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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> on 2016/11/25 14:26:25 UTC
Incoming Website Changes
All,
I'm planning to start committing a number of website changes. These
changes are a summary of my experience bootstrapping podlings, questions
I've received (both on and off mailing list) from people trying to do
setup, and ways to leverage new infra services.
Here's a summary of the current changes:
Mentor Guide: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html
This is the most substantial area changed. The page has been reordered to
list the steps to take in the order to take them. The current format has
it all over and makes it hard to follow when you should do what. In
addition, I've added links to reporeq, Incubator ML requests, and
lists.apache.org
PPMC Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
I added a section clarifying binding votes within the PPMC, stating that
they're only binding for people issues, not releases.
Proposal Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html
I updated the champion section to clarify that champion should be found at
the beginning of proposal formation, which is earlier than the current
"before submitted" step. I also clarified that the champion's role is
around the proposal and entering the incubator, separate from mentors
(something we had agreed to a while ago, but was missing in this guide).
Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
I plan to commit these changes later today, and make more changes soon to
keep more documents up to date.
John
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Jim Apple <jb...@cloudera.com>.
I would be delighted if the answer became cut and dry, modulo the fact
that if the cut-and-dry document became a laundry list for everyone's
favorite thing, that could move the goalposts pretty far for existing
podlings.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:49 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> So personally I think its great to get input from current podlings on a
> subject like this.
>
> I've made some proposed changes on a separate thread, but I almost think
> between your comments and Roman's comments... should we just drop the
> current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents? There
> shouldn't be opinions on what makes a functioning podling, it should be
> pretty cut and dry:
>
> - public discussions
> - apache licensed code
> - made successful releases without issues
> - using ASF infra resources
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:17 PM Jim Apple <jb...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
>> One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate.
>> As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the
>> lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to
>> understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy
>> doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a
>> tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide.
>>
>> Consider this single snippet from The Policy:
>>
>> "Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community.
>> (requirement on minimum number of such releases?)
>> Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official
>> Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans
>> are OK.
>> Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities,
>> particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that
>> projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")."
>>
>> Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there
>> an embedded question in The Policy at all?
>>
>> Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice.
>>
>> Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias
>> now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion?
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <
>> johndament@apache.org>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
>> >> johndament@apache.org>
>> >> >> > > wrote:
>> >> >> > > >...
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > > Graduation Guide
>> >> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
>> >> >> graduation.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation
>> >> step.
>> >> >> > I'm
>> >> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said
>> >> that it
>> >> >> > can
>> >> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with
>> >> your
>> >> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
>> >> >> > members.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some Directors != The Board
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a
>> requirement
>> >> for
>> >> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement
>> either.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
>> >> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Says who?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide,
>> not a
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
>> >> Model"
>> >> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a
>> >> link.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto
>> policy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings
>> actions
>> >> and
>> >> >> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving
>> into
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist
>> section.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thoughts?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
>> >> like
>> >> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors
>> in
>> >> your
>> >> >> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the
>> >> > following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the
>> >> checklist
>> >> > section.
>> >>
>> >> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
>> >> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
>> >> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
>> >> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
>> >> and mix the two.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I've gotten the same type of questions. The problem is that this line
>> > already exists in the graduation "guide"
>> >
>> > This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
>> > actual policy document)
>> >
>> > Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Roman.
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>
>>
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Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Stian Soiland-Reyes <st...@apache.org>.
I think sadly both our policies and guidance are a bit outdated, and
for instance very SVN-centric - but I'm all for a split as that means
it's at least easier to update the guidance - updating policy (beyond
typos) is presumably something that needs to be agreed by IPMC before
publishing.
The policy should not be too bound by current technology and
infrastructure, but should focus on the community-side. The guidance
can be more exemplified.
This distinction could then be noted in the documents similar to W3C
specs who have "This section is non-normative".
Agree with Bertrand's suggestion of starting with a minimal policy
document, but of course that means more potential overlap and
confusion until the old ones are gone. (as well as perhaps longer
email fights? :)
On 30 November 2016 at 07:38, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:49 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>> .. should we just drop the
>> current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents?...
>
> Clearly separating policy from everything else sounds good to me, but
> the policy docs should then be as concise as possible.
>
> Dunno if that can happen by just remixing the existing content, or if
> it's better to start a new minimal policy document or section now.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
Stian Soiland-Reyes
http://orcid.org/0000-0001-9842-9718
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Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:37 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:38 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:49 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> > .. should we just drop the
>> > current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents?...
>>
>> Clearly separating policy from everything else sounds good to me, but
>> the policy docs should then be as concise as possible.
>>
>
> I think the problem (my opinion) is that the policy guide is too concise,
> but the guide documents are too wordy. If we added more text to the policy
> and consolidated there on the processes required then we may end up with
> better documents.
>
>
>>
>> Dunno if that can happen by just remixing the existing content, or if
>> it's better to start a new minimal policy document or section now.
>>
>
> I'm thinking a new document.
+1 to that. I'd be more than happy to help review, but sadly I can't commit
to create this kind of new document.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:38 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:49 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > .. should we just drop the
> > current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents?...
>
> Clearly separating policy from everything else sounds good to me, but
> the policy docs should then be as concise as possible.
>
I think the problem (my opinion) is that the policy guide is too concise,
but the guide documents are too wordy. If we added more text to the policy
and consolidated there on the processes required then we may end up with
better documents.
>
> Dunno if that can happen by just remixing the existing content, or if
> it's better to start a new minimal policy document or section now.
>
I'm thinking a new document.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:49 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> .. should we just drop the
> current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents?...
Clearly separating policy from everything else sounds good to me, but
the policy docs should then be as concise as possible.
Dunno if that can happen by just remixing the existing content, or if
it's better to start a new minimal policy document or section now.
-Bertrand
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Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
So personally I think its great to get input from current podlings on a
subject like this.
I've made some proposed changes on a separate thread, but I almost think
between your comments and Roman's comments... should we just drop the
current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents? There
shouldn't be opinions on what makes a functioning podling, it should be
pretty cut and dry:
- public discussions
- apache licensed code
- made successful releases without issues
- using ASF infra resources
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:17 PM Jim Apple <jb...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate.
> As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the
> lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to
> understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy
> doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a
> tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide.
>
> Consider this single snippet from The Policy:
>
> "Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community.
> (requirement on minimum number of such releases?)
> Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official
> Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans
> are OK.
> Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities,
> particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that
> projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")."
>
> Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there
> an embedded question in The Policy at all?
>
> Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice.
>
> Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias
> now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion?
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <
> johndament@apache.org>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
> >> johndament@apache.org>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > Graduation Guide
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
> >> >> graduation.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation
> >> step.
> >> >> > I'm
> >> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said
> >> that it
> >> >> > can
> >> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with
> >> your
> >> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
> >> >> > members.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Some Directors != The Board
> >> >>
> >> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a
> requirement
> >> for
> >> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement
> either.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
> >> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Says who?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide,
> not a
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
> >> Model"
> >> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
> >> >>
> >> >> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a
> >> link.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto
> policy.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings
> actions
> >> and
> >> >> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving
> into
> >> >> the
> >> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist
> section.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thoughts?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
> >> like
> >> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors
> in
> >> your
> >> >> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the
> >> > following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the
> >> checklist
> >> > section.
> >>
> >> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
> >> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
> >> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
> >> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
> >> and mix the two.
> >>
> >
> > I've gotten the same type of questions. The problem is that this line
> > already exists in the graduation "guide"
> >
> > This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
> > actual policy document)
> >
> > Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Roman.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Jim Apple <jb...@cloudera.com>.
One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate.
As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the
lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to
understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy
doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a
tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide.
Consider this single snippet from The Policy:
"Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community.
(requirement on minimum number of such releases?)
Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official
Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans
are OK.
Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities,
particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that
projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")."
Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there
an embedded question in The Policy at all?
Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice.
Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias
now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion?
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
>> johndament@apache.org>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > >...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Graduation Guide
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
>> >> graduation.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation
>> step.
>> >> > I'm
>> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said
>> that it
>> >> > can
>> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>> >> >
>> >> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with
>> your
>> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
>> >> > members.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Some Directors != The Board
>> >>
>> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a requirement
>> for
>> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement either.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
>> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Says who?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not a
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
>> Model"
>> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
>> >>
>> >> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a
>> link.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto policy.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions
>> and
>> >> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving into
>> >> the
>> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thoughts?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
>> like
>> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors in
>> your
>> >> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the
>> > following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the
>> checklist
>> > section.
>>
>> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
>> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
>> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
>> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
>> and mix the two.
>>
>
> I've gotten the same type of questions. The problem is that this line
> already exists in the graduation "guide"
>
> This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
> actual policy document)
>
> Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
>
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
> johndament@apache.org>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >...
> >> > >
> >> > > > Graduation Guide
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
> >> graduation.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation
> step.
> >> > I'm
> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said
> that it
> >> > can
> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
> >> >
> >> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with
> your
> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
> >> > members.
> >>
> >>
> >> Some Directors != The Board
> >>
> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a requirement
> for
> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement either.
> >>
> >>
> >> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Says who?
> >>
> >>
> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not a
> >> >
> >>
> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
> Model"
> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
> >>
> >> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a
> link.
> >> >
> >>
> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto policy.
> >>
> >>
> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions
> and
> >> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving into
> >> the
> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
> >> >
> >> > Thoughts?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
> like
> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors in
> your
> >> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
> >>
> >>
> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the
> > following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the
> checklist
> > section.
>
> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
> and mix the two.
>
I've gotten the same type of questions. The problem is that this line
already exists in the graduation "guide"
This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
actual policy document)
Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
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>
>
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >...
>> > >
>> > > > Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>> > > >
>> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
>> graduation.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation step.
>> > I'm
>> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said that it
>> > can
>> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>> >
>> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with your
>> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
>> > members.
>>
>>
>> Some Directors != The Board
>>
>> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a requirement for
>> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement either.
>>
>>
>> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
>> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
>> >
>>
>> Says who?
>>
>>
>> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not a
>> >
>>
>> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity Model"
>> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
>>
>> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a link.
>> >
>>
>> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto policy.
>>
>>
>> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions and
>> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving into
>> the
>> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>>
>> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something like
>> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors in your
>> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
>>
>>
> I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the
> following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the checklist
> section.
The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
and mix the two.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >...
> > >
> > > > Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
> > > >
> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
> graduation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation step.
> > I'm
> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said that it
> > can
> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
> >
> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with your
> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
> > members.
>
>
> Some Directors != The Board
>
> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a requirement for
> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement either.
>
>
> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
> >
>
> Says who?
>
>
> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not a
> >
>
> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity Model"
> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
>
> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a link.
> >
>
> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto policy.
>
>
> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions and
> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving into
> the
> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
>
> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something like
> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors in your
> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
>
>
I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the
following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the checklist
section.
Podlings who are unsure if they are ready to graduate may want to consider
completing the <a href="
http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html"
target="_new">Apache Project Maturity Model</a>. You may find this to be a
useful guide when looking at various factors in your podling's community.
> Cheers,
> -g
>
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >...
> >
> > > Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
> > >
> > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
> > >
> >
> > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation step.
> I'm
> > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said that it
> can
> > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>
> I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with your
> perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
> members.
Some Directors != The Board
The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a requirement for
graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement either.
> The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
> applies to podlings planning to graduate.
>
Says who?
> I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not a
>
On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity Model"
as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a link.
>
By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto policy.
> I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions and
> behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving into the
> "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
>
> Thoughts?
>
Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something like
"You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors in your
podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
Cheers,
-g
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >...
>
> > Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
> >
> > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
> >
>
> There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation step. I'm
> not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said that it can
> be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>
I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with your
perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
members. The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
applies to podlings planning to graduate.
I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not a
policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a link.
I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions and
behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving into the
"Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
Thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:
>...
> Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>
> Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
>
There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation step. I'm
not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said that it can
be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
Cheers,
-g
Re: Fwd: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Jim Apple <jb...@cloudera.com>.
Greg Stein was also not enthused about it. The thread can be followed here:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/4d7c15ba541cff2f476214491f4f570b5165b700c589e98377ccffab@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Todd Lipcon <to...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> If you follow the thread on the incubator list you'll see that it's not a
> new requirement, just a set of things to think about. Changes are afoot to
> the wording to clarify that, since you're right that the current placement
> makes it sound like a requirement.
>
> On Nov 25, 2016 9:55 PM, "Jim Apple" <jb...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
>> Bad news for podlings: the incubator has now added a vague and
>> arbitrarily-ordered "maturity model" to the graduation requirements.
>> You can puzzle over it here:
>>
>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
>>
>> For instance, "Complete the Apache Project Maturity Model" is on the
>> "Graduation Check List"
>> (http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html), but the model
>> itself says, "Note that we try to avoid using the word "must" below.
>> The model describes the state of a mature project, as opposed to a set
>> of rules."
>>
>> It also says "A mature Apache project complies with all the elements
>> of this model" and "Convenience binaries can be distributed alongside
>> source code but they are not Apache Releases -- they are just a
>> convenience provided with no guarantee." Your guess is as good as mine
>> as to how NOT distributing binaries is level 4 of "Releases" while
>> "Releases are signed and/or distributed along with digests", which
>> requires actual work, is only level 3.
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> Date: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 6:26 AM
>> Subject: Incoming Website Changes
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I'm planning to start committing a number of website changes. These
>> changes are a summary of my experience bootstrapping podlings, questions
>> I've received (both on and off mailing list) from people trying to do
>> setup, and ways to leverage new infra services.
>>
>> Here's a summary of the current changes:
>>
>> Mentor Guide: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html
>>
>> This is the most substantial area changed. The page has been reordered to
>> list the steps to take in the order to take them. The current format has
>> it all over and makes it hard to follow when you should do what. In
>> addition, I've added links to reporeq, Incubator ML requests, and
>> lists.apache.org
>>
>> PPMC Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>
>> I added a section clarifying binding votes within the PPMC, stating that
>> they're only binding for people issues, not releases.
>>
>> Proposal Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html
>>
>> I updated the champion section to clarify that champion should be found at
>> the beginning of proposal formation, which is earlier than the current
>> "before submitted" step. I also clarified that the champion's role is
>> around the proposal and entering the incubator, separate from mentors
>> (something we had agreed to a while ago, but was missing in this guide).
>>
>> Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>>
>> Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
>>
>>
>> I plan to commit these changes later today, and make more changes soon to
>> keep more documents up to date.
>>
>> John
>>
Re: Fwd: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Todd Lipcon <to...@cloudera.com>.
If you follow the thread on the incubator list you'll see that it's not a
new requirement, just a set of things to think about. Changes are afoot to
the wording to clarify that, since you're right that the current placement
makes it sound like a requirement.
On Nov 25, 2016 9:55 PM, "Jim Apple" <jb...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> Bad news for podlings: the incubator has now added a vague and
> arbitrarily-ordered "maturity model" to the graduation requirements.
> You can puzzle over it here:
>
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
>
> For instance, "Complete the Apache Project Maturity Model" is on the
> "Graduation Check List"
> (http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html), but the model
> itself says, "Note that we try to avoid using the word "must" below.
> The model describes the state of a mature project, as opposed to a set
> of rules."
>
> It also says "A mature Apache project complies with all the elements
> of this model" and "Convenience binaries can be distributed alongside
> source code but they are not Apache Releases -- they are just a
> convenience provided with no guarantee." Your guess is as good as mine
> as to how NOT distributing binaries is level 4 of "Releases" while
> "Releases are signed and/or distributed along with digests", which
> requires actual work, is only level 3.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> Date: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 6:26 AM
> Subject: Incoming Website Changes
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>
>
> All,
>
> I'm planning to start committing a number of website changes. These
> changes are a summary of my experience bootstrapping podlings, questions
> I've received (both on and off mailing list) from people trying to do
> setup, and ways to leverage new infra services.
>
> Here's a summary of the current changes:
>
> Mentor Guide: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html
>
> This is the most substantial area changed. The page has been reordered to
> list the steps to take in the order to take them. The current format has
> it all over and makes it hard to follow when you should do what. In
> addition, I've added links to reporeq, Incubator ML requests, and
> lists.apache.org
>
> PPMC Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>
> I added a section clarifying binding votes within the PPMC, stating that
> they're only binding for people issues, not releases.
>
> Proposal Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html
>
> I updated the champion section to clarify that champion should be found at
> the beginning of proposal formation, which is earlier than the current
> "before submitted" step. I also clarified that the champion's role is
> around the proposal and entering the incubator, separate from mentors
> (something we had agreed to a while ago, but was missing in this guide).
>
> Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>
> Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
>
>
> I plan to commit these changes later today, and make more changes soon to
> keep more documents up to date.
>
> John
>
Fwd: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by Jim Apple <jb...@cloudera.com>.
Bad news for podlings: the incubator has now added a vague and
arbitrarily-ordered "maturity model" to the graduation requirements.
You can puzzle over it here:
http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
For instance, "Complete the Apache Project Maturity Model" is on the
"Graduation Check List"
(http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html), but the model
itself says, "Note that we try to avoid using the word "must" below.
The model describes the state of a mature project, as opposed to a set
of rules."
It also says "A mature Apache project complies with all the elements
of this model" and "Convenience binaries can be distributed alongside
source code but they are not Apache Releases -- they are just a
convenience provided with no guarantee." Your guess is as good as mine
as to how NOT distributing binaries is level 4 of "Releases" while
"Releases are signed and/or distributed along with digests", which
requires actual work, is only level 3.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
Date: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 6:26 AM
Subject: Incoming Website Changes
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
All,
I'm planning to start committing a number of website changes. These
changes are a summary of my experience bootstrapping podlings, questions
I've received (both on and off mailing list) from people trying to do
setup, and ways to leverage new infra services.
Here's a summary of the current changes:
Mentor Guide: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html
This is the most substantial area changed. The page has been reordered to
list the steps to take in the order to take them. The current format has
it all over and makes it hard to follow when you should do what. In
addition, I've added links to reporeq, Incubator ML requests, and
lists.apache.org
PPMC Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
I added a section clarifying binding votes within the PPMC, stating that
they're only binding for people issues, not releases.
Proposal Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html
I updated the champion section to clarify that champion should be found at
the beginning of proposal formation, which is earlier than the current
"before submitted" step. I also clarified that the champion's role is
around the proposal and entering the incubator, separate from mentors
(something we had agreed to a while ago, but was missing in this guide).
Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
I plan to commit these changes later today, and make more changes soon to
keep more documents up to date.
John
Re: Incoming Website Changes
Posted by 冯嘉 <fe...@gmail.com>.
great job. thanks john. all parts will greatly help for our guys project start incubation, graduation:)
发自我的 iPhone
> 在 2016年11月25日，22:26，John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> 写道：
>
> All,
>
> I'm planning to start committing a number of website changes. These
> changes are a summary of my experience bootstrapping podlings, questions
> I've received (both on and off mailing list) from people trying to do
> setup, and ways to leverage new infra services.
>
> Here's a summary of the current changes:
>
> Mentor Guide: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html
>
> This is the most substantial area changed. The page has been reordered to
> list the steps to take in the order to take them. The current format has
> it all over and makes it hard to follow when you should do what. In
> addition, I've added links to reporeq, Incubator ML requests, and
> lists.apache.org
>
> PPMC Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>
> I added a section clarifying binding votes within the PPMC, stating that
> they're only binding for people issues, not releases.
>
> Proposal Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html
>
> I updated the champion section to clarify that champion should be found at
> the beginning of proposal formation, which is earlier than the current
> "before submitted" step. I also clarified that the champion's role is
> around the proposal and entering the incubator, separate from mentors
> (something we had agreed to a while ago, but was missing in this guide).
>
> Graduation Guide http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>
> Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for graduation.
>
>
> I plan to commit these changes later today, and make more changes soon to
> keep more documents up to date.
>
> John
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