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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com> on 2010/11/19 17:19:22 UTC
For the one at the Devoxx
Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
Cheers
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
<ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not justified,
> he told to the audience that he will update it !
Done.
He likes compare frameworks and build matrix but the strange thing is
that they're based on something subjective and counting buzz words and
the noise they do nothing technical.
One positive thing (maybe the most important) is that he tell people
to try frameworks...
Cheers
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
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RE: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Newham, Cameron" <ca...@bl.uk>.
I plead guilty. I got the images but never find the time to post them.
I'll do it later.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
;-)
________________________________
From: Igor Drobiazko [mailto:igor.drobiazko@gmail.com]
Sent: 30 November 2010 13:56
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: For the one at the Devoxx
I plead guilty. I got the images but never find the time to post them.
I'll do it later.
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
wrote:
2010/11/30 Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
Hey - all you Tapestry guys/gals that met in Devoxx... I didn't
see any blog entry
i'm a gal ? :D
(with photos) about your meeting.. is there any in the works?
I took some photos and I send them to the tespestry bloggers here. My
blog is in french - and some part in spanish too - . I'm going to
publish something related to Devoxx soon, but something more general. My
blog is a community blog. People don't care about what happy I was
meeting Christophe and Igor at Devoxx :) Even if for me this was one of
the very very very bests (BESTS!!!!!) events of this conference !!!!
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 15:07, Katia Aresti
<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
Matt Raible has republished his comparatif
:)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhG
eGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
2010/11/24 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
Oops, did his talk or the controversial discussion
following it cause his own (Java EE powered, at least he eats his own
dogfood ) servers to crash with not enough memory ?!
That would be a poor signal, especially to "Real world"
customers, but he's not alone in this.
Another "star" among DevoXX presenters, this year he had
a scheduling conflict has turned out to fail a similar "reality test", a
very smart team mate at my old mobile project last year presented him.
It happens to the best of us and maybe the DevOps guys
some of them also at the same event could help him to prevent this in
future...?
Werner
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Massimo Lusetti
<ml...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
<ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Actually, you can send him en email if you think
values are not justified,
> he told to the audience that he will update it !
Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism
<e.g> (no rage just fun:)
http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
Unexpected Exception
Status Code 500
Message javax.servlet.ServletException:
java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
unable to create new native thread
Type
Exception Roller has encountered and logged an
unexpected exception.
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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--
Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
Open Source / JEE Consulting
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
I plead guilty. I got the images but never find the time to post them. I'll
do it later.
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2010/11/30 Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
>
> Hey - all you Tapestry guys/gals that met in Devoxx... I didn't see any
>> blog entry
>
>
> i'm a gal ? :D
>
>
>> (with photos) about your meeting.. is there any in the works?
>>
>
> I took some photos and I send them to the tespestry bloggers here. My blog
> is in french - and some part in spanish too - . I'm going to publish
> something related to Devoxx soon, but something more general. My blog is a
> community blog. People don't care about what happy I was meeting Christophe
> and Igor at Devoxx :) Even if for me this was one of the very very very
> bests (BESTS!!!!!) events of this conference !!!!
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 15:07, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Raible has republished his comparatif
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/11/24 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Oops, did his talk or the controversial discussion following it cause his
>>>> own (Java EE powered, at least he eats his own dogfood [?]) servers to
>>>> crash with not enough memory ?! [?]
>>>>
>>>> That would be a poor signal, especially to "Real world" customers, but
>>>> he's not alone in this.
>>>>
>>>> Another "star" among DevoXX presenters, this year he had a scheduling
>>>> conflict has turned out to fail a similar "reality test", a very smart team
>>>> mate at my old mobile project last year presented him.
>>>>
>>>> It happens to the best of us and maybe the DevOps guys some of them also
>>>> at the same event could help him to prevent this in future...?
>>>>
>>>> Werner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
>>>>> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
>>>>> justified,
>>>>> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism <e.g> (no rage just
>>>>> fun:)
>>>>>
>>>>> http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
>>>>>
>>>>> Unexpected Exception
>>>>>
>>>>> Status Code 500
>>>>> Message javax.servlet.ServletException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
>>>>> unable to create new native thread
>>>>> Type
>>>>> Exception Roller has encountered and logged an unexpected
>>>>> exception.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Massimo
>>>>> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
>> Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
>> Open Source / JEE Consulting
>>
>
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
2010/11/30 Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> Hey - all you Tapestry guys/gals that met in Devoxx... I didn't see any
> blog entry
i'm a gal ? :D
> (with photos) about your meeting.. is there any in the works?
>
I took some photos and I send them to the tespestry bloggers here. My blog
is in french - and some part in spanish too - . I'm going to publish
something related to Devoxx soon, but something more general. My blog is a
community blog. People don't care about what happy I was meeting Christophe
and Igor at Devoxx :) Even if for me this was one of the very very very
bests (BESTS!!!!!) events of this conference !!!!
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 15:07, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Matt Raible has republished his comparatif
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>>
>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2010/11/24 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
>>
>> Oops, did his talk or the controversial discussion following it cause his
>>> own (Java EE powered, at least he eats his own dogfood [?]) servers to
>>> crash with not enough memory ?! [?]
>>>
>>> That would be a poor signal, especially to "Real world" customers, but
>>> he's not alone in this.
>>>
>>> Another "star" among DevoXX presenters, this year he had a scheduling
>>> conflict has turned out to fail a similar "reality test", a very smart team
>>> mate at my old mobile project last year presented him.
>>>
>>> It happens to the best of us and maybe the DevOps guys some of them also
>>> at the same event could help him to prevent this in future...?
>>>
>>> Werner
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
>>>> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hi
>>>> >
>>>> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
>>>> justified,
>>>> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
>>>>
>>>> Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism <e.g> (no rage just
>>>> fun:)
>>>>
>>>> http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
>>>>
>>>> Unexpected Exception
>>>>
>>>> Status Code 500
>>>> Message javax.servlet.ServletException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
>>>> unable to create new native thread
>>>> Type
>>>> Exception Roller has encountered and logged an unexpected
>>>> exception.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Massimo
>>>> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> Open Source / JEE Consulting
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>.
Hey - all you Tapestry guys/gals that met in Devoxx... I didn't see any blog
entry
(with photos) about your meeting.. is there any in the works?
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 15:07, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matt Raible has republished his comparatif
>
> :)
>
>
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
>
>
>
>
> 2010/11/24 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
>
> Oops, did his talk or the controversial discussion following it cause his
>> own (Java EE powered, at least he eats his own dogfood [?]) servers to
>> crash with not enough memory ?! [?]
>>
>> That would be a poor signal, especially to "Real world" customers, but
>> he's not alone in this.
>>
>> Another "star" among DevoXX presenters, this year he had a scheduling
>> conflict has turned out to fail a similar "reality test", a very smart team
>> mate at my old mobile project last year presented him.
>>
>> It happens to the best of us and maybe the DevOps guys some of them also
>> at the same event could help him to prevent this in future...?
>>
>> Werner
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
>>> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi
>>> >
>>> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
>>> justified,
>>> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
>>>
>>> Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism <e.g> (no rage just
>>> fun:)
>>>
>>> http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
>>>
>>> Unexpected Exception
>>>
>>> Status Code 500
>>> Message javax.servlet.ServletException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
>>> unable to create new native thread
>>> Type
>>> Exception Roller has encountered and logged an unexpected
>>> exception.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Massimo
>>> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
--
Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
Open Source / JEE Consulting
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
Matt Raible has republished his comparatif
:)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
2010/11/24 Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> Oops, did his talk or the controversial discussion following it cause his
> own (Java EE powered, at least he eats his own dogfood [?]) servers to
> crash with not enough memory ?! [?]
>
> That would be a poor signal, especially to "Real world" customers, but he's
> not alone in this.
>
> Another "star" among DevoXX presenters, this year he had a scheduling
> conflict has turned out to fail a similar "reality test", a very smart team
> mate at my old mobile project last year presented him.
>
> It happens to the best of us and maybe the DevOps guys some of them also at
> the same event could help him to prevent this in future...?
>
> Werner
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
>> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
>> justified,
>> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
>>
>> Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism <e.g> (no rage just
>> fun:)
>>
>> http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
>>
>> Unexpected Exception
>>
>> Status Code 500
>> Message javax.servlet.ServletException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
>> unable to create new native thread
>> Type
>> Exception Roller has encountered and logged an unexpected exception.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Massimo
>> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Oops, did his talk or the controversial discussion following it cause his
own (Java EE powered, at least he eats his own dogfood [?]) servers to crash
with not enough memory ?! [?]
That would be a poor signal, especially to "Real world" customers, but he's
not alone in this.
Another "star" among DevoXX presenters, this year he had a scheduling
conflict has turned out to fail a similar "reality test", a very smart team
mate at my old mobile project last year presented him.
It happens to the best of us and maybe the DevOps guys some of them also at
the same event could help him to prevent this in future...?
Werner
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> justified,
> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
>
> Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism <e.g> (no rage just
> fun:)
>
> http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
>
> Unexpected Exception
>
> Status Code 500
> Message javax.servlet.ServletException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
> unable to create new native thread
> Type
> Exception Roller has encountered and logged an unexpected exception.
>
>
>
> --
> Massimo
> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Christophe Cordenier
<ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not justified,
> he told to the audience that he will update it !
Oh... maybe they're still using a pooling mechanism <e.g> (no rage just fun:)
http://raibledesigns.com/contact.jsp
Unexpected Exception
Status Code 500
Message javax.servlet.ServletException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError:
unable to create new native thread
Type
Exception Roller has encountered and logged an unexpected exception.
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de> wrote:
> Yeah - you could do this, but a lot of problems will arise. You don't
> want to do this, I've tried it.
> In the end you give up the advantages of components and gain nothing.
> And its still more complex to use than in an action based framework,
> especially if it comes to AJAX.
I would really like to have a more direct experience but what can I
say is that when you mix and match javascript with html code all
become pain... As I can see from the screencast in the play framework
... that not seem a clean way.
> Oh.. of course. Tapestry is a dream of productivity compared to JSF.
> But we are talking about action based approaches here, more concrete
> about Play!
> And sure I have to worry about life cycles.. I had to in every single
> tapestry app I've built. You need to worry about component IDs, about
> life cycles and how your data flows through them. It's all coming
> together in an elegant way - but you need to worry a lot more within
> the "component" world.
I really don't see this... maybe the binding mechanism is what confuse
some but that's not so hard to come around...
> Agreed - but sometimes you need to prototype quickly. I prefer to be
> able to "upgrade" the prototype to the final app, without completely
> rewriting it. I found it difficult to deliver quick changing
> prototypes in tapestry. Customizing the UI costs too much time,
> especially if your available web developers dont have a clue about
> tapestry. And most of them dont ;)
I think I should try play if it let you prototype quicker then T5 but
from what I can see from the screencast (again) that seems not the
case...
> Agreed. On the other hand experience has shown that its not worth to
> think about all possibilities the future may bring. Solve the problem,
> solve it fast.
> If the application needs to get more complex in 2 years, think about
> how to solve this complexity then. Else you are in danger to
> over-architect your application from the beginning. The result is much
> more work than needed.
That's right. Indeed. But has nothing to do with Tapestry nor play not
the_new_framework_around
> Just to say it again.. I love tapestry. I like the clean code and the
> endless possibilities. But _my_ reality right now is that it is not
> the best choice for some of _my_ projects. Thats sad, but I am not too
> religious about the tools I use.
Wise... :)
Cheers
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>.
I would argue that component event requests is where Tapestry
meets action-based frameworks.
If we forget that fact that those event urls expose a bit of the internal
structure of the application and over time may change, then you really
get to an action-based workflow.
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 20:25, Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net> wrote:
> I recently integrated the JQuery-based DataTables[1] library into one
> of my Tapestry applications. I had previously used the HTML approach
> (rendering all of the HTML for the table via the TML and then let the
> DataTable augment the HTML table), but went with the AJAX option to
> handle large result sets. I was unsure how to handle the AJAX calls
> with Tapestry, but after a little digging I figured it out and it was
> much simpler than I feared. I created an event/handler in my
> component that processed the AJAX request and returned JSON to the
> DataTable. It ended up being a component with ~100 lines of code. I
> was pretty happy with the flexibility of both Tapestry and the
> DataTable. I'm not convinced an action-based framework is any easier.
>
> mrg
>
> [1] http://www.datatables.net/
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de> wrote:
>> Yeah - you could do this, but a lot of problems will arise. You don't
>> want to do this, I've tried it.
>> In the end you give up the advantages of components and gain nothing.
>> And its still more complex to use than in an action based framework,
>> especially if it comes to AJAX.
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
Open Source / JEE Consulting
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net> wrote:
> I recently integrated the JQuery-based DataTables[1] library into one
> of my Tapestry applications. I had previously used the HTML approach
> (rendering all of the HTML for the table via the TML and then let the
> DataTable augment the HTML table), but went with the AJAX option to
> handle large result sets. I was unsure how to handle the AJAX calls
> with Tapestry, but after a little digging I figured it out and it was
> much simpler than I feared. I created an event/handler in my
> component that processed the AJAX request and returned JSON to the
> DataTable. It ended up being a component with ~100 lines of code. I
> was pretty happy with the flexibility of both Tapestry and the
> DataTable. I'm not convinced an action-based framework is any easier.
>
> mrg
>
> [1] http://www.datatables.net/
Wasn't aware of that ... component! ... Nice! :)
Cheers
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>.
I recently integrated the JQuery-based DataTables[1] library into one
of my Tapestry applications. I had previously used the HTML approach
(rendering all of the HTML for the table via the TML and then let the
DataTable augment the HTML table), but went with the AJAX option to
handle large result sets. I was unsure how to handle the AJAX calls
with Tapestry, but after a little digging I figured it out and it was
much simpler than I feared. I created an event/handler in my
component that processed the AJAX request and returned JSON to the
DataTable. It ended up being a component with ~100 lines of code. I
was pretty happy with the flexibility of both Tapestry and the
DataTable. I'm not convinced an action-based framework is any easier.
mrg
[1] http://www.datatables.net/
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de> wrote:
> Yeah - you could do this, but a lot of problems will arise. You don't
> want to do this, I've tried it.
> In the end you give up the advantages of components and gain nothing.
> And its still more complex to use than in an action based framework,
> especially if it comes to AJAX.
>
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Vangel V. Ajanovski" <aj...@ii.edu.mk>.
On 23.11.2010 18:06, Piero Sartini wrote:
> If the application needs to get more complex in 2 years, think about
> how to solve this complexity then. Else you are in danger to
> over-architect your application from the beginning. The result is much
> more work than needed.
A real software engineer should be in control of the development
process, not vice versa.
I think that what you are talking about has nothing to do with Tapestry
or any other framework, or any other tool, but it is about the software
development methodologies and the software development processes.
In some methodologies you have the rule - do what you can now and give
the client results sooner, deal with the risk later; in other
methodologies you have the maxima - plan everything in front, code at
the end; in other methodologies the maxima - solve the most complex
use-case first, leave the easy things last.
There is no general case which methodology is the best, which process is
the most productive.
Each methodology is backed up by some philosophical view on the world,
on the problems, on the risks.... and some are out of place, out of
context for some problems and some situations.
For example the philosophy of Keops (Khufu) when building his pyramid
had success partially because he had virtually unlimited manpower and
virtually unlimited resources, he was God himself and everything living
was a slave a subject to him. Try and implement his methodology and
philosophy in your software projects ;)
And finally development of a software application is no different than
building a building. :)
Different buildings - different methodologies (contrast Burj Al Arab
versus My timber cabin)
You should not generalize, but choose carefully your methodology and
process for each project.
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
> Of course, we always are more productive with the tools we already are used
> to them. But this doesn't mean you couldn't be more productive if you learn
> a better tool.
Oh - its not that I did not learn Tapestry ;-)
> You don't need to create components to use JavaScript at all. If you don't
> think you need to write components, don't write them. Just use jQuery UI or
> any other JavaScript package directly in your pages.
Yeah - you could do this, but a lot of problems will arise. You don't
want to do this, I've tried it.
In the end you give up the advantages of components and gain nothing.
And its still more complex to use than in an action based framework,
especially if it comes to AJAX.
> Anyway, you don't need to worry about lifecycles in Tapestry unless you're
> writing something more complex, and that doesn't happen everyday, and
> lifecycles in Tapestry (page and components) are not complex, specially when
> compared to JSF, for example.
Oh.. of course. Tapestry is a dream of productivity compared to JSF.
But we are talking about action based approaches here, more concrete
about Play!
And sure I have to worry about life cycles.. I had to in every single
tapestry app I've built. You need to worry about component IDs, about
life cycles and how your data flows through them. It's all coming
together in an elegant way - but you need to worry a lot more within
the "component" world.
>> To build a tapestry project you need more work/thinking in the
>> beginning,
>
> This is a very good thing! :)
Agreed - but sometimes you need to prototype quickly. I prefer to be
able to "upgrade" the prototype to the final app, without completely
rewriting it. I found it difficult to deliver quick changing
prototypes in tapestry. Customizing the UI costs too much time,
especially if your available web developers dont have a clue about
tapestry. And most of them dont ;)
> All projects eventually get bigger and more complex as time passes.
> I respect your reasons, but I disagree with them.
Agreed. On the other hand experience has shown that its not worth to
think about all possibilities the future may bring. Solve the problem,
solve it fast.
If the application needs to get more complex in 2 years, think about
how to solve this complexity then. Else you are in danger to
over-architect your application from the beginning. The result is much
more work than needed.
Just to say it again.. I love tapestry. I like the clean code and the
endless possibilities. But _my_ reality right now is that it is not
the best choice for some of _my_ projects. Thats sad, but I am not too
religious about the tools I use.
Piero
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:09:11 -0200, Piero Sartini <ps...@sartini-its.com>
wrote:
>>> It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
>> For example ?
>
> Projects where the component model does not pay off the increased
> complexity.
What complexity? Creating one class per page?
> Maybe its just because I am doing webapps for so long that action
> based is more natural to me..
Of course, we always are more productive with the tools we already are
used to them. But this doesn't mean you couldn't be more productive if you
learn a better tool.
> but my feeling is that its much easier
> to utilize third party products like jQuery UI and others if you do
> not need to care about components and life cycles.
> starting with wrapping javascript widgets inside your
> components.
You don't need to create components to use JavaScript at all. If you don't
think you need to write components, don't write them. Just use jQuery UI
or any other JavaScript package directly in your pages.
Anyway, you don't need to worry about lifecycles in Tapestry unless you're
writing something more complex, and that doesn't happen everyday, and
lifecycles in Tapestry (page and components) are not complex, specially
when compared to JSF, for example.
> To build a tapestry project you need more work/thinking in the
> beginning,
This is a very good thing! :)
> IMHO this pays off if your project is getting very complex
> and you can heavily re-use your components. Or on the other side for
> very small projects, where you don't need to tweak the UI and can rely
> on the standard components provided.
All projects eventually get bigger and more complex as time passes.
I respect your reasons, but I disagree with them.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:09:11 -0200, Piero Sartini <ps...@sartini-its.com>
wrote:
> Projects where the component model does not pay off the increased
> complexity.
What increased complexity?
> Maybe its just because I am doing webapps for so long that action
> based is more natural to me.. but my feeling is that its much easier
> to utilize third party products like jQuery UI and others if you do
> not need to care about components and life cycles.
>
> To build a tapestry project you need more work/thinking in the
> beginning, starting with wrapping javascript widgets inside your
> components. IMHO this pays off if your project is getting very complex
> and you can heavily re-use your components. Or on the other side for
> very small projects, where you don't need to tweak the UI and can rely
> on the standard components provided.
>
> Piero
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
Consultor, desenvolvedor e instrutor em Java, Tapestry e Hibernate
Coordenador e professor da Especialização em Engenharia de Software com
Ênfase em Java da Faculdade Pitágoras
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Piero Sartini <ps...@sartini-its.com>.
>> It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
> For example ?
Projects where the component model does not pay off the increased complexity.
Maybe its just because I am doing webapps for so long that action
based is more natural to me.. but my feeling is that its much easier
to utilize third party products like jQuery UI and others if you do
not need to care about components and life cycles.
To build a tapestry project you need more work/thinking in the
beginning, starting with wrapping javascript widgets inside your
components. IMHO this pays off if your project is getting very complex
and you can heavily re-use your components. Or on the other side for
very small projects, where you don't need to tweak the UI and can rely
on the standard components provided.
Piero
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
>
> For example ?
I too am curious about that sentence...
Cheers
--
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
2010/11/23 Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>
> > Play! team - and people around who believe on the project - are very good
> on
> > marketing and buzz.
>
> I've tried it before and beside being good in marketing and buzz,
> they created an excellent action based web framework.
>
I meant to say good on marketing despite of the frameworks qualities.
>
> It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
>
For example ?
>
> Piero
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:46:40 -0200, Igor Drobiazko
<ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Piero Sartini
> <li...@pierosartini.de>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
>>
>>
> Watch out! Very dangerous statement in a Tapestry mailing list! :) :)
Yes! It can generate some discussions that can lead to improvements in
Tapestry and then make the other frameworks look bad. :D
Given a choice between Java web frameworks, I would think which projects
*not using* Tapestry would be overkill. Talking in general terms, GWT and
Echo (both 2 and 3) would be better suited than Tapestry for single-page
applications which mimic desktop applications. Even in this scenario
building the app in Tapestry wouldn't be overkill.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>wrote:
>
>
> It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
>
>
Watch out! Very dangerous statement in a Tapestry mailing list! :) :)
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
> Play! team - and people around who believe on the project - are very good on
> marketing and buzz.
I've tried it before and beside being good in marketing and buzz,
they created an excellent action based web framework.
It's my choice in projects where tapestry would be overkill.
Piero
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
2010/11/23 Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>
> 2010/11/19 Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>:
> > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > average developer?
>
> For the average developer it helps a lot if he knows that there are
> solid integrations with his favorite technologies/frameworks.
>
> Some examples:
> - JPA / JDO / Amazon S3 / HBase / MongoDB / whatever
> - Spring / CDI / EJB3 / other DI containers
> - GWT / jQuery / Prototype / ExtJS / etc
>
> Some of these integrations are already available in the tapestry
> world.. but they are not visible to the average developer who gives
> tapestry a try. I really love how the third party modules of the Play!
> Framework are visible on the main page.
>
Play! team - and people around who believe on the project - are very good on
marketing and buzz.
After several twits and retwits, they just arrived to make Matt Raible speak
about Play! at Devoxx 2010, he changed his table, his slides and said
"Play!" several times. So, people hear : "play!play!play!" and just works
... :) People go and test Play!.
Katia
>
> Piero
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
2010/11/19 Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>:
> So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> average developer?
For the average developer it helps a lot if he knows that there are
solid integrations with his favorite technologies/frameworks.
Some examples:
- JPA / JDO / Amazon S3 / HBase / MongoDB / whatever
- Spring / CDI / EJB3 / other DI containers
- GWT / jQuery / Prototype / ExtJS / etc
Some of these integrations are already available in the tapestry
world.. but they are not visible to the average developer who gives
tapestry a try. I really love how the third party modules of the Play!
Framework are visible on the main page.
Piero
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Sebastian Hennebrueder <us...@laliluna.de>.
Hi all,
I spoke to Matt after his presentation as well and started to discuss the evaluation approach by mail. As somebody mentioned, he told people to contact him in case they don't agree. He did a lot of work on the research. I have only done 3 indepth evaluations and it takes an incredible amount of time to do such things. His effort should be respected and we should provide him with easy to prove arguments based on code samples etc.
The issue is not to value Tapestry down for efficiency. In a use case of a stateless application, there are good arguments that development efficiency is a lot higher with Spring MVC or Stripes or a light way Ruby framework. His evaluation is correct in that sense. In a use case of a business application this evaluation is no longer true and due to good error messages, class reloading etc Tapestry deserves a better evaluation.
What I proposed to Matt is to work out different use cases and point out which framework does support such an approach the best way?
Just to give you a couple of different use cases:
- Business application with many dialogs to work on data -> best addressed with component based frameworks to allow heavy reuse of elements (Tapestry, Wicket, JSF 2)
- same as above but requirement of high development speed could exclude JSF 2
- integration of business process managament, JEE etc JSF2 could be in again support by JBoss Seam
- Web like application / platform -> mostly stateless, performance considerations (Stripes, Spring MVC)
- Business app with heavy interaction on a single page -> fat client approaches (GWT, Flex, CK, echo, Vaadin etc)
- Same as before but limited client performance -> approaches which build together the content on the server (Tapestry, Wicket, Vaadin)
I will keep you posted.
--
Best Regards / Viele Grüße
Sebastian Hennebrueder
-----
http://www.laliluna.de
Java software developer and trainer for Hibernate and Java Persistence
Am 23.11.2010 um 01:20 schrieb Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:20:48 -0200, Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
>> site.
>
> Cool! Thanks!
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:20:48 -0200, Igor Drobiazko
<ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
> site.
Cool! Thanks!
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
Looks great :)
Katia
2010/11/23 Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>
> Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
> site.
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >>
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> >
> > This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
> >> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility
> about
> >> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
> >> good tool.
> >>
> >
> > Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
> > http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > --
> > Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> > Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
> > and instructor
> > Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> > http://www.arsmachina.com.br
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Igor Drobiazko
> http://tapestry5.de
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
site.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>>
>
> Hi!
>
>
> This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
>> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility about
>> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
>> good tool.
>>
>
> Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
> http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
> and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
Great, please send me the password.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>>
>
> Hi!
>
>
> This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
>> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility about
>> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
>> good tool.
>>
>
> Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
> http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
> and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi all,
Hi!
> This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility
> about
> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
> good tool.
Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
Cheers!
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time. In
order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility about
what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very good
tool.
Twitter's popularity has grown amazingly. It's everywhere, and it gains more
and more place.
See here several examples of frameworks on twitter :
http://twitter.com/#!/playframework
http://twitter.com/#!/rails
http://twitter.com/#!/grailsframework
http://twitter.com/#!/SpringRoo
People follows these fw. Twitter is a buzz tool, and if you use it
correctly, it's even useful to catch nice information and articles too. It's
just a matter to follow correctly. Most people I follow use twitter just for
professional issues, so it's not just a distraction.
Several tools out there allow to co-tweet on the same account (we do it on
Duchess @duchessfr), so you could simply create a tapestry5framework account
and use it to co-tweet together articles, events, talks, impressions,
available formations, what happens on the world related to tapestry and the
web (I mean for example things with impact on tapestry not being tapestry
himself).
Cheers,
Katia
2010/11/19 Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> Going over a year was not great, for sure.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Igor Drobiazko <igor.drobiazko@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > We also need to rethink our release strategy. We need at least 3 releases
> > per year.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated
> > to
> > > the sidelines.
> > >
> > > All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least
> > once
> > > a week.
> > >
> > > We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby,
> > and
> > > to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the
> game
> > > works.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's
> > > worthwhile
> > > > to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those
> > > numbers
> > > > is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i
> > too
> > > > have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high
> of
> > > > tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
> > > >
> > > > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > > > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > > > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > > > average developer?
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> > > > <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> > > > justified,
> > > > > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> > > > >
> > > > > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I
> would
> > > > >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cheers
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Massimo
> > > > >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Christophe Cordenier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > > > > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> > > > Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> > > > Open Source / JEE Consulting
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> > >
> > > Creator of Apache Tapestry
> > >
> > > The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> > > learn
> > > how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
> > >
> > > (971) 678-5210
> > > http://howardlewisship.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Igor Drobiazko
> > http://tapestry5.de
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn
> how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
Going over a year was not great, for sure.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>wrote:
> We also need to rethink our release strategy. We need at least 3 releases
> per year.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated
> to
> > the sidelines.
> >
> > All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least
> once
> > a week.
> >
> > We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby,
> and
> > to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the game
> > works.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's
> > worthwhile
> > > to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those
> > numbers
> > > is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i
> too
> > > have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
> > > tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
> > >
> > > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > > average developer?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> > > <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> > > justified,
> > > > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> > > >
> > > > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> > > >>
> > > >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> > > >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> --
> > > >> Massimo
> > > >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Christophe Cordenier.
> > > >
> > > > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > > > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> > > Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> > > Open Source / JEE Consulting
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> >
> > Creator of Apache Tapestry
> >
> > The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> > learn
> > how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
> >
> > (971) 678-5210
> > http://howardlewisship.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Igor Drobiazko
> http://tapestry5.de
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator of Apache Tapestry
The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn
how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
We also need to rethink our release strategy. We need at least 3 releases
per year.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated to
> the sidelines.
>
> All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least once
> a week.
>
> We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby, and
> to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the game
> works.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> wrote:
>
> > Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's
> worthwhile
> > to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those
> numbers
> > is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i too
> > have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
> > tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
> >
> > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > average developer?
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> > <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> > justified,
> > > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> > >
> > > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> > >
> > >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> > >>
> > >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> > >>
> > >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> > >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> --
> > >> Massimo
> > >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > > Christophe Cordenier.
> > >
> > > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> > Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> > Open Source / JEE Consulting
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn
> how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated to
the sidelines.
All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least once
a week.
We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby, and
to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the game
works.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr> wrote:
> Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's worthwhile
> to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those numbers
> is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i too
> have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
> tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
>
> So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> average developer?
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> justified,
> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> >
> > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> >
> >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> >>
> >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> >>
> >>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> >>
> >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> --
> >> Massimo
> >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Christophe Cordenier.
> >
> > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> Open Source / JEE Consulting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator of Apache Tapestry
The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn
how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>.
Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's worthwhile
to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those numbers
is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i too
have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
average developer?
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
<ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not justified,
> he told to the audience that he will update it !
>
> 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
>
>> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
>>
>> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
>>
>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
>>
>> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
>> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
>>
>> Cheers
>> --
>> Massimo
>> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Christophe Cordenier.
>
> Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
>
--
Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
Open Source / JEE Consulting
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Christophe Cordenier <ch...@gmail.com>.
Hi
Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not justified,
he told to the audience that he will update it !
2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
>
> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
>
> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
>
> Cheers
> --
> Massimo
> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Regards,
Christophe Cordenier.
Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
The values mean:
0 is bad
0.5 means that the functionality is there but not perfect
1 is very good
I have spoken to Matt after his talk. I told him that I don't agree with
"Productivity grade". He told me it was a mistake and he will improve the
value in that column.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
>
> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
>
> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
>
> Cheers
> --
> Massimo
> http://meridio.blogspot.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de