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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de> on 2002/08/07 10:40:53 UTC
Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
larize it . . .)
Piroumian Konstantin wrote:
> Your are wrong saying that Cocoon does not server its own website. Cocoon's
> site is generated using Cocoon's CLI as well as the Forrest site
> (http://xml.apache.org/forrest or the recent version:
> http://www.krysalis.org/forrest). The reason that the web site is not served
> as a web application is the infrastructure that has no running servlet
> engine on the web server.
As I said, there are probably good reasons. But from a marketing point
of view it is still a show-stopper.
> Cocoon can be used to implement a Wiki application, isn't it? The other
> thing is that nobody had did it yet.
And people wonder: why not? Why are there Wiki implementations in JSP,
but none for Cocoon? If it were easy to do, surely someone could slap
something together right now.
> For lighter tasks a lighter tool is the best, but when you have a complex
> web application/site with customizable/personalizable content and layout,
> where you will need multimedia output of the same content etc. then you'll
> hardly be happy to do it using JSP even with its XML and Tiles like taglibs.
So, Cocoon is positioned as being only for large and complex websites?
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
larize it . . .)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>> Cocoon can be used to implement a Wiki application, isn't it? The other
>> thing is that nobody had did it yet.
>
>
> And people wonder: why not? Why are there Wiki implementations in JSP,
> but none for Cocoon? If it were easy to do, surely someone could slap
> something together right now.
So do it. I've got other more pressing things to work on. Its your
itch, scratch it. To me generating documentation for Cocoon
is FAR more important.
>
>> For lighter tasks a lighter tool is the best, but when you have a
>> complex
>> web application/site with customizable/personalizable content and
>> layout,
>> where you will need multimedia output of the same content etc. then
>> you'll
>> hardly be happy to do it using JSP even with its XML and Tiles like
>> taglibs.
>
>
> So, Cocoon is positioned as being only for large and complex websites?
Using Cocoon for a very very simple website would be (IMHO) MASSIVE
overkill.
Just like buying an E10000 would be overkill for a 4 webpage site that
gets 100 hits
a day.
-Andy
>
> Ulrich
>
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
larize it . . .)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
> I agree with Ulrich to a certain extent.
> Cocoon's core Documentation belongs to the Cocoon main web site.
As I said right from the start, I regard CocoDocoWiki as a documentation
breeding environment, and I will investigate how we can migrate Wiki
docs back into Forrest.
> Supporting sites are fine for developing new pieces of docs, but they should
> be only refered to as supporting sites, not main sources of information.
> As we've discussed before, hopefully with forrest we will be able to allow
> inline notes to the Cocoon main site,
> similarly to PHP's doc pages.
It remains to be seen whether this can be hosted by ASF equipment. If
this is not the case, we will find a solution.
regards,
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
larize it . . .)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
And thats fine. The wiki is for content generation more than dispersal.
But I DONT think we should wait for forrest before beginning this.
Cocoon's documentation has been
a rotting heap for too long.
-Andy
Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
>I agree with Ulrich to a certain extent.
>Cocoon's core Documentation belongs to the Cocoon main web site.
>Supporting sites are fine for developing new pieces of docs, but they should
>be only refered to as supporting sites, not main sources of information.
>As we've discussed before, hopefully with forrest we will be able to allow
>inline notes to the Cocoon main site,
>similarly to PHP's doc pages.
>
>Ivelin
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ulrich Mayring" <ul...@denic.de>
>To: <co...@xml.apache.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:40 AM
>Subject: Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
>larize it . . .)
>
>
>
>
>>Piroumian Konstantin wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Your are wrong saying that Cocoon does not server its own website.
>>>
>>>
>Cocoon's
>
>
>>>site is generated using Cocoon's CLI as well as the Forrest site
>>>(http://xml.apache.org/forrest or the recent version:
>>>http://www.krysalis.org/forrest). The reason that the web site is not
>>>
>>>
>served
>
>
>>>as a web application is the infrastructure that has no running servlet
>>>engine on the web server.
>>>
>>>
>>As I said, there are probably good reasons. But from a marketing point
>>of view it is still a show-stopper.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Cocoon can be used to implement a Wiki application, isn't it? The other
>>>thing is that nobody had did it yet.
>>>
>>>
>>And people wonder: why not? Why are there Wiki implementations in JSP,
>>but none for Cocoon? If it were easy to do, surely someone could slap
>>something together right now.
>>
>>
>>
>>>For lighter tasks a lighter tool is the best, but when you have a
>>>
>>>
>complex
>
>
>>>web application/site with customizable/personalizable content and
>>>
>>>
>layout,
>
>
>>>where you will need multimedia output of the same content etc. then
>>>
>>>
>you'll
>
>
>>>hardly be happy to do it using JSP even with its XML and Tiles like
>>>
>>>
>taglibs.
>
>
>>So, Cocoon is positioned as being only for large and complex websites?
>>
>>Ulrich
>>
>>--
>>Ulrich Mayring
>>DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
larize it . . .)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Well said.
Diana Shannon wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 07:09 AM, Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
>
>> Cocoon's core Documentation belongs to the Cocoon main web site.
>
>
> I think this is short-sighted. Take no offense, Ivelin, I thought this
> way originally too. However, having struggled with Cocoon docs over
> the past few months, given our current system, I'm eager to explore
> other opportunities, particularly those that increase the author pool.
> New authors are emerging, in spite of the negative viewpoints
> expressed in this thread, but I'd like to see if wiki can accelerate
> that.
>
>> Supporting sites are fine for developing new pieces of docs, but they
>> should
>> be only refered to as supporting sites, not main sources of information.
>
>
> I think we need to keep an open mind and be resourceful. If ASF can't
> provide what is needed, I think offers from wynona, outerthought, and
> anywhere-tech should be seriously considered and welcomed.
>
>> As we've discussed before, hopefully with forrest we will be able to
>> allow
>> inline notes to the Cocoon main site,
>> similarly to PHP's doc pages.
>
>
> Problem is, this isn't available, and Wiki tools and hosting solutions
> are -- right now -- thanks to the generosity of companies like
> anywhere-tech and outerthought.
>
> Again, we don't have a dynamic site with ASF to host the inline notes
> option yet: Forrest doesn't even have this capability yet. Ovidiu
> suggests he was developing this, as an example of flowscript, but it's
> based on Cocoon 2.1 head -- a bit too alpha for Forrest.
>
> -- Diana
>
>
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu larize it . . .)
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 07:09 AM, Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
> Cocoon's core Documentation belongs to the Cocoon main web site.
I think this is short-sighted. Take no offense, Ivelin, I thought this
way originally too. However, having struggled with Cocoon docs over the
past few months, given our current system, I'm eager to explore other
opportunities, particularly those that increase the author pool. New
authors are emerging, in spite of the negative viewpoints expressed in
this thread, but I'd like to see if wiki can accelerate that.
> Supporting sites are fine for developing new pieces of docs, but they
> should
> be only refered to as supporting sites, not main sources of information.
I think we need to keep an open mind and be resourceful. If ASF can't
provide what is needed, I think offers from wynona, outerthought, and
anywhere-tech should be seriously considered and welcomed.
> As we've discussed before, hopefully with forrest we will be able to
> allow
> inline notes to the Cocoon main site,
> similarly to PHP's doc pages.
Problem is, this isn't available, and Wiki tools and hosting solutions
are -- right now -- thanks to the generosity of companies like
anywhere-tech and outerthought.
Again, we don't have a dynamic site with ASF to host the inline notes
option yet: Forrest doesn't even have this capability yet. Ovidiu
suggests he was developing this, as an example of flowscript, but it's
based on Cocoon 2.1 head -- a bit too alpha for Forrest.
-- Diana
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu larize it . . .)
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
I agree with Ulrich to a certain extent.
Cocoon's core Documentation belongs to the Cocoon main web site.
Supporting sites are fine for developing new pieces of docs, but they should
be only refered to as supporting sites, not main sources of information.
As we've discussed before, hopefully with forrest we will be able to allow
inline notes to the Cocoon main site,
similarly to PHP's doc pages.
Ivelin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ulrich Mayring" <ul...@denic.de>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu
larize it . . .)
> Piroumian Konstantin wrote:
>
> > Your are wrong saying that Cocoon does not server its own website.
Cocoon's
> > site is generated using Cocoon's CLI as well as the Forrest site
> > (http://xml.apache.org/forrest or the recent version:
> > http://www.krysalis.org/forrest). The reason that the web site is not
served
> > as a web application is the infrastructure that has no running servlet
> > engine on the web server.
>
> As I said, there are probably good reasons. But from a marketing point
> of view it is still a show-stopper.
>
> > Cocoon can be used to implement a Wiki application, isn't it? The other
> > thing is that nobody had did it yet.
>
> And people wonder: why not? Why are there Wiki implementations in JSP,
> but none for Cocoon? If it were easy to do, surely someone could slap
> something together right now.
>
> > For lighter tasks a lighter tool is the best, but when you have a
complex
> > web application/site with customizable/personalizable content and
layout,
> > where you will need multimedia output of the same content etc. then
you'll
> > hardly be happy to do it using JSP even with its XML and Tiles like
taglibs.
>
> So, Cocoon is positioned as being only for large and complex websites?
>
> Ulrich
>
> --
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
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RE: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modularize it . . .)
Posted by Leigh Dodds <ld...@ingenta.com>.
> And people wonder: why not? Why are there Wiki implementations in JSP,
> but none for Cocoon? If it were easy to do, surely someone could slap
> something together right now.
Maybe the problem is that there's not enough documentation. Catch 22
wouldn't you say?
While I believe in eating my own dog food, I doubt whether this is the biggest
issue for someone evaluating Cocoon for deployment: stability and documentation
are the main issues. They're certainly the ones I've encountered in my internal
promotion of the project.
Cheers,
L.
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