what wicket is (was: Re: [VOTE] Accept Wicket into the Incubator)

[Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>]

Greg,

Basically wicket creates a session for every user and then attaches a java
object graph to that session, with parts shared between sessions. Then there
are some mechanisms for attaching "id"-ed objects in that graph to "id"-ed
elements in an HTML template, and rendering directions for the "merge" between
the template and the object graph. Basically you have java developers pretending
the web is like swing (eg stateful UI), web designers designing the "fluff"
around the "active UI" bits, and then various kinds of magic in the middle to
make that work.

Why, one might even say its a little bit like the google web toolkit, except
its also a little bit more "full stack" like ruby on rails, and fully open
source. The template language made me think of kid (you know the python one),
only its a lot simpler and doesn't allow embedding of source code.

Or like .net web development without ASP and visual basic.

Of course, once you have a java object graph with all your data in it, using
some kind of object persistence thing (probably using OR mapping) is the next
step towards not having to think about the web and just doing java development.

Wicket goes quite far that way; you don't even need to know how to write XML
files or even valid XHTML in order to use it. And making things "AJAX" is all
but transparent (since the request/response is hidden, making it into another
kind of request/response is not so difficult).

Its uber cool if you want to make java developers build web applications
quickly. Its not so cool if you want to use XSLT or similar stuff (use cocoon),
process 100s of megabytes of XML documents (use cocoon), or want some kind of
java-ish programming model which still keeps request/response somewhere in there
(use struts or a similar action-based framework), or want efficient memory use
scaling up to 1000s of concurrent users (in which case, don't put any state in
java objects and don't use any framework like any of these, in fact, anything
servlet-based kinda sucks automatically).

The project at the ASF that comes closest is tapestry, but I haven't ever fully
understood what tapestry actually is (I know it builds on hivemind which is
somewhat like excalibur/avalon/osgi automatically making it different from wicket
since wicket is not "IOC"), so I can't comment further.

Wicket *is* different. Whether this is the right way to do things is
debatable, but I would say now is not the right time for the incubator to start
having those kinds of debates. Various ASF members like working this way, are
working this way, and are backing this proposal. Trust darwinism.

LSD

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Re: what wicket is (was: Re: [VOTE] Accept Wicket into the Incubator)

[Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>]

On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 04:46:13AM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:
> >Whether this is the right way to do things is
> >debatable, but I would say now is not the right time for the incubator to 
> >start
> >having those kinds of debates.
> 
> I'm not trying to start a debate, nor engaging in any debate. I
> offered my opinion.

C'mon greg, opinions that are not shared often start a debate! Offering
an opinion without wanting follow-up is kinda hard around here...

> The model sounds cool, but I don't happen to like
> it. I am fine explaining offlist cuz it really is irrelevant here, as
> you note.
> 
> >Various ASF members like working this way, are
> >working this way, and are backing this proposal. Trust darwinism.
> 
> More power to 'em. I get a vote just like any other Incubator PMC
> member. Please don't attempt to deny me that.

Wouldn't dare. You said something which read to me like "+0 pending FOO"
and my "trust darwinism" was ment more as a "don't worry about the 'pending'
stuff or reading my whole e-mail in detail, we'll be fine anyhow". I'm such
an arse with words.

> Just because I didn't +1
> the proposal doesn't mean you should try to coerce me into changing my
> vote.

Not trying to. But like anyone on this planet, the co-operative process
we use says that I'm completely free to try to if I wanted. If I was a
wicket developer and totally convinced of how it absolutely is the best
thing since sliced bread I would probably try to do that. Which is very
much a healthy response. Evangelism, baby!

> Darwin also says that proposals could be voted down :-)  (but
> I'm not even doing that... it's just a -0 for cryin' out loud)

Sssh! Speak softly, or you might provoke more discussion! :-P

> To be honest, I am rather amazed at the amount of text written because
> one single person votes -0 rather than +1. Seriously... wow. God
> forbid somebody votes -1. What happens then? Ten times as many words
> written to convince them of the error of their ways? What are we
> saying to people: don't vote anything but +1 or your inbox will get
> slammed? Follow the groupmind, or you shall be mailbombed? Personally,
> I'd prefer an environment MUCH more accepting of alternate votes --
> that means you'll actually *get* those votes, rather than people being
> quiet, too afraid to counter the majority.

You didn't just -1 or -0, you did so conditionally on not having some kind
of understanding of differences or something. I didn't care much for the
actual vote (its going to get in anyway), but the conditional was interesting
to me. I figured the same conditional might be true for other people as well
(wicket simply is a bit weird, and I'd just spent time figuring out *how* it
is weird) so it was quite worthy to spend an e-mail on it irrespective of any 
vote going on.

I personally couldn't be more accepting of -1s, especially when it concerns
things I don't have a stake in, haven't worked on, and haven't proposed, and if
this really is an environment that isn't similary accepting we should change
that, but I hardly see a mailbomb around here. Of course, we might have one
now because of self-fulfilling prophecy and all that ;)

*ducks*

LSD

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RE: what wicket is (was: Re: [VOTE] Accept Wicket into the Incubator)

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

> The model sounds cool, but I don't happen to like it.

Fair enough.  :-)

There are several projects in the Incubator for which I could personally say
the same thing.  But other ASF Members like them, and that's all good.  :-)

With respect to Wicket, well I happen to like JavaServer Pages, so you can
imagine my thoughts on the topic.  ;-)  But then see above.  :-)

	--- Noel



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Re: what wicket is (was: Re: [VOTE] Accept Wicket into the Incubator)

[Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>]

On 8/25/06, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>...
> Wicket *is* different.

Excellent. Thanks a bunch for the thorough reply and comparison
points. Very helpful.

> Whether this is the right way to do things is
> debatable, but I would say now is not the right time for the incubator to start
> having those kinds of debates.

I'm not trying to start a debate, nor engaging in any debate. I
offered my opinion. The model sounds cool, but I don't happen to like
it. I am fine explaining offlist cuz it really is irrelevant here, as
you note.

> Various ASF members like working this way, are
> working this way, and are backing this proposal. Trust darwinism.

More power to 'em. I get a vote just like any other Incubator PMC
member. Please don't attempt to deny me that. Just because I didn't +1
the proposal doesn't mean you should try to coerce me into changing my
vote. Darwin also says that proposals could be voted down :-)  (but
I'm not even doing that... it's just a -0 for cryin' out loud)

To be honest, I am rather amazed at the amount of text written because
one single person votes -0 rather than +1. Seriously... wow. God
forbid somebody votes -1. What happens then? Ten times as many words
written to convince them of the error of their ways? What are we
saying to people: don't vote anything but +1 or your inbox will get
slammed? Follow the groupmind, or you shall be mailbombed? Personally,
I'd prefer an environment MUCH more accepting of alternate votes --
that means you'll actually *get* those votes, rather than people being
quiet, too afraid to counter the majority.

Cheers,
-g

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

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