Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com>]

(Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)

Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.

From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.

The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
incubation.

By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
the DB PMC?

Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.

Julian

On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Julian,

I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.

Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.

You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.

I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.

Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.

Cheers,
-Rick


On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:

Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?

SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
releases per year.

In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
governance, branding and IP ownership.  Based on its GitHub URL,
people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
but we are just short of critical mass.

We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
example).

Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
projects.

Julian

[1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline

[2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/

[3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Dave Fisher <wa...@apache.org>]

Hi -

Notes interjected.

> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 

Including through IP Clearance.

> 
> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
> 
> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.

Petri is designed for existing communities and not code bases.

It is up to the DB PMC how they wish to decide how to onboard a new community.

More below.

> 
> Warm regards,
> Craig
> 
>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>> 
>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>> 
>>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>> 
>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>> incubation.
>>> 
>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>> the DB PMC?

Graduating to an existing project is a vote of the existing PMC.

>>> 
>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.

Yes. But the DB PMC can decide how to give your community the needed PMC votes.

In the end the three choices will still require a vote of the DB PMC and new PMC members from the new subproject.

Regards,
Dave


>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> 
>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey Julian,
>>> 
>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>> 
>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>> 
>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>> 
>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>> 
>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Rick
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>> 
>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>> releases per year.
>>> 
>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>> governance, branding and IP ownership.  Based on its GitHub URL,
>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>> 
>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>> example).
>>> 
>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>> projects.
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> 
>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>> 
>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>> 
>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Craig L Russell
> clr@apache.org
> 

Re: Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

The silence on the list answers my question. DB is not interested in SQLLine as a sub-project.

Thanks for your time, everyone!

On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion. 
> 
> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
> 
> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> 
> > On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 
> > 
> > But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
> > 
> > You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
> > 
> > Warm regards,
> > Craig
> > 
> >> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
> >> 
> >> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> >>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
> >>> 
> >>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
> >>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
> >>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
> >>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
> >>> 
> >>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
> >>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
> >>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
> >>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
> >>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
> >>> incubation.
> >>> 
> >>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
> >>> the DB PMC?
> >>> 
> >>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
> >>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
> >>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
> >>> 
> >>> Julian
> >>> 
> >>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Hey Julian,
> >>> 
> >>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
> >>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
> >>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
> >>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
> >>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
> >>> 
> >>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
> >>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
> >>> 
> >>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
> >>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
> >>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
> >>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
> >>> 
> >>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
> >>> 
> >>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
> >>> 
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> -Rick
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
> >>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
> >>> 
> >>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
> >>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
> >>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
> >>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
> >>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
> >>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
> >>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
> >>> releases per year.
> >>> 
> >>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
> >>> governance, branding and IP ownership.  Based on its GitHub URL,
> >>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
> >>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
> >>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
> >>> but we are just short of critical mass.
> >>> 
> >>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
> >>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
> >>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
> >>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
> >>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
> >>> example).
> >>> 
> >>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
> >>> projects.
> >>> 
> >>> Julian
> >>> 
> >>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
> >>> 
> >>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
> >>> 
> >>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
> >>> 
> >> 
> > 
> > Craig L Russell
> > clr@apache.org
> > 
> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>]

Makes sense to me. Yes, I know it's 4/1 but I would support this proposal.

Craig

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 5:44 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Going through the incubator makes sense. I would probably be champion and a mentor, and given the experience of the project members, there’s not much Apache Way to be taught. We can complete the necessary admin tasks (IP check, name search, etc.) and make a release via the Incubator.
> 
> In the incubation proposal [1], DB would be the Sponsoring Entity. Per the proposal template, the DB PMC would need to vote whether to sponsor.
> 
> Julian
> 
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/New+Podling+Proposal
> 
>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> The hard part about bringing in sub-projects is what the incubator focuses on:
>> importing the code base into apache repositories
>> getting the proper licensing in place for the code
>> making releases with attention to vetting, voting, and staging
>> working as a community
>> 
>> If we have suitable mentors for SQLLine it should be a quick trip through the incubator. And the DB project can adopt it at graduation, assuming that we can get the required consensus among the DB PMC members. 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Craig
>> 
>>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 4:50 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Petri seems to be intended for prospective top-level projects, and for projects that have no experience with the Apache Way. Neither of those are true for SQLLine. I would like to hear Craig’s opinion in light of the discovery that the bylaws allow the PMC to create sub-projects.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 2:02 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I would be happy to call a vote on adding SQLLine as a DB sub-project. However, it seems to me that SQLLine must first pass the hurdles of some process which verifies its community support and IP. If Craig thinks that Petri is an adequate fast-track process, then that sounds like the next step. I'm happy to serve as DB sponsor--if such a thing is relevant to Petri--provided that this doesn't entail much work.
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/1/22 1:10 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>> By the way, I know that DB is due to send a report for this month's ASF Board meeting. I think it would be appropriate to mention that SQLLine has approached the project with a view to joining as a sub-project.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2022/04/01 20:07:18 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - Carl
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>>>>>>>>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>>>>>>>>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>>>>>>>>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>>>>>>>>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>>>>>>>>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>>>>>>>>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>>>>>>>>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>>>>>>>>>> incubation.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>>>>>>>>>> the DB PMC?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>>>>>>>>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>>>>>>>>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Julian,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>>>>>>>>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>>>>>>>>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>>>>>>>>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>>>>>>>>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>>>>>>>>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>>>>>>>>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>>>>>>>>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> -Rick
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>>>>>>>>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>>>>>>>>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>>>>>>>>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>>>>>>>>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>>>>>>>>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>>>>>>>>>> releases per year.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>>>>>>>>>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
>>>>>>>>>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>>>>>>>>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>>>>>>>>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>>>>>>>>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>>>>>>>>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>>>>>>>>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>>>>>>>>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>>>>>>>>>> example).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>>>> clr@apache.org
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Craig L Russell
>> clr@apache.org
>> 
> 

Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com>]

Going through the incubator makes sense. I would probably be champion and a mentor, and given the experience of the project members, there’s not much Apache Way to be taught. We can complete the necessary admin tasks (IP check, name search, etc.) and make a release via the Incubator.

In the incubation proposal [1], DB would be the Sponsoring Entity. Per the proposal template, the DB PMC would need to vote whether to sponsor.

Julian

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/New+Podling+Proposal

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The hard part about bringing in sub-projects is what the incubator focuses on:
> importing the code base into apache repositories
> getting the proper licensing in place for the code
> making releases with attention to vetting, voting, and staging
> working as a community
> 
> If we have suitable mentors for SQLLine it should be a quick trip through the incubator. And the DB project can adopt it at graduation, assuming that we can get the required consensus among the DB PMC members. 
> 
> Best regards,
> Craig
> 
>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 4:50 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Petri seems to be intended for prospective top-level projects, and for projects that have no experience with the Apache Way. Neither of those are true for SQLLine. I would like to hear Craig’s opinion in light of the discovery that the bylaws allow the PMC to create sub-projects.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 2:02 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would be happy to call a vote on adding SQLLine as a DB sub-project. However, it seems to me that SQLLine must first pass the hurdles of some process which verifies its community support and IP. If Craig thinks that Petri is an adequate fast-track process, then that sounds like the next step. I'm happy to serve as DB sponsor--if such a thing is relevant to Petri--provided that this doesn't entail much work.
>>> 
>>> On 4/1/22 1:10 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>> By the way, I know that DB is due to send a report for this month's ASF Board meeting. I think it would be appropriate to mention that SQLLine has approached the project with a view to joining as a sub-project.
>>>> 
>>>> On 2022/04/01 20:07:18 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Julian
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
>>>>>> I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Carl
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>>>>>>>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>>>>>>>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>>>>>>>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>>>>>>>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>>>>>>>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>>>>>>>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>>>>>>>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>>>>>>>>> incubation.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>>>>>>>>> the DB PMC?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>>>>>>>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>>>>>>>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hey Julian,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>>>>>>>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>>>>>>>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>>>>>>>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>>>>>>>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>>>>>>>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>>>>>>>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>>>>>>>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>>>>>>>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> -Rick
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>>>>>>>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>>>>>>>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>>>>>>>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>>>>>>>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>>>>>>>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>>>>>>>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>>>>>>>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>>>>>>>>> releases per year.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>>>>>>>>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
>>>>>>>>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>>>>>>>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>>>>>>>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>>>>>>>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>>>>>>>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>>>>>>>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>>>>>>>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>>>>>>>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>>>>>>>>> example).
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>>> clr@apache.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Craig L Russell
> clr@apache.org
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

The hard part about bringing in sub-projects is what the incubator focuses on:
importing the code base into apache repositories
getting the proper licensing in place for the code
making releases with attention to vetting, voting, and staging
working as a community

If we have suitable mentors for SQLLine it should be a quick trip through the incubator. And the DB project can adopt it at graduation, assuming that we can get the required consensus among the DB PMC members. 

Best regards,
Craig

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 4:50 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Petri seems to be intended for prospective top-level projects, and for projects that have no experience with the Apache Way. Neither of those are true for SQLLine. I would like to hear Craig’s opinion in light of the discovery that the bylaws allow the PMC to create sub-projects.
> 
> 
>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 2:02 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I would be happy to call a vote on adding SQLLine as a DB sub-project. However, it seems to me that SQLLine must first pass the hurdles of some process which verifies its community support and IP. If Craig thinks that Petri is an adequate fast-track process, then that sounds like the next step. I'm happy to serve as DB sponsor--if such a thing is relevant to Petri--provided that this doesn't entail much work.
>> 
>> On 4/1/22 1:10 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>> By the way, I know that DB is due to send a report for this month's ASF Board meeting. I think it would be appropriate to mention that SQLLine has approached the project with a view to joining as a sub-project.
>>> 
>>> On 2022/04/01 20:07:18 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>> Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.
>>>> 
>>>> Julian
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
>>>>> I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Carl
>>>>> 
>>>>> [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>>>>>>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>>>>>>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>>>>>>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>>>>>>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>>>>>>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>>>>>>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>>>>>>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>>>>>>>> incubation.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>>>>>>>> the DB PMC?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>>>>>>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>>>>>>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hey Julian,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>>>>>>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>>>>>>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>>>>>>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>>>>>>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>>>>>>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>>>>>>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>>>>>>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>>>>>>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> -Rick
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>>>>>>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>>>>>>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>>>>>>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>>>>>>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>>>>>>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>>>>>>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>>>>>>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>>>>>>>> releases per year.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>>>>>>>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
>>>>>>>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>>>>>>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>>>>>>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>>>>>>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>>>>>>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>>>>>>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>>>>>>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>>>>>>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>>>>>>>> example).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> clr@apache.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
> 

Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com>]

Petri seems to be intended for prospective top-level projects, and for projects that have no experience with the Apache Way. Neither of those are true for SQLLine. I would like to hear Craig’s opinion in light of the discovery that the bylaws allow the PMC to create sub-projects.


> On Apr 1, 2022, at 2:02 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I would be happy to call a vote on adding SQLLine as a DB sub-project. However, it seems to me that SQLLine must first pass the hurdles of some process which verifies its community support and IP. If Craig thinks that Petri is an adequate fast-track process, then that sounds like the next step. I'm happy to serve as DB sponsor--if such a thing is relevant to Petri--provided that this doesn't entail much work.
> 
> On 4/1/22 1:10 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>> By the way, I know that DB is due to send a report for this month's ASF Board meeting. I think it would be appropriate to mention that SQLLine has approached the project with a view to joining as a sub-project.
>> 
>> On 2022/04/01 20:07:18 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>> Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
>>>> I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
>>>> 
>>>> I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
>>>> 
>>>> "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
>>>> 
>>>> Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> - Carl
>>>> 
>>>> [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
>>>> 
>>>> On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Julian
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>>>>>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>>>>>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>>>>>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>>>>>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>>>>>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>>>>>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>>>>>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>>>>>>> incubation.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>>>>>>> the DB PMC?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>>>>>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>>>>>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hey Julian,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>>>>>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>>>>>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>>>>>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>>>>>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>>>>>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>>>>>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>>>>>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>>>>>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Rick
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>>>>>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>>>>>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>>>>>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>>>>>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>>>>>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>>>>>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>>>>>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>>>>>>> releases per year.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>>>>>>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
>>>>>>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>>>>>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>>>>>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>>>>>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>>>>>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>>>>>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>>>>>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>>>>>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>>>>>>> example).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>> clr@apache.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com>]

I would be happy to call a vote on adding SQLLine as a DB sub-project. 
However, it seems to me that SQLLine must first pass the hurdles of some 
process which verifies its community support and IP. If Craig thinks 
that Petri is an adequate fast-track process, then that sounds like the 
next step. I'm happy to serve as DB sponsor--if such a thing is relevant 
to Petri--provided that this doesn't entail much work.

On 4/1/22 1:10 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> By the way, I know that DB is due to send a report for this month's ASF Board meeting. I think it would be appropriate to mention that SQLLine has approached the project with a view to joining as a sub-project.
>
> On 2022/04/01 20:07:18 Julian Hyde wrote:
>> Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>>
>> On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
>>> I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
>>>
>>> I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
>>>
>>> "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
>>>
>>> Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> - Carl
>>>
>>> [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
>>>
>>> On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
>>>>
>>>> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
>>>>
>>>> Julian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warm regards,
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>>>>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>>>>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>>>>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>>>>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>>>>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>>>>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>>>>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>>>>>> incubation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>>>>>> the DB PMC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>>>>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>>>>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Julian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>>>>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>>>>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>>>>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>>>>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>>>>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>>>>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>>>>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>>>>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> -Rick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>>>>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>>>>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>>>>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>>>>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>>>>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>>>>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>>>>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>>>>>> releases per year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>>>>>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
>>>>>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>>>>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>>>>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>>>>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>>>>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>>>>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>>>>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>>>>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>>>>>> example).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>> clr@apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

By the way, I know that DB is due to send a report for this month's ASF Board meeting. I think it would be appropriate to mention that SQLLine has approached the project with a view to joining as a sub-project.

On 2022/04/01 20:07:18 Julian Hyde wrote:
> Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
> > I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
> > 
> > I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
> > 
> > "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
> > 
> > Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > - Carl
> > 
> > [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
> > 
> > On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
> > > Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion. 
> > > 
> > > However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
> > > 
> > > I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
> > > 
> > > Julian
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 
> > > > 
> > > > But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
> > > > 
> > > > You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
> > > > 
> > > > Warm regards,
> > > > Craig
> > > > 
> > > >> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> 
> > > >> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
> > > >> 
> > > >> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> > > >>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
> > > >>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
> > > >>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
> > > >>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
> > > >>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
> > > >>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
> > > >>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
> > > >>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
> > > >>> incubation.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
> > > >>> the DB PMC?
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
> > > >>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
> > > >>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Julian
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Hey Julian,
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
> > > >>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
> > > >>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
> > > >>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
> > > >>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
> > > >>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
> > > >>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
> > > >>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
> > > >>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Cheers,
> > > >>> -Rick
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
> > > >>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
> > > >>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
> > > >>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
> > > >>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
> > > >>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
> > > >>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
> > > >>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
> > > >>> releases per year.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
> > > >>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
> > > >>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
> > > >>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
> > > >>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
> > > >>> but we are just short of critical mass.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
> > > >>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
> > > >>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
> > > >>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
> > > >>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
> > > >>> example).
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
> > > >>> projects.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Julian
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
> > > >>> 
> > > >> 
> > > > 
> > > > Craig L Russell
> > > > clr@apache.org
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

Thanks for raising this, Carl. I think the SQLLine project members would be interested in joining the DB project by this means. Given the members' experience with Apache this low-friction approach makes sense.

Julian


On 2022/03/30 19:25:11 Carl Steinbach wrote:
> I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.
> 
> I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:
> 
> "PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."
> 
> Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - Carl
> 
> [1] https://db.apache.org/management.html
> 
> On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
> > Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion. 
> > 
> > However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
> > 
> > I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
> > 
> > Julian
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 
> > > 
> > > But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
> > > 
> > > You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
> > > 
> > > Warm regards,
> > > Craig
> > > 
> > >> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
> > >> 
> > >> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> > >>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
> > >>> 
> > >>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
> > >>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
> > >>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
> > >>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
> > >>> 
> > >>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
> > >>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
> > >>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
> > >>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
> > >>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
> > >>> incubation.
> > >>> 
> > >>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
> > >>> the DB PMC?
> > >>> 
> > >>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
> > >>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
> > >>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Julian
> > >>> 
> > >>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> Hey Julian,
> > >>> 
> > >>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
> > >>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
> > >>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
> > >>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
> > >>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
> > >>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
> > >>> 
> > >>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
> > >>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
> > >>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
> > >>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
> > >>> 
> > >>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> -Rick
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
> > >>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
> > >>> 
> > >>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
> > >>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
> > >>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
> > >>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
> > >>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
> > >>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
> > >>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
> > >>> releases per year.
> > >>> 
> > >>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
> > >>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
> > >>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
> > >>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
> > >>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
> > >>> but we are just short of critical mass.
> > >>> 
> > >>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
> > >>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
> > >>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
> > >>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
> > >>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
> > >>> example).
> > >>> 
> > >>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
> > >>> projects.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Julian
> > >>> 
> > >>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
> > >>> 
> > >>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
> > >>> 
> > >>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
> > >>> 
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > Craig L Russell
> > > clr@apache.org
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Carl Steinbach <cw...@apache.org>]

I'm a longtime user of both Sqlline and Apache DB, and think the former is a natural fit for the latter. I am also an Apache and IPMC member, and am eager to help in any way to get this process moving.

I also wanted to note that the Apache DB Project Bylaws [1] specify the following process for adding new subprojects:

"PMC members may propose the creation of new subprojects. Creation of a new subproject requires approval by 3/4 positve vote with a minimum of 3 positive votes of the PMC. Abstaining PMC voters do not affect the result. New code enters the DB project in accordance with ASF policy."

Rick, is there any chance that you would be willing to propose the creation of the Sqlline subproject? If so, I'm happy to write up the proposal.

Thanks.

- Carl

[1] https://db.apache.org/management.html

On 2021/11/01 19:30:11 Julian Hyde wrote:
> Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion. 
> 
> However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?
> 
> I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> 
> > On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 
> > 
> > But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
> > 
> > You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
> > 
> > Warm regards,
> > Craig
> > 
> >> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
> >> 
> >> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> >>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
> >>> 
> >>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
> >>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
> >>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
> >>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
> >>> 
> >>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
> >>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
> >>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
> >>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
> >>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
> >>> incubation.
> >>> 
> >>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
> >>> the DB PMC?
> >>> 
> >>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
> >>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
> >>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
> >>> 
> >>> Julian
> >>> 
> >>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Hey Julian,
> >>> 
> >>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
> >>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
> >>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
> >>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
> >>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
> >>> 
> >>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
> >>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
> >>> 
> >>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
> >>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
> >>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
> >>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
> >>> 
> >>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
> >>> 
> >>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
> >>> 
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> -Rick
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
> >>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
> >>> 
> >>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
> >>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
> >>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
> >>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
> >>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
> >>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
> >>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
> >>> releases per year.
> >>> 
> >>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
> >>> governance, branding and IP ownership. Based on its GitHub URL,
> >>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
> >>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
> >>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
> >>> but we are just short of critical mass.
> >>> 
> >>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
> >>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
> >>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
> >>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
> >>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
> >>> example).
> >>> 
> >>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
> >>> projects.
> >>> 
> >>> Julian
> >>> 
> >>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
> >>> 
> >>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
> >>> 
> >>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
> >>> 
> >> 
> > 
> > Craig L Russell
> > clr@apache.org
> > 
> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com>]

Thanks, Craig. It seems that Petri would be a reasonable route for a mature project to become an Apache TLP. As would Incubator, in my opinion. 

However, my main questions concern DB. Is DB interested in sub-projects? If so, how would one enter DB?

I think that SQLLine would be a good fit in DB, but other than Rick’s remarks, I’m not sensing much enthusiasm.

Julian



> On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 
> 
> But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.
> 
> You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.
> 
> Warm regards,
> Craig
> 
>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
>> 
>> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>>> 
>>>> From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>>> 
>>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>>> incubation.
>>> 
>>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>>> the DB PMC?
>>> 
>>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> 
>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey Julian,
>>> 
>>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>>> 
>>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>>> 
>>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>>> 
>>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>>> 
>>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Rick
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>>> 
>>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>>> releases per year.
>>> 
>>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>>> governance, branding and IP ownership.  Based on its GitHub URL,
>>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>>> 
>>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>>> example).
>>> 
>>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>>> projects.
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> 
>>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>>> 
>>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>>> 
>>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Craig L Russell
> clr@apache.org
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>]

The incubator is indeed how most projects come to Apache. 

But Petri is a group that is specifically designed to fast-track projects that already know how communities work and are interested in bringing their project to Apache.

You can start by looking at the project web site https://petri.apache.org and asking questions on the discuss@ mail list.

Warm regards,
Craig

> On Nov 1, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for guidance.
> 
> On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>> 
>> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>> 
>> >From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
>> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
>> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
>> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>> 
>> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
>> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
>> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
>> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
>> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
>> incubation.
>> 
>> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
>> the DB PMC?
>> 
>> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
>> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
>> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>> 
>> Julian
>> 
>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Julian,
>> 
>> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
>> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
>> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
>> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
>> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>> 
>> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
>> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>> 
>> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
>> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
>> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
>> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>> 
>> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>> 
>> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -Rick
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>> 
>> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
>> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>> 
>> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
>> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
>> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
>> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
>> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
>> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
>> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
>> releases per year.
>> 
>> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
>> governance, branding and IP ownership.  Based on its GitHub URL,
>> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
>> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
>> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
>> but we are just short of critical mass.
>> 
>> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
>> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
>> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
>> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
>> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
>> example).
>> 
>> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
>> projects.
>> 
>> Julian
>> 
>> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>> 
>> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>> 
>> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>> 
> 

Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org

Re: [DISCUSS] SQLLine as a sub-project of DB

[Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com>]

I don't know of any fast-track process for circumventing the incubator. 
I have never incubated a project myself, so I would defer to Craig for 
guidance.

On 11/1/21 12:13 AM, Julian Hyde wrote:
> (Moving sqlline-dev to bcc.)
>
> Thanks for the reply, and the warm welcome, Rick.
>
> >From what I can tell (if Derby, JDO, Cayenne are to be regarded as
> typical), sub-projects enter the DB project via the Incubator, sponsored by
> DB, and after completing incubation graduate into DB. And then the
> committers of the incubating sub-project become PMC members of DB.
>
> The Incubation process seems viable for us. I'm sure we can attract a few
> more regular contributors during incubation. The ‘teaching people the
> Apache Way’ aspect of the Incubator seems unnecessary, given that
> contributors to SQLLine have plenty of Apache experience; I took Calcite
> through incubation, and have mentored a half dozen projects through
> incubation.
>
> By the way, does that process require a Board vote? Or is it just a vote by
> the DB PMC?
>
> Would IP clearance be an alternative way to enter? I guess if we went that
> route, we would still have to earn our commit bits & PMC membership after
> entering DB, and in the interim, that would make releases a bit difficult.
>
> Julian
>
> On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Rick Hillegas <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Julian,
>
> I think that the DB project would be a good home for SQLLine. DB already
> has a SQL REPL tool called ij, which can be deployed against any JDBC
> database. The ij REPL tool is part of the Derby toolset:
> https://db.apache.org/derby/docs/10.15/tools/ctoolsij34525.html There could
> be some interesting cross-pollination between SQLLine and ij.
>
> Craig Russell hangs out at the DB project. He has a wealth of experience
> incubating projects and can probably help guide you through the process.
>
> You probably already know much more about the Apache incubator than I do,
> given your stewardship of Calcite. At first blush, it sounds as though you
> need to sort out some IP issues and attract a couple more active
> contributors in order to pass the incubator hurdles.
>
> I don't know what you need from DB at this point. Maybe Craig can weigh in.
>
> Welcome and a big +1 to folding SQLLine into Apache DB.
>
> Cheers,
> -Rick
>
>
> On 10/28/21 8:49 PM, Julian Hyde wrote:
>
> Is the DB project interested in adding sub-projects? And if so, what
> are the criteria for acceptance, and what is the process?
>
> SQLLine [1] is an open-source project that provides a command-line
> shell for any JDBC data source. It is widely used, including in Apache
> projects such as Drill and Calcite, and even more widely forked (e.g.
> Hive’s Beeline). The project was founded in around 2002 [2] and around
> 2012 I adopted it, moved it to GitHub, and started making releases
> again [3]. We have two regular contributors (myself and Sergey
> Nuyanzin) and several occasional contributors, and make one or two
> releases per year.
>
> In the SQLLine project, we have recently started a conversation about
> governance, branding and IP ownership.  Based on its GitHub URL,
> people tend to assume that it is a single-developer project, and that
> perception may hurt adoption and participation. We have been moving
> towards an ASF-style governance model based on a PMC and committers,
> but we are just short of critical mass.
>
> We think that SQLLine might be a good fit for the DB project. As a
> Java-based tool for interacting with databases it fits the mission
> perfectly; several of us are active in ASF projects and therefore know
> how things work in Apache. If accepted, we could contribute to the
> running of the DB project (voting on other sub-projects’ releases, for
> example).
>
> Please let us know whether you think it would be a good fit for our
> projects.
>
> Julian
>
> [1] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline
>
> [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlline/files/sqlline/
>
> [3] https://github.com/julianhyde/sqlline/blob/master/HISTORY.md
>