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Posted to dev@velocity.apache.org by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> on 2006/10/10 19:05:15 UTC
query - default logging behavior
Hi,
As you can see with the log messages, we're making some headway on a
variety of Velocity issues this week.
One quick item for discussion. The default logging behavior is to
create a file "velocity.log" in the current directory. This is really
quite annoying in a webapp or integrated app. One of my colleagues
built a quick email routine using Velocity in a webapp. Now, I see a
"velocity.log" file created on my Linux server in whatever directory I
happened to be in when I started Tomcat!
Here's the suggestion. Switch the default logging to StdErr. I'd
suggested something similar in VELOCITY-403, but there was no
resolution. STDERR is preferred to STDOUT so that it doesn't mess up
existing log files if out is redirected.
Consequence... happier web developers. Possible problem - command
line apps which depend on Velocity.log being created don't see it.
Any comments?
WILL
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.
+1
On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> Quick followup on this, then. Maybe we should leave the Avalon Log
> Kit out of the velocity dependency jar?
>
> My objective is to make this simpler for casual or new users. I'd
> think at this point the Avalon approach doesn't add a lot of value for
> that crowd. Those who want it can copy it into their classpath
> explicitly.
>
> WILL
>
> On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> > So - if a user deploys this without the Avalong LogKit there's no
> > velocity.log automatically created?
> >
> > That seems ok to me.
> >
> > WILL
> >
> > On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I haven't much time for this today, but here's my initial thoughts:
> > >
> > > - As it is, my last bought of logging upgrades made the default
> > > lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> > > (which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
> > > seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
> > > file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
> > > property is set.
> > > - So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
> > > velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
> > > - I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
> > > trivial change either.
> > > - I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
> > > and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
> > > really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
> > > prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
> > >
> > > So, all that is to say that i currently am:
> > >
> > > -0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
> > > -1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
> > > +0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
> > > -1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
> > > +1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
> > >
> > > On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > As you can see with the log messages, we're making some headway on a
> > > > variety of Velocity issues this week.
> > > >
> > > > One quick item for discussion. The default logging behavior is to
> > > > create a file "velocity.log" in the current directory. This is really
> > > > quite annoying in a webapp or integrated app. One of my colleagues
> > > > built a quick email routine using Velocity in a webapp. Now, I see a
> > > > "velocity.log" file created on my Linux server in whatever directory I
> > > > happened to be in when I started Tomcat!
> > > >
> > > > Here's the suggestion. Switch the default logging to StdErr. I'd
> > > > suggested something similar in VELOCITY-403, but there was no
> > > > resolution. STDERR is preferred to STDOUT so that it doesn't mess up
> > > > existing log files if out is redirected.
> > > >
> > > > Consequence... happier web developers. Possible problem - command
> > > > line apps which depend on Velocity.log being created don't see it.
> > > >
> > > > Any comments?
> > > >
> > > > WILL
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Forio Business Simulations
> > > >
> > > > Will Glass-Husain
> > > > wglass@forio.com
> > > > www.forio.com
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Forio Business Simulations
> >
> > Will Glass-Husain
> > wglass@forio.com
> > www.forio.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Forio Business Simulations
>
> Will Glass-Husain
> wglass@forio.com
> www.forio.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Quick followup on this, then. Maybe we should leave the Avalon Log
Kit out of the velocity dependency jar?
My objective is to make this simpler for casual or new users. I'd
think at this point the Avalon approach doesn't add a lot of value for
that crowd. Those who want it can copy it into their classpath
explicitly.
WILL
On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> So - if a user deploys this without the Avalong LogKit there's no
> velocity.log automatically created?
>
> That seems ok to me.
>
> WILL
>
> On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I haven't much time for this today, but here's my initial thoughts:
> >
> > - As it is, my last bought of logging upgrades made the default
> > lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> > (which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
> > seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
> > file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
> > property is set.
> > - So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
> > velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
> > - I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
> > trivial change either.
> > - I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
> > and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
> > really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
> > prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
> >
> > So, all that is to say that i currently am:
> >
> > -0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
> > -1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
> > +0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
> > -1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
> > +1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
> >
> > On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > As you can see with the log messages, we're making some headway on a
> > > variety of Velocity issues this week.
> > >
> > > One quick item for discussion. The default logging behavior is to
> > > create a file "velocity.log" in the current directory. This is really
> > > quite annoying in a webapp or integrated app. One of my colleagues
> > > built a quick email routine using Velocity in a webapp. Now, I see a
> > > "velocity.log" file created on my Linux server in whatever directory I
> > > happened to be in when I started Tomcat!
> > >
> > > Here's the suggestion. Switch the default logging to StdErr. I'd
> > > suggested something similar in VELOCITY-403, but there was no
> > > resolution. STDERR is preferred to STDOUT so that it doesn't mess up
> > > existing log files if out is redirected.
> > >
> > > Consequence... happier web developers. Possible problem - command
> > > line apps which depend on Velocity.log being created don't see it.
> > >
> > > Any comments?
> > >
> > > WILL
> > >
> > > --
> > > Forio Business Simulations
> > >
> > > Will Glass-Husain
> > > wglass@forio.com
> > > www.forio.com
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Forio Business Simulations
>
> Will Glass-Husain
> wglass@forio.com
> www.forio.com
>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.
Yes, if neither LogKit (which is in velocity-dep, IIRC) nor Log4j are
available to Velocity, then there is no velocity.log automatically
created.
Formerly, if neither were available, Velocity would panic and quit.
Now it will fall back to first looking for JDK logging, and if it
can't find that, then it will use the new StandardOutLogChute.
On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> So - if a user deploys this without the Avalong LogKit there's no
> velocity.log automatically created?
>
> That seems ok to me.
>
> WILL
>
> On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I haven't much time for this today, but here's my initial thoughts:
> >
> > - As it is, my last bought of logging upgrades made the default
> > lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> > (which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
> > seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
> > file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
> > property is set.
> > - So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
> > velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
> > - I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
> > trivial change either.
> > - I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
> > and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
> > really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
> > prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
> >
> > So, all that is to say that i currently am:
> >
> > -0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
> > -1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
> > +0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
> > -1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
> > +1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
> >
> > On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > As you can see with the log messages, we're making some headway on a
> > > variety of Velocity issues this week.
> > >
> > > One quick item for discussion. The default logging behavior is to
> > > create a file "velocity.log" in the current directory. This is really
> > > quite annoying in a webapp or integrated app. One of my colleagues
> > > built a quick email routine using Velocity in a webapp. Now, I see a
> > > "velocity.log" file created on my Linux server in whatever directory I
> > > happened to be in when I started Tomcat!
> > >
> > > Here's the suggestion. Switch the default logging to StdErr. I'd
> > > suggested something similar in VELOCITY-403, but there was no
> > > resolution. STDERR is preferred to STDOUT so that it doesn't mess up
> > > existing log files if out is redirected.
> > >
> > > Consequence... happier web developers. Possible problem - command
> > > line apps which depend on Velocity.log being created don't see it.
> > >
> > > Any comments?
> > >
> > > WILL
> > >
> > > --
> > > Forio Business Simulations
> > >
> > > Will Glass-Husain
> > > wglass@forio.com
> > > www.forio.com
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Forio Business Simulations
>
> Will Glass-Husain
> wglass@forio.com
> www.forio.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
So - if a user deploys this without the Avalong LogKit there's no
velocity.log automatically created?
That seems ok to me.
WILL
On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't much time for this today, but here's my initial thoughts:
>
> - As it is, my last bought of logging upgrades made the default
> lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> (which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
> seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
> file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
> property is set.
> - So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
> velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
> - I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
> trivial change either.
> - I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
> and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
> really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
> prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
>
> So, all that is to say that i currently am:
>
> -0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
> -1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
> +0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
> -1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
> +1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
>
> On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As you can see with the log messages, we're making some headway on a
> > variety of Velocity issues this week.
> >
> > One quick item for discussion. The default logging behavior is to
> > create a file "velocity.log" in the current directory. This is really
> > quite annoying in a webapp or integrated app. One of my colleagues
> > built a quick email routine using Velocity in a webapp. Now, I see a
> > "velocity.log" file created on my Linux server in whatever directory I
> > happened to be in when I started Tomcat!
> >
> > Here's the suggestion. Switch the default logging to StdErr. I'd
> > suggested something similar in VELOCITY-403, but there was no
> > resolution. STDERR is preferred to STDOUT so that it doesn't mess up
> > existing log files if out is redirected.
> >
> > Consequence... happier web developers. Possible problem - command
> > line apps which depend on Velocity.log being created don't see it.
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > WILL
> >
> > --
> > Forio Business Simulations
> >
> > Will Glass-Husain
> > wglass@forio.com
> > www.forio.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: velocity-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: velocity-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Llewellyn Falco <is...@setgame.com>.
hey,
so you're sort of right about the reference errors, there are times for
both logging and erroring. and those times break down to development /
deploy. But as such, i still believe the default should be loud errors.
because if you are going to be silent, it's best to happen when someone has
explicitly stated it as such. but your right that there are times for both,
and the ability to chose is important.
llewellyn
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Hi Llewellyn!
Good input. You're probably right in many cases. I did a quick scan
looking for Log.error. Many of them are initialization-related errors
-- perhaps those should be exceptions instead. We just moved the
app-level exceptions to be RuntimeExceptions which gives us more
freedom to throw exceptions without changing the API. (this was one
of the obstacles in the past).
I disagree a bit about reference errors -- I think we should make it
optional whether or not they log a warning or stop page execution.
Right now they always do the former, but I'm working on a event
handler to allow the latter.
I think we've addressed your patches around the uberspector in svn
head at this point.
WILL
On 10/10/06, Llewellyn Falco <is...@setgame.com> wrote:
> I still would like to put in my vote that sending error's to the log is an
> incredibly BAD idea.
> If something is not working, it should be LOUDLY shown as an exception.
> If it is working I don't really need a log.
>
> The (velocity) log should be there for velocity developers (those
> programming the actual velocity code) not users.
>
> I don't ever care to see tomcat's log, I care to see the things I log while
> in tomcat.
>
> Most of all, many many many people do not check the log at all, let alone
> frequently.
>
> personally I swapped out the logging uberspect over 2 years ago, in favor of
> code that actually worked, rather than code that didn't appear broken, but
> actually was. but i know the default uberspect is still the logger, i
> believe the TestableUberspect is still in the test branch, and a regular
> user is probably just confused as to why something isn't working, double or
> triple so if the something is in an if or for loop.
>
> Llewellyn.
>
>
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>
>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Llewellyn Falco <is...@setgame.com>.
I still would like to put in my vote that sending error's to the log is an
incredibly BAD idea.
If something is not working, it should be LOUDLY shown as an exception.
If it is working I don't really need a log.
The (velocity) log should be there for velocity developers (those
programming the actual velocity code) not users.
I don't ever care to see tomcat's log, I care to see the things I log while
in tomcat.
Most of all, many many many people do not check the log at all, let alone
frequently.
personally I swapped out the logging uberspect over 2 years ago, in favor of
code that actually worked, rather than code that didn't appear broken, but
actually was. but i know the default uberspect is still the logger, i
believe the TestableUberspect is still in the test branch, and a regular
user is probably just confused as to why something isn't working, double or
triple so if the something is in an if or for loop.
Llewellyn.
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Alright, Nathan! Hack away!
WILL
On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10/10/06, Henning P. Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
> > > "Nathan Bubna" <nb...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > > >lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> > > >(which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
> > >
> > > This is IMHO not a good decision. If you want to have an application
> > > that writes to stdout, you get logging messages intermixed. I'd very
> > > much appreciate if we send all the logging to stderr.
> >
> > hmm. then let's punt the decision to users. we should have both
> > StandardOut and StandardErr LogChutes, or a StandardLogChute that can
> > be configured to direct output either way. choose whichever you wish
> > for the default, i pretty much always manually configure logging
> > anyway, so it won't bother me.
>
> actually, this was quick. so i took 5 minutes to write it. testing
> now... will check in shortly. by default all messages with level
> trace or higher will print to System.err
>
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>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.
On 10/10/06, Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/10/06, Henning P. Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
> > "Nathan Bubna" <nb...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > >lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> > >(which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
> >
> > This is IMHO not a good decision. If you want to have an application
> > that writes to stdout, you get logging messages intermixed. I'd very
> > much appreciate if we send all the logging to stderr.
>
> hmm. then let's punt the decision to users. we should have both
> StandardOut and StandardErr LogChutes, or a StandardLogChute that can
> be configured to direct output either way. choose whichever you wish
> for the default, i pretty much always manually configure logging
> anyway, so it won't bother me.
actually, this was quick. so i took 5 minutes to write it. testing
now... will check in shortly. by default all messages with level
trace or higher will print to System.err
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.
On 10/10/06, Henning P. Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
> "Nathan Bubna" <nb...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
> >(which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
>
> This is IMHO not a good decision. If you want to have an application
> that writes to stdout, you get logging messages intermixed. I'd very
> much appreciate if we send all the logging to stderr.
hmm. then let's punt the decision to users. we should have both
StandardOut and StandardErr LogChutes, or a StandardLogChute that can
be configured to direct output either way. choose whichever you wish
for the default, i pretty much always manually configure logging
anyway, so it won't bother me.
> If you run velocity-dep on JDK 1.4 (which is probably one of the most
> common usage cases that we have), we will send logging to JDK 1.4
> logging. Also the default log setting are different for Avalon (debug
> and up), Stdout (trace and up) and JDK logging (only info and up).
>
> >seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
> >file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
> >property is set.
> > - So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
> >velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
> > - I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
> >trivial change either.
> > - I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
> >and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
> >really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
> >prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
>
> >So, all that is to say that i currently am:
>
> >-0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
>
> I'm fine here.
i think Will's new suggestion of just removing LogKit from
velocity-dep.jar is better.
> >-1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
>
> I disagree here. The current 1.5-dev release changes the behaviour
> compared to 1.4. 1.4 never logged anything to stdout. So if you have
> an app that uses stdout for actual results, these will break using
> 1.5. That is bad and will upset users.
not true. it will upset no one, because no previously functional
behavior has changed in this regard. Velocity will only log to stdout
if and only if LogKit, Log4j, and JDK logging are all unavailable. in
1.4, Velocity would panic and quit in such a situation. That was what
was bad and upsetting to users. :)
> >+0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
>
> >-1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
>
> I'd agree here.
>
> >+1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
>
> We will have to do that anyway... :-)
>
> Best regards
> Henning
> --
> Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
> hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
>
> RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
> Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
>
> Social behaviour: Bavarians can be extremely egalitarian and folksy.
> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
> Most Franconians do not like to be called Bavarians.
> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconia
>
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
"Nathan Bubna" <nb...@gmail.com> writes:
>lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
>(which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
This is IMHO not a good decision. If you want to have an application
that writes to stdout, you get logging messages intermixed. I'd very
much appreciate if we send all the logging to stderr.
If you run velocity-dep on JDK 1.4 (which is probably one of the most
common usage cases that we have), we will send logging to JDK 1.4
logging. Also the default log setting are different for Avalon (debug
and up), Stdout (trace and up) and JDK logging (only info and up).
>seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
>file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
>property is set.
> - So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
>velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
> - I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
>trivial change either.
> - I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
>and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
>really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
>prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
>So, all that is to say that i currently am:
>-0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
I'm fine here.
>-1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
I disagree here. The current 1.5-dev release changes the behaviour
compared to 1.4. 1.4 never logged anything to stdout. So if you have
an app that uses stdout for actual results, these will break using
1.5. That is bad and will upset users.
>+0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
>-1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
I'd agree here.
>+1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
We will have to do that anyway... :-)
Best regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
Social behaviour: Bavarians can be extremely egalitarian and folksy.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
Most Franconians do not like to be called Bavarians.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconia
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Re: query - default logging behavior
Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.
I haven't much time for this today, but here's my initial thoughts:
- As it is, my last bought of logging upgrades made the default
lookup order: LogKit, Log4j, JDK logging, and StandardOutLogChute
(which sends < error to Std.out and > error to Std.err). This still
seems appropriate for me and will already not create a velocity.log
file unless Avalon LogKit or Log4j are available and a "runtime.log"
property is set.
- So killing the velocity.log file is as easy as not using
velocity-dep.jar and/or setting "runtime.log = "
- I know this only sort of a B.C. concern, but it isn't really a
trivial change either.
- I'm of the view that Std.err is for errors (and maybe warnings),
and is Std.out really redirected that often? And when it is, is that
really our concern? Seems to me anyone redirecting Std.out should be
prepared for surprises or least they shouldn't be critical.
So, all that is to say that i currently am:
-0 on removing Log4j and LogKit from the default lookup order in 1.5
-1 on punting trace/info/debug messages to Std.err
+0 on punting warning messsages to Std.err
-1 on putting StandardOutLogChute or kin before JdkLogChute in the lookup order
+1 for tweaking this later on when we drop LogSystem support et al
On 10/10/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As you can see with the log messages, we're making some headway on a
> variety of Velocity issues this week.
>
> One quick item for discussion. The default logging behavior is to
> create a file "velocity.log" in the current directory. This is really
> quite annoying in a webapp or integrated app. One of my colleagues
> built a quick email routine using Velocity in a webapp. Now, I see a
> "velocity.log" file created on my Linux server in whatever directory I
> happened to be in when I started Tomcat!
>
> Here's the suggestion. Switch the default logging to StdErr. I'd
> suggested something similar in VELOCITY-403, but there was no
> resolution. STDERR is preferred to STDOUT so that it doesn't mess up
> existing log files if out is redirected.
>
> Consequence... happier web developers. Possible problem - command
> line apps which depend on Velocity.log being created don't see it.
>
> Any comments?
>
> WILL
>
> --
> Forio Business Simulations
>
> Will Glass-Husain
> wglass@forio.com
> www.forio.com
>
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