> I think we need an approach for issues like the icon set that allow
>> developers to produce,
>> and the community to review, alternate sets of resources. It would be good
>> to agree
>> on a common set of design criteria (e.g. color differentiation, accessible,
>> highlight ODF, etc).
>> The process should allow for multiple options to be developed *before* the
>> choice of a new default.
>>
>> I think this is different from the standard process of CTR, but in the case
>> of RTC it would be nice to
>> have the evolution of multiple sets of resources in the svn history. I'm
>> wondering how we do
>> this within the Apache way.
>>
>
> Indeed, I'm wondering the same thing too, because I'm new to the Apache way
> of work and I'm still learning.
>
We are all learning.
> In the older OOo community, the work was project-centric, where a need grew
> in a specific project and then it was satisfied from professional
> developers or volunteers with suitable skills, while trying to have a larger
> consensus in the community.
>
> Here, the whole process is more SVN-centric and there is, at least so far, a
> lot less specialization through sub-projects and so on.
>
I don't think SVN is the essential aspect of Apache. But you are
correct that there is less of a hierarchy. The decision making process
in an Apache project is very "flat".
> So, the main question I have is: is a broad consensus on this list "to
> change the icon set" enough in order to put that task on Apache OOo to-do
> list for the future, at least as a starting point?
>
Think less of the"to-do list" and more of the do-ers.
In other words, we need people to stand up and say, "I want to do X".
"X" is then a proposal that is discussed. If there are no objections,
then the person who volunteered to do "X" does it. (Lazy consensus).
If the task is so obviously necessary that no one would reasonably
object, then you just do it. (Everything in SVN can be reversed).
What doesn't work as well is having one group of project members make
proposals for what another group of project members should do.
Suggestions and feedback are always welcome, of course, from everyone
in the community. But what really drives the project forward is the
members who say "I will do X".
> In fact, this simple change involves a lot of collateral tasks and duties:
>
> 1) a creation of a design development process (as you correctly stated);
> 2) a creation of an Apache OOo brand identity (legal stuff for a logo/color
> schema?);
> 3) "Foreign affairs" for external collaborations (with the ODF group, for
> example).
>
For things like this, where greater coordination is required, someone
should say, "I want to do X, who will join me?". But no one should be
waiting to be led, or waiting for instructions to come down and tell
us the direction. Things happen based more on a volunteer's efforts
and less on wishes.
Of course, we should be looking to engage the contributors we have as
well as attract more contributors. One way of doing that is to put
your ideas on the "help wanted" wiki page:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted .
That is a good place to put things that you think would be useful for
the project, but where you don't currently have the time to work on.
-Rob
> Regards,
>
> Gianluca
> --
> Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
> fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
> http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
>
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>.
2011/7/22 Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>
> I think we need an approach for issues like the icon set that allow
> developers to produce,
> and the community to review, alternate sets of resources. It would be good
> to agree
> on a common set of design criteria (e.g. color differentiation, accessible,
> highlight ODF, etc).
> The process should allow for multiple options to be developed *before* the
> choice of a new default.
>
> I think this is different from the standard process of CTR, but in the case
> of RTC it would be nice to
> have the evolution of multiple sets of resources in the svn history. I'm
> wondering how we do
> this within the Apache way.
>
Indeed, I'm wondering the same thing too, because I'm new to the Apache way
of work and I'm still learning.
In the older OOo community, the work was project-centric, where a need grew
in a specific project and then it was satisfied from professional
developers or volunteers with suitable skills, while trying to have a larger
consensus in the community.
Here, the whole process is more SVN-centric and there is, at least so far, a
lot less specialization through sub-projects and so on.
So, the main question I have is: is a broad consensus on this list "to
change the icon set" enough in order to put that task on Apache OOo to-do
list for the future, at least as a starting point?
In fact, this simple change involves a lot of collateral tasks and duties:
1) a creation of a design development process (as you correctly stated);
2) a creation of an Apache OOo brand identity (legal stuff for a logo/color
schema?);
3) "Foreign affairs" for external collaborations (with the ODF group, for
example).
Regards,
Gianluca
--
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:
http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>.
On 7/22/2011 5:03 AM, Gianluca Turconi wrote:
> 2011/7/22 Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de>
>
>
>> We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design
>>> front.
>>>
>> Yes, it would be a great help to our users if they can choose their
>> favorite icon design. I could imagine a pool of the current B/W and the
>> older colored icons with the option to bring in own sets (e.g., the set from
>> LO).
>>
> However, I supposed we were talking about the *default* icon theme.
>
> Obviously, it would be a great thing to have themes for document icons, but
> many people don't even use styles in their own documents as primary
> customization... ;-)
>
> IMO, having consensus on the fact that a colored *default* icon set is a
> basic usability need it's already a first step in the right direction.
My interest is our process for developing new icon sets and for choosing
the default.
One of the problems, compared to normal code, is that there are a large
number of
design considerations that lead to a single file element. Even if we
agree on bringing
back color, there is the issue of how the color is used, how the common
elements of
the icons are used (background and ODF label), and how we insure that
the icons
meet accessibility requirements (color cannot be the only differentiator).
Even if we agree on the objective parts of the design, there are many
subjective elements
to a design. Thus, even if we agree on the design criteria, multiple
sets of icons could be
generated which match the criteria, but have very different look & feel.
I think we need an approach for issues like the icon set that allow
developers to produce,
and the community to review, alternate sets of resources. It would be
good to agree
on a common set of design criteria (e.g. color differentiation,
accessible, highlight ODF, etc).
The process should allow for multiple options to be developed *before*
the choice of a new default.
I think this is different from the standard process of CTR, but in the
case of RTC it would be nice to
have the evolution of multiple sets of resources in the svn history.
I'm wondering how we do
this within the Apache way.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gianluca
>
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 07/22/2011 02:03 PM, schrieb Gianluca Turconi:
> 2011/7/22 Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de>
>
>
>> We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design
>>> front.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it would be a great help to our users if they can choose their
>> favorite icon design. I could imagine a pool of the current B/W and the
>> older colored icons with the option to bring in own sets (e.g., the set from
>> LO).
>>
>
> However, I supposed we were talking about the *default* icon theme.
>
> Obviously, it would be a great thing to have themes for document icons, but
> many people don't even use styles in their own documents as primary
> customization... ;-)
Maybe no all would use it but this shouldn't be an argument not to try
to think and implement such a way.
> IMO, having consensus on the fact that a colored *default* icon set is a
> basic usability need it's already a first step in the right direction.
+1
Marcus
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Gianluca Turconi <in...@letturefantastiche.com>.
2011/7/22 Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de>
> We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design
>> front.
>>
>
> Yes, it would be a great help to our users if they can choose their
> favorite icon design. I could imagine a pool of the current B/W and the
> older colored icons with the option to bring in own sets (e.g., the set from
> LO).
>
However, I supposed we were talking about the *default* icon theme.
Obviously, it would be a great thing to have themes for document icons, but
many people don't even use styles in their own documents as primary
customization... ;-)
IMO, having consensus on the fact that a colored *default* icon set is a
basic usability need it's already a first step in the right direction.
Regards,
Gianluca
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 07/22/2011 01:17 AM, schrieb Andrew Rist:
> I think the best way of handling these types of changes is to create
> alternate 'themes', and later determine which theme is the default, and
> which will ship with the product. I'm not sure how this works with the
> current layout of source control, but it should not be a major problem.
Maybe the problem is that the icons are installed in the OS and not with
OOo (AFAIK). So, just to switch some checkboxes in the OOo options
dialog is not enough as it wouldn't exchange the iconset somewhere in
the OS.
To make this possible some bigger changes have to be done; and I don't
know if it's possible at all to reach this goal on every platform.
> Through the use of alternate themes, we can embrace the evolution of the
> look and feel of the product, without having to pick and choose
> favorites on the front end. I happen to like the current icon set, as it
> is less colorful, it is also more 'professional' looking. At the same
> time, I have to acknowledge that I do like what the LO folks have done
> with the L&F, which is going in an entirely different direction.
Interesting, for *me personal* there is no connection between
Black/White icons and professional working/design. ;-) There is no clear
differenciation between them and you always have to look twice to see if
it's the right icon and therefore the right document you need to
doubleclick to open it.
> We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design
> front.
Yes, it would be a great help to our users if they can choose their
favorite icon design. I could imagine a pool of the current B/W and the
older colored icons with the option to bring in own sets (e.g., the set
from LO).
Marcus
> On 7/21/2011 4:00 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>> Am 07/21/2011 11:35 PM, schrieb Michael Acevedo:
>>> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>>>
>>> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
>>> OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify
>>> document icons by changing the color codingto a unified blue color. This
>>> was a departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>>>
>>> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
>>>
>>> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
>>> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
>>> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
>>> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
>>> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
>>> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
>>>
>>> Post-OOo 3.2.1
>>>
>>> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
>>> varies.
>>>
>>> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
>>> that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized
>>> version of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X
>>> Finder.
>>>
>>> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
>>> following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why
>>> not change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to
>>> the previous color that were used for each document icons that were
>>> created by the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a
>>> rendering of the finished product for your consideration.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in
>>> OOo.
>>
>> I don't like the idea to change the color of the icon part with the
>> term "ODF". ODF is nowadays also a kind of an own brand, so we should
>> keep using it the unified color blue. IMHO also others are using this
>> with only one color, so we shouldn't change it.
>>
>> But, of course, a clear +1 to bring back color in general to the
>> document icons.
>>
>> So, my suggestion is to color the now used icons or to bring back the
>> old ones that were used before the monochrome icons.
>>
>> Marcus
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>.
I think the best way of handling these types of changes is to create
alternate 'themes', and later determine which theme is the default, and
which will ship with the product. I'm not sure how this works with the
current layout of source control, but it should not be a major problem.
Through the use of alternate themes, we can embrace the evolution of the
look and feel of the product, without having to pick and choose
favorites on the front end. I happen to like the current icon set, as
it is less colorful, it is also more 'professional' looking. At the
same time, I have to acknowledge that I do like what the LO folks have
done with the L&F, which is going in an entirely different direction.
We need to be able to simultaneously develop alternatives on the design
front.
Andrew
On 7/21/2011 4:00 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> Am 07/21/2011 11:35 PM, schrieb Michael Acevedo:
>> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>>
>> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
>> OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify
>> document icons by changing the color codingto a unified blue color. This
>> was a departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>>
>> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
>>
>> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
>> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
>> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
>> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
>> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
>> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
>>
>> Post-OOo 3.2.1
>>
>> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
>> varies.
>>
>> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
>> that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized
>> version of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X
>> Finder.
>>
>> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
>> following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why
>> not change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to
>> the previous color that were used for each document icons that were
>> created by the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a
>> rendering of the finished product for your consideration.
>>
>> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in
>> OOo.
>
> I don't like the idea to change the color of the icon part with the
> term "ODF". ODF is nowadays also a kind of an own brand, so we should
> keep using it the unified color blue. IMHO also others are using this
> with only one color, so we shouldn't change it.
>
> But, of course, a clear +1 to bring back color in general to the
> document icons.
>
> So, my suggestion is to color the now used icons or to bring back the
> old ones that were used before the monochrome icons.
>
> Marcus
Re: Suggestion for OOo branding...
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 07/21/2011 11:35 PM, schrieb Michael Acevedo:
> Greetings to all developers of OpenOffice.org in Apache,
>
> I am writing to you to make a suggestion for the branding of
> OpenOffice.org. After Oracle bought Sun they decided to simplify
> document icons by changing the color codingto a unified blue color. This
> was a departure for the previous color coding for OOo.
>
> Pre-OOo 3.2.1:
>
> * Blue Doc Icon - Writer
> * Green Doc Icon - Calc
> * Orange Doc Icon - Impress
> * Yellow Doc Icon - Draw
> * Violet Doc Icon - Base
> * Blue/Gray Doc Icon - Math
>
> Post-OOo 3.2.1
>
> * Blue ODF icons now represent all applications only the icon shape
> varies.
>
> In my opinion although the unified version of OOo icons is nice, I think
> that some users might confuse the icons if they look at a minimized
> version of them if using the "List" view in Windows Explorer of Mac OS X
> Finder.
>
> In an effort to reduce user confusion, I would like to forward the
> following suggestion. Rather than redesigning the document icons, why
> not change the background color of the box that says "ODF" from blue to
> the previous color that were used for each document icons that were
> created by the different OOo modules. I have taken the liberty to do a
> rendering of the finished product for your consideration.
>
> Thanks to all developers for your time, and keep up the good work in OOo.
I don't like the idea to change the color of the icon part with the term
"ODF". ODF is nowadays also a kind of an own brand, so we should keep
using it the unified color blue. IMHO also others are using this with
only one color, so we shouldn't change it.
But, of course, a clear +1 to bring back color in general to the
document icons.
So, my suggestion is to color the now used icons or to bring back the
old ones that were used before the monochrome icons.
Marcus