Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,

The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.

- - - - -

I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
to giving us a fresh look.

The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
efforts require assets from our designers.

What does that mean?
- We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
(just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
- Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
do like.
- In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)

How can you help?
 - - - - -
- I have design skills! (or I think!)
-> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
of this cwiki page:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
-> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
-> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
main idea but don't worry about detail.
-> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers

- I don't have design skills?!
-> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
comments about design in these mailing lists.
-> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
comments:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
-> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
passed.

If you have any concerns about this process reply here.

Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
design comments there!

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <or...@apache.org> wrote:
> At the ASF, 72 hours is a *minimum* time.  And it is polite to step past
> known holidays and weekends as well.
>
> There needs to be some clarification here on how Apache projects do not have
> designated teams and voting is something that happens after extensive
> discussion (both on the dev list).  The goal is consensus and unanimous
> consent.
>
> Voting, when necessary, is accomplished by a particular ballot procedure,
> and there has been no such thing here.
>
> I am offering a procedural objection.  Your concerns about timing and other
> matters are fine, but the process appears to be out of line.
>

Dennis, you should be more precise about what exactly you are
objecting to.  For instance, Samer made no mention about voting in his
proposal.  So your concern about lack of a "particular ballot
procedure" appears to be misdirected.

-Rob

>  - Dennis
>
> PS: Personally, it strikes me as odd to make schedule-driven arguments on an
> Apache project.  "Rush" and similar urgency seem out of character.  It is
> not the calendar that it inflexible, it is resources and their self-selected
> contributions.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Samer Mansour [mailto:samer519@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 09:36
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; marketing@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]
>
> Hey Everyone,
>
> Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
> necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
> proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."
>
> On date and rush:
> The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
> April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
> have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
> produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
> and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
> make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.
>
> On Voting:
> I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
> even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
> community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
> particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
> checked in per say, but it is an asset.
>
> On Flex:
> Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
> and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
> is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
> community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
> totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
> we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
> contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D
>
> Moving Forward:
> I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
> passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
> work and complete the assets.
> I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
> them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
> work.
>
> Integration of the team:
> I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
> path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
> was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
> with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
> high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.
>
> Samer Mansour
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt
> <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
>> between two lists.)
>> >>
>> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>> >
>> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
>> >
>> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>>
>> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
>> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
>> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
>> downloaded app should be motivating.
>>
>> Juergen
>>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
>> proposals.
>> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
>> can
>> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
>> community and
>> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
>> effort
>> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
>> the
>> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
>> some dev
>> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What does that mean?
>> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
>> considered
>> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
>> ones we
>> >>>>> do like.
>> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
>> for
>> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
>> process that is more opinion based than most.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
>> the community may have other preferences.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>> >>>
>> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
>> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed
> survey
>> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
>> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
>> not a fait accompli.
>> >>
>> >> Validation is good.
>> >>
>> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>> >>
>> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
>> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
>> Many IMO are excellent!
>> >>
>> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>> >>
>> >> Three points.
>> >>
>> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
>> must be fairly treated.
>> >>
>> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
>> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on
> the
>> dev list.
>> >>
>> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
>> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
>> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
>> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
>> logos or designs.
>> >>
>> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
>> take it back."
>> >>
>> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
>> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
>> (validated) on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks and Regards,
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> -Rob
>> >>>
>> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
>> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
>> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
>> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could
> split
>> their vote.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
>> between two lists.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How can you help?
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
>> children
>> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
>> >>>>>
>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B
> rand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>> >>>>>
>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorat
> ions
>> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
>> have
>> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
>> capture the
>> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
>> final
>> >>>>> design:
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
>> with
>> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
>> the
>> >>>>> comments:
>> >>>>>
>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B
> rand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
>> deadline has
>> >>>>> passed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
>> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
>> and add
>> >>>>> design comments there!
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>

RE: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>]

At the ASF, 72 hours is a *minimum* time.  And it is polite to step past
known holidays and weekends as well.

There needs to be some clarification here on how Apache projects do not have
designated teams and voting is something that happens after extensive
discussion (both on the dev list).  The goal is consensus and unanimous
consent.

Voting, when necessary, is accomplished by a particular ballot procedure,
and there has been no such thing here.  

I am offering a procedural objection.  Your concerns about timing and other
matters are fine, but the process appears to be out of line.  

 - Dennis

PS: Personally, it strikes me as odd to make schedule-driven arguments on an
Apache project.  "Rush" and similar urgency seem out of character.  It is
not the calendar that it inflexible, it is resources and their self-selected
contributions.

-----Original Message-----
From: Samer Mansour [mailto:samer519@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 09:36
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; marketing@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

Hey Everyone,

Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."

On date and rush:
The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.

On Voting:
I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
checked in per say, but it is an asset.

On Flex:
Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D

Moving Forward:
I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
work and complete the assets.
I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
work.

Integration of the team:
I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.

Samer Mansour

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt
<jo...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>
> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
> >
> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
> >
> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>
> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
> downloaded app should be motivating.
>
> Juergen
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >>
> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
> proposals.
> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
> can
> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
> community and
> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
> effort
> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
> the
> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
> some dev
> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What does that mean?
> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
> considered
> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
> ones we
> >>>>> do like.
> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
> for
> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
> process that is more opinion based than most.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
> the community may have other preferences.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
> >>>
> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
> >>
> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed
survey
> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
> not a fait accompli.
> >>
> >> Validation is good.
> >>
> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
> >>
> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
> Many IMO are excellent!
> >>
> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
> >>
> >> Three points.
> >>
> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
> must be fairly treated.
> >>
> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on
the
> dev list.
> >>
> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
> logos or designs.
> >>
> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
> take it back."
> >>
> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
> (validated) on the dev list.
> >>
> >> Thanks and Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> -Rob
> >>>
> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
> >>>>
> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could
split
> their vote.
> >>>>
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How can you help?
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
> children
> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
> >>>>>
>
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B
rand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
> >>>>>
>
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorat
ions
> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
> have
> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
> capture the
> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
> final
> >>>>> design:
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
> with
> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
> the
> >>>>> comments:
> >>>>>
>
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B
rand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
> deadline has
> >>>>> passed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
> and add
> >>>>> design comments there!
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Kevin Grignon
<ke...@gmail.com>wrote:

> My pleasure.
>
> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
> > language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
> > limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't
> mind
> > if you alter the pages I've worked on.
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >
> > Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
> > design area and add more contact information and submission help so
> > volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
> > their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers
> for
> > ideas and to help implement.
> >
> > This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or
> so.
> >
> > Samer
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pescetti@apache.org
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
> >>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
> >>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
> >>> practical deadline.
> >>>
> >>
> >> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
> >>
> >> The text in
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> >> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >
> >> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate
> awareness,
> >> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but
> also a
> >> few good ones.
> >>
> >> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand,
> and
> >> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
> >> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
> >>
> >> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> >> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and
> to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
> >> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
> >> blog post, I can take care of posting it to
> http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>  Andrea.
> >>
>

KG-01: I've added my logo submissions to the 4.0 logo concepts page.

See:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations

Regards,
Kevin

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Kevin Grignon
<ke...@gmail.com>wrote:

> My pleasure.
>
> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
> > language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
> > limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't
> mind
> > if you alter the pages I've worked on.
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >
> > Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
> > design area and add more contact information and submission help so
> > volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
> > their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers
> for
> > ideas and to help implement.
> >
> > This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or
> so.
> >
> > Samer
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pescetti@apache.org
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
> >>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
> >>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
> >>> practical deadline.
> >>>
> >>
> >> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
> >>
> >> The text in
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> >> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >
> >> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate
> awareness,
> >> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but
> also a
> >> few good ones.
> >>
> >> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand,
> and
> >> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
> >> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
> >>
> >> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> >> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and
> to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
> >> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
> >> blog post, I can take care of posting it to
> http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>  Andrea.
> >>
>

KG-01: I've added my logo submissions to the 4.0 logo concepts page.

See:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations

Regards,
Kevin

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

My pleasure. 

On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
> language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
> limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't mind
> if you alter the pages I've worked on.
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> 
> Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
> design area and add more contact information and submission help so
> volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
> their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers for
> ideas and to help implement.
> 
> This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or so.
> 
> Samer
> 
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>wrote:
> 
>> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
>>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
>>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
>>> practical deadline.
>>> 
>> 
>> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
>> 
>> The text in
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate awareness,
>> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but also a
>> few good ones.
>> 
>> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, and
>> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
>> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
>> 
>> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
>> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
>> blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>> 
>> Regards,
>>  Andrea.
>> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

15:46, Samer Mansour wrote:
> That looks great!

OK, now published:
https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_designers_apache_openoffice
(and thank you for writing most of the text, actually!)

Regards,
   Andrea.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

15:46, Samer Mansour wrote:
> That looks great!

OK, now published:
https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_designers_apache_openoffice
(and thank you for writing most of the text, actually!)

Regards,
   Andrea.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Recruiting designers is great, and if we start to refine our current
> design submissions, we can leverage any additional support to accelerate
> the design avtivity
>
> As a reminder, we have a number of submissions that we should start
> considering.
>
> Design is iterative, we need to review the submissions and identify which
> design elements resonate, and continue to iterate.
>
> It feels like the challenge right now is how to move the iterative design
> process forward.
>
> I could propose a process to help drive the design process forward.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Kevin
>

Please do. :)


>
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:46 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That looks great!
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
> >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> >>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >
> >>> .
> >>> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
> >>> For Designers" And a link to the above
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at
> >>
> >> http://blogs.apache.org/**preview/OOo/?previewEntry=**
> >> call_for_designers_apache_**openoffice<
> http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice
> >
> >>
> >> Comments/suggestions welcome.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>  Andrea.
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org<
> dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"Achieving happiness requires the right combination of Zen and Zin."

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Hello all,

Recruiting designers is great, and if we start to refine our current design submissions, we can leverage any additional support to accelerate the design avtivity  

As a reminder, we have a number of submissions that we should start considering. 

Design is iterative, we need to review the submissions and identify which design elements resonate, and continue to iterate.

It feels like the challenge right now is how to move the iterative design process forward. 

I could propose a process to help drive the design process forward. 

Thoughts?

Kevin



On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:46 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That looks great!
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
>> 
>>> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>>> .
>>> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
>>> For Designers" And a link to the above
>>> 
>> 
>> Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at
>> 
>> http://blogs.apache.org/**preview/OOo/?previewEntry=**
>> call_for_designers_apache_**openoffice<http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice>
>> 
>> Comments/suggestions welcome.
>> 
>> Regards,
>>  Andrea.
>> 
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org<de...@openoffice.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>> 
>> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Hello all,

Recruiting designers is great, and if we start to refine our current design submissions, we can leverage any additional support to accelerate the design avtivity  

As a reminder, we have a number of submissions that we should start considering. 

Design is iterative, we need to review the submissions and identify which design elements resonate, and continue to iterate.

It feels like the challenge right now is how to move the iterative design process forward. 

I could propose a process to help drive the design process forward. 

Thoughts?

Kevin



On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:46 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That looks great!
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
>> 
>>> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>>> .
>>> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
>>> For Designers" And a link to the above
>>> 
>> 
>> Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at
>> 
>> http://blogs.apache.org/**preview/OOo/?previewEntry=**
>> call_for_designers_apache_**openoffice<http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice>
>> 
>> Comments/suggestions welcome.
>> 
>> Regards,
>>  Andrea.
>> 
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org<de...@openoffice.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>> 
>> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: marketing-help@openoffice.apache.org

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

That looks great!

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:

> On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
>
>> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>> .
>> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
>> For Designers" And a link to the above
>>
>
> Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at
>
> http://blogs.apache.org/**preview/OOo/?previewEntry=**
> call_for_designers_apache_**openoffice<http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice>
>
> Comments/suggestions welcome.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org<de...@openoffice.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

That looks great!

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:

> On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
>
>> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>> .
>> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
>> For Designers" And a link to the above
>>
>
> Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at
>
> http://blogs.apache.org/**preview/OOo/?previewEntry=**
> call_for_designers_apache_**openoffice<http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice>
>
> Comments/suggestions welcome.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org<de...@openoffice.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project.
> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
> For Designers" And a link to the above

Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at

http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice

Comments/suggestions welcome.

Regards,
   Andrea.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 02/03/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
> I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project.
> Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call
> For Designers" And a link to the above

Thanks. I've put together a draft blog post, using your text, at

http://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=call_for_designers_apache_openoffice

Comments/suggestions welcome.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Andrea,

I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
.
Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call For
Designers" And a link to the above

Samer

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
> language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
> limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't mind
> if you alter the pages I've worked on.
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>
> Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
> design area and add more contact information and submission help so
> volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
> their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers for
> ideas and to help implement.
>
> This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or so.
>
> Samer
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>wrote:
>
>> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
>>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
>>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
>>> practical deadline.
>>>
>>
>> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
>>
>> The text in
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate awareness,
>> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but also a
>> few good ones.
>>
>> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, and
>> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
>> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
>>
>> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
>> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
>> blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

My pleasure. 

On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
> language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
> limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't mind
> if you alter the pages I've worked on.
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> 
> Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
> design area and add more contact information and submission help so
> volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
> their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers for
> ideas and to help implement.
> 
> This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or so.
> 
> Samer
> 
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>wrote:
> 
>> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
>>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
>>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
>>> practical deadline.
>>> 
>> 
>> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
>> 
>> The text in
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate awareness,
>> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but also a
>> few good ones.
>> 
>> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, and
>> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
>> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
>> 
>> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
>> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
>> blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>> 
>> Regards,
>>  Andrea.
>> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Andrea,

I've populated some minimal how to participate info on
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
.
Could you help with making that a blog post?  Even if its short "Call For
Designers" And a link to the above

Samer

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
> language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
> limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't mind
> if you alter the pages I've worked on.
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>
> Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
> design area and add more contact information and submission help so
> volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
> their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers for
> ideas and to help implement.
>
> This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or so.
>
> Samer
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>wrote:
>
>> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
>>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
>>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
>>> practical deadline.
>>>
>>
>> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
>>
>> The text in
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
>> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate awareness,
>> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but also a
>> few good ones.
>>
>> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, and
>> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
>> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
>>
>> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
>> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
>> blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't mind
if you alter the pages I've worked on.
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project

Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
design area and add more contact information and submission help so
volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers for
ideas and to help implement.

This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or so.

Samer

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>wrote:

> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
>> practical deadline.
>>
>
> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
>
> The text in
> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate awareness,
> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but also a
> few good ones.
>
> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, and
> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
>
> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
> blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Kevin Grignon if you have spare time and experience in the area of design
language and messaging your help would be really appreciated as I have
limited experience in this area.  If you have a cwiki account, I don't mind
if you alter the pages I've worked on.
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project

Andrea I'll try to populate the wiki better so that it leads into each
design area and add more contact information and submission help so
volunteers know how to subscribe to the marketing mailing list and post
their proposals to the cwiki. Then we can blog saying we need designers for
ideas and to help implement.

This is going to take me a few days, I'm really busy in the next day or so.

Samer

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>wrote:

> On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
>> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
>> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
>> practical deadline.
>>
>
> And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.
>
> The text in
> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>
> can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate awareness,
> traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable submissions, but also a
> few good ones.
>
> Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, and
> a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a
> well-known brand and this need proper communication.
>
> I've already written this, but it would be good to add to
> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
> Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+**Refresh+Project<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project>(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the
> marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a
> blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
> practical deadline.

And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.

The text in
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate 
awareness, traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable 
submissions, but also a few good ones.

Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, 
and a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a 
well-known brand and this need proper communication.

I've already written this, but it would be good to add to 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project 
(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the 
marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a 
blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Sorry for top post. Great discussion. 

I'm glad to see some traction here. 

I will submit some designs  options for consideration. Please provide a proper window of opportunity. 

I feel this initiative is great, and if we focus on what as well as how, we can move forward.

I suggest we focus on the criteria for success, from a design language and messaging perspective. 

Earlier in this release, I have floated some ideas, as have others, and lacking a discussion on design criteria, the feedback was not generative, which places momentum and designer interest at risk. 

Can we please add the messaging goals to the marketing initiative page. These are available in the 4.0 exploration pages. 

Regards,
Kevin


On Feb 24, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey Everyone,
>> 
>> Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
>> necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
>> proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."
>> 
>> On date and rush:
>> The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
>> April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
>> have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
>> produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
>> and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
>> make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.
>> 
> 
> I'd just start moving toward the target.  If there is consensus by
> that date, then great,  If there is not, then great.  If a new
> proposal comes in at the last minute and there is consensus to take
> it, then great.  If a last minute proposal comes in and there is not
> consensus to take it, then fine.  There is no need for a hard deadline
> on submissions.  Suggesting a hard deadline just triggers the kind of
> anguish that you are seeing now.
> 
> 
>> On Voting:
>> I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
>> even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
>> community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
>> particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
>> checked in per say, but it is an asset.
>> 
> 
> There are different approaches.  If we had a grand contest, like Flex
> did, and received 50 proposals, then some sort of voting procedure
> would the practical approach to determine the most popular choice.
> Not necessarily the best choice by any objective criterion, but the
> most popular approach.
> 
> But nothing forces us to follow that approach.  It would be equally
> valid (from a community perspective) to work with the handful of
> proposals that we've received over the past 10 months or so, and work
> toward a consensus among those, or among variations on those.
> 
> Of course, the usual caveats apply.   "Design by committee" has some
> of the same downsides as having a vote by a group of non-experts.
> 
>> On Flex:
>> Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
>> and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
>> is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
>> community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
>> totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
>> we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
>> contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D
>> 
>> Moving Forward:
>> I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
>> passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
>> work and complete the assets.
>> I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
>> them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
>> work.
>> 
> 
> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
> practical deadline.
> 
> 
>> Integration of the team:
>> I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
>> path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
>> was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
>> with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
>> high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.
>> 
> 
> The trick is for community members to recognize the dangers of
> bikeshedding and know when to withhold their good-intentioned
> feedback.  That is really the only way.  If we all input our slight
> tweaks then we will circle around forever, and lose integrity of the
> design in the process.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Rob
> 
>> Samer Mansour
>> 
>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
>>> between two lists.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>>>> 
>>>> Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
>>>> 
>>>> It might be an inspiration for someone.
>>> 
>>> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
>>> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
>>> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
>>> downloaded app should be motivating.
>>> 
>>> Juergen
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
>>> proposals.
>>>>>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - - - - -
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
>>> can
>>>>>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
>>> community and
>>>>>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
>>> effort
>>>>>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
>>> the
>>>>>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>>>>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
>>> some dev
>>>>>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What does that mean?
>>>>>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
>>> considered
>>>>>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>>>>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
>>> ones we
>>>>>>>> do like.
>>>>>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
>>> for
>>>>>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
>>> process that is more opinion based than most.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
>>> the community may have other preferences.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>>>>>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>>>>>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>>>>>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>>>>>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>>>>>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>>>>>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>>>>>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>>>>>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
>>> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey
>>> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
>>> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
>>> not a fait accompli.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Validation is good.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>>>>>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>>>>>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>>>>>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
>>> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
>>> Many IMO are excellent!
>>>>> 
>>>>>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>>>>>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>>>>>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>>>>>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>>>>>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Three points.
>>>>> 
>>>>> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
>>> must be fairly treated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
>>> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the
>>> dev list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
>>> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
>>> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
>>> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
>>> logos or designs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
>>> take it back."
>>>>> 
>>>>> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
>>> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
>>> (validated) on the dev list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks and Regards,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
>>> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
>>> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
>>> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split
>>> their vote.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
>>> between two lists.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> How can you help?
>>>>>>>> - - - - -
>>>>>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>>>>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
>>> children
>>>>>>>> of this cwiki page:
>>>>>>>> 
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>>>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>>>>>>> 
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>>>>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
>>> have
>>>>>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
>>> capture the
>>>>>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>>>>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
>>> final
>>>>>>>> design:
>>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>>>>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
>>> with
>>>>>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>>>>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
>>> the
>>>>>>>> comments:
>>>>>>>> 
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>>>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
>>> deadline has
>>>>>>>> passed.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
>>> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
>>> and add
>>>>>>>> design comments there!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 23/02/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
> My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
> perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
> especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
> practical deadline.

And my advice (in addition to agreeing with Rob on this): get exposure.

The text in
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
can be copied almost verbatim to a blog post that can generate 
awareness, traffic and involvement, and perhaps a few unusable 
submissions, but also a few good ones.

Choosing a new logo is an occasion to get more attention on one hand, 
and a duty to inform current users on the other hand: we are changing a 
well-known brand and this need proper communication.

I've already written this, but it would be good to add to 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project 
(and to the possible blog post) some contact information, possibly the 
marketing or dev list. If you tweak the text so that it can be used as a 
blog post, I can take care of posting it to http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Everyone,
>
> Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
> necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
> proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."
>
> On date and rush:
> The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
> April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
> have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
> produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
> and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
> make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.
>

I'd just start moving toward the target.  If there is consensus by
that date, then great,  If there is not, then great.  If a new
proposal comes in at the last minute and there is consensus to take
it, then great.  If a last minute proposal comes in and there is not
consensus to take it, then fine.  There is no need for a hard deadline
on submissions.  Suggesting a hard deadline just triggers the kind of
anguish that you are seeing now.


> On Voting:
> I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
> even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
> community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
> particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
> checked in per say, but it is an asset.
>

There are different approaches.  If we had a grand contest, like Flex
did, and received 50 proposals, then some sort of voting procedure
would the practical approach to determine the most popular choice.
Not necessarily the best choice by any objective criterion, but the
most popular approach.

But nothing forces us to follow that approach.  It would be equally
valid (from a community perspective) to work with the handful of
proposals that we've received over the past 10 months or so, and work
toward a consensus among those, or among variations on those.

Of course, the usual caveats apply.   "Design by committee" has some
of the same downsides as having a vote by a group of non-experts.

> On Flex:
> Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
> and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
> is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
> community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
> totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
> we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
> contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D
>
> Moving Forward:
> I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
> passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
> work and complete the assets.
> I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
> them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
> work.
>

My advice:  continue pushing the effort forward, but avoid the
perception of exclusion that comes by specifying a hard deadline,
especially a sudden one.  The progress of AOO 4.0 will create its own
practical deadline.


> Integration of the team:
> I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
> path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
> was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
> with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
> high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.
>

The trick is for community members to recognize the dangers of
bikeshedding and know when to withhold their good-intentioned
feedback.  That is really the only way.  If we all input our slight
tweaks then we will circle around forever, and lose integrity of the
design in the process.

Regards,

-Rob

> Samer Mansour
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
>> between two lists.)
>> >>
>> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>> >
>> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
>> >
>> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>>
>> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
>> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
>> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
>> downloaded app should be motivating.
>>
>> Juergen
>>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
>> proposals.
>> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
>> can
>> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
>> community and
>> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
>> effort
>> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
>> the
>> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
>> some dev
>> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What does that mean?
>> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
>> considered
>> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
>> ones we
>> >>>>> do like.
>> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
>> for
>> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
>> process that is more opinion based than most.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
>> the community may have other preferences.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>> >>>
>> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
>> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey
>> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
>> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
>> not a fait accompli.
>> >>
>> >> Validation is good.
>> >>
>> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>> >>
>> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
>> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
>> Many IMO are excellent!
>> >>
>> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>> >>
>> >> Three points.
>> >>
>> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
>> must be fairly treated.
>> >>
>> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
>> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the
>> dev list.
>> >>
>> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
>> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
>> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
>> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
>> logos or designs.
>> >>
>> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
>> take it back."
>> >>
>> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
>> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
>> (validated) on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks and Regards,
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> -Rob
>> >>>
>> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
>> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
>> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
>> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split
>> their vote.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
>> between two lists.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How can you help?
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
>> children
>> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
>> have
>> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
>> capture the
>> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
>> final
>> >>>>> design:
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
>> with
>> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
>> the
>> >>>>> comments:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
>> deadline has
>> >>>>> passed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
>> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
>> and add
>> >>>>> design comments there!
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hello,

I've reached out to Nicholas Kwiatkowski of the Apache Flex project, he is
on the volunteer page as "Working on components, website, marketing."
I've asked if he knows any volunteers who can help us in the area of
website design, icons, splash screens, etc. as we'll need help implementing
those.

I'll begin working with Robin F., Chris R., and Michael A. this week in the
mean time.

Samer Mansour


On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Everyone,
>
> Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same
> time necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to
> make a proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."
>
> On date and rush:
> The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
> April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
> have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
> produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
> and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
> make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.
>
> On Voting:
> I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
> even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
> community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
> particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
> checked in per say, but it is an asset.
>
> On Flex:
> Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
> and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
> is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
> community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
> totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
> we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
> contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D
>
> Moving Forward:
> I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
> passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
> work and complete the assets.
> I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
> them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
> work.
>
> Integration of the team:
> I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
> path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
> was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
> with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
> high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.
>
> Samer Mansour
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are
>> posting between two lists.)
>> >>
>> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>> >
>> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
>> >
>> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>>
>> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
>> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
>> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
>> downloaded app should be motivating.
>>
>> Juergen
>>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
>> proposals.
>> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
>> can
>> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
>> community and
>> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on
>> the effort
>> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time
>> as the
>> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
>> some dev
>> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What does that mean?
>> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
>> considered
>> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
>> ones we
>> >>>>> do like.
>> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
>> for
>> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
>> process that is more opinion based than most.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions,
>> but the community may have other preferences.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>> >>>
>> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
>> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey
>> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
>> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
>> not a fait accompli.
>> >>
>> >> Validation is good.
>> >>
>> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>> >>
>> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
>> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
>> Many IMO are excellent!
>> >>
>> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>> >>
>> >> Three points.
>> >>
>> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
>> must be fairly treated.
>> >>
>> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
>> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the
>> dev list.
>> >>
>> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
>> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
>> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
>> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
>> logos or designs.
>> >>
>> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
>> take it back."
>> >>
>> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The
>> Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
>> (validated) on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks and Regards,
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> -Rob
>> >>>
>> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
>> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
>> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
>> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split
>> their vote.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are
>> posting between two lists.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How can you help?
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
>> children
>> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
>> have
>> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
>> capture the
>> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
>> final
>> >>>>> design:
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT
>> reply with
>> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
>> the
>> >>>>> comments:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
>> deadline has
>> >>>>> passed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
>> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
>> and add
>> >>>>> design comments there!
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hello,

I've reached out to Nicholas Kwiatkowski of the Apache Flex project, he is
on the volunteer page as "Working on components, website, marketing."
I've asked if he knows any volunteers who can help us in the area of
website design, icons, splash screens, etc. as we'll need help implementing
those.

I'll begin working with Robin F., Chris R., and Michael A. this week in the
mean time.

Samer Mansour


On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Everyone,
>
> Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same
> time necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to
> make a proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."
>
> On date and rush:
> The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
> April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
> have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
> produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
> and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
> make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.
>
> On Voting:
> I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
> even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
> community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
> particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
> checked in per say, but it is an asset.
>
> On Flex:
> Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
> and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
> is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
> community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
> totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
> we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
> contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D
>
> Moving Forward:
> I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
> passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
> work and complete the assets.
> I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
> them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
> work.
>
> Integration of the team:
> I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
> path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
> was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
> with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
> high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.
>
> Samer Mansour
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are
>> posting between two lists.)
>> >>
>> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>> >
>> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
>> >
>> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>>
>> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
>> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
>> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
>> downloaded app should be motivating.
>>
>> Juergen
>>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
>> proposals.
>> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
>> can
>> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
>> community and
>> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on
>> the effort
>> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time
>> as the
>> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
>> some dev
>> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What does that mean?
>> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
>> considered
>> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
>> ones we
>> >>>>> do like.
>> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
>> for
>> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
>> process that is more opinion based than most.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions,
>> but the community may have other preferences.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>> >>>
>> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
>> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey
>> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
>> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
>> not a fait accompli.
>> >>
>> >> Validation is good.
>> >>
>> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>> >>
>> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
>> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
>> Many IMO are excellent!
>> >>
>> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>> >>
>> >> Three points.
>> >>
>> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
>> must be fairly treated.
>> >>
>> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
>> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the
>> dev list.
>> >>
>> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
>> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
>> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
>> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
>> logos or designs.
>> >>
>> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
>> take it back."
>> >>
>> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The
>> Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
>> (validated) on the dev list.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks and Regards,
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> -Rob
>> >>>
>> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
>> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
>> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
>> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split
>> their vote.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are
>> posting between two lists.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How can you help?
>> >>>>> - - - - -
>> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
>> children
>> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
>> have
>> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
>> capture the
>> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
>> final
>> >>>>> design:
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT
>> reply with
>> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
>> the
>> >>>>> comments:
>> >>>>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
>> deadline has
>> >>>>> passed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
>> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
>> and add
>> >>>>> design comments there!
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>

RE: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>]

At the ASF, 72 hours is a *minimum* time.  And it is polite to step past
known holidays and weekends as well.

There needs to be some clarification here on how Apache projects do not have
designated teams and voting is something that happens after extensive
discussion (both on the dev list).  The goal is consensus and unanimous
consent.

Voting, when necessary, is accomplished by a particular ballot procedure,
and there has been no such thing here.  

I am offering a procedural objection.  Your concerns about timing and other
matters are fine, but the process appears to be out of line.  

 - Dennis

PS: Personally, it strikes me as odd to make schedule-driven arguments on an
Apache project.  "Rush" and similar urgency seem out of character.  It is
not the calendar that it inflexible, it is resources and their self-selected
contributions.

-----Original Message-----
From: Samer Mansour [mailto:samer519@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 09:36
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; marketing@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

Hey Everyone,

Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."

On date and rush:
The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.

On Voting:
I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
checked in per say, but it is an asset.

On Flex:
Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D

Moving Forward:
I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
work and complete the assets.
I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
work.

Integration of the team:
I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.

Samer Mansour

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt
<jo...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>
> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
> >
> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
> >
> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>
> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
> downloaded app should be motivating.
>
> Juergen
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >>
> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
> proposals.
> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
> can
> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
> community and
> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
> effort
> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
> the
> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
> some dev
> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What does that mean?
> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
> considered
> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
> ones we
> >>>>> do like.
> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
> for
> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
> process that is more opinion based than most.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
> the community may have other preferences.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
> >>>
> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
> >>
> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed
survey
> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
> not a fait accompli.
> >>
> >> Validation is good.
> >>
> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
> >>
> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
> Many IMO are excellent!
> >>
> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
> >>
> >> Three points.
> >>
> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
> must be fairly treated.
> >>
> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on
the
> dev list.
> >>
> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
> logos or designs.
> >>
> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
> take it back."
> >>
> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
> (validated) on the dev list.
> >>
> >> Thanks and Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> -Rob
> >>>
> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
> >>>>
> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could
split
> their vote.
> >>>>
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How can you help?
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
> children
> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
> >>>>>
>
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B
rand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
> >>>>>
>
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorat
ions
> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
> have
> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
> capture the
> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
> final
> >>>>> design:
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
> with
> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
> the
> >>>>> comments:
> >>>>>
>
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B
rand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
> deadline has
> >>>>> passed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
> and add
> >>>>> design comments there!
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hey Everyone,

Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."

On date and rush:
The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.

On Voting:
I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
checked in per say, but it is an asset.

On Flex:
Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D

Moving Forward:
I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
work and complete the assets.
I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
work.

Integration of the team:
I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.

Samer Mansour

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>
> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
> >
> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
> >
> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>
> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
> downloaded app should be motivating.
>
> Juergen
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >>
> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
> proposals.
> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
> can
> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
> community and
> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
> effort
> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
> the
> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
> some dev
> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What does that mean?
> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
> considered
> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
> ones we
> >>>>> do like.
> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
> for
> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
> process that is more opinion based than most.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
> the community may have other preferences.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
> >>>
> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
> >>
> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey
> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
> not a fait accompli.
> >>
> >> Validation is good.
> >>
> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
> >>
> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
> Many IMO are excellent!
> >>
> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
> >>
> >> Three points.
> >>
> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
> must be fairly treated.
> >>
> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the
> dev list.
> >>
> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
> logos or designs.
> >>
> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
> take it back."
> >>
> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
> (validated) on the dev list.
> >>
> >> Thanks and Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> -Rob
> >>>
> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
> >>>>
> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split
> their vote.
> >>>>
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How can you help?
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
> children
> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
> have
> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
> capture the
> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
> final
> >>>>> design:
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
> with
> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
> the
> >>>>> comments:
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
> deadline has
> >>>>> passed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
> and add
> >>>>> design comments there!
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hey Everyone,

Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time
necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a
proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days."

On date and rush:
The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is
April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing.  We all would like to
have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable.  What I've seen
produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months
and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can
make the 04/04 target.  Our volunteers are very eager to start.

On Voting:
I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas
even if they are not artistically inclined.  I'm relatively new to the
community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this
particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be
checked in per say, but it is an asset.

On Flex:
Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students
and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature
is more exposed to designers.  I would be horrified to find flex's
community had anything less than an amazing site.  Having said that I would
totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that
we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature
contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D

Moving Forward:
I know this will be a very opinionated activity.  I invite anyone who is
passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the
work and complete the assets.
I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust
them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the
work.

Integration of the team:
I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right
path.  Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font
was a little off.  Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree
with.  If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a
high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's.

Samer Mansour

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>
> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
> >
> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
> >
> > It might be an inspiration for someone.
>
> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
> downloaded app should be motivating.
>
> Juergen
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >>
> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to
> proposals.
> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we
> can
> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our
> community and
> >>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the
> effort
> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as
> the
> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because
> some dev
> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What does that mean?
> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be
> considered
> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating
> ones we
> >>>>> do like.
> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present
> for
> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a
> process that is more opinion based than most.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but
> the community may have other preferences.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
> >>>
> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
> >>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
> >>
> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not
> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey
> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single
> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is
> not a fait accompli.
> >>
> >> Validation is good.
> >>
> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
> >>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
> >>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
> >>
> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there
> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed.
> Many IMO are excellent!
> >>
> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
> >>
> >> Three points.
> >>
> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions
> must be fairly treated.
> >>
> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY
> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the
> dev list.
> >>
> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected
> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or
> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the
> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting
> logos or designs.
> >>
> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful
> take it back."
> >>
> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache
> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made
> (validated) on the dev list.
> >>
> >> Thanks and Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> -Rob
> >>>
> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can
> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
> >>>>
> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over
> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong
> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split
> their vote.
> >>>>
> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting
> between two lists.)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How can you help?
> >>>>> - - - - -
> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see
> children
> >>>>> of this cwiki page:
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only
> have
> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal,
> capture the
> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the
> final
> >>>>> design:
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply
> with
> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in
> the
> >>>>> comments:
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the
> deadline has
> >>>>> passed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization
> hurdles to make certain branding changes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki
> and add
> >>>>> design comments there!
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>]

On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> 
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> 
>>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>>
>> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
> 
> Look at http://flex.apache.org/.
> 
> It might be an inspiration for someone.

I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe
you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help
us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million
downloaded app should be motivating.

Juergen

> 
> Regards,
> Dave
> 
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>>>>
>>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>>>>
>>>>> - - - - -
>>>>>
>>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>>>>
>>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does that mean?
>>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>>>> do like.
>>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>>>>
>>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>>>>
>>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>>>
>>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>>
>> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.
>>
>> Validation is good.
>>
>>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>>
>> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!
>>
>>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>>
>> Three points.
>>
>> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.
>>
>> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.
>>
>> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.
>>
>> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."
>>
>> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.
>>
>> Thanks and Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>>>>
>>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>>>>
>>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How can you help?
>>>>> - - - - -
>>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>>>> of this cwiki page:
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>>>>
>>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>>>> comments:
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>>>> passed.
>>>>
>>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>>>> design comments there!
>>>>
>>
> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:

>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
> 
> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.

Look at http://flex.apache.org/.

It might be an inspiration for someone.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>>> 
>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>>> 
>>>> - - - - -
>>>> 
>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>>> 
>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>>> 
>>>> What does that mean?
>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>>> do like.
>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>>> 
>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>>> 
>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>>> 
>> 
>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>> 
>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
> 
> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.
> 
> Validation is good.
> 
>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
> 
> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!
> 
>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
> 
> Three points.
> 
> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.
> 
> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.
> 
> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.
> 
> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."
> 
> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> Dave
> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -Rob
>> 
>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>>> 
>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>>> 
>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> How can you help?
>>>> - - - - -
>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>>> of this cwiki page:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>>> 
>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>>> comments:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>>> passed.
>>> 
>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>>> 
>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>>> design comments there!
>>> 
> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>
> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>>>
>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>>>
>>>> - - - - -
>>>>
>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>>>
>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>>>
>>>> What does that mean?
>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>>> do like.
>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>>>
>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>>>
>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>>
>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>
> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.
>
> Validation is good.
>
>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>
> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!
>

The fact that there is more than one proposal does not recommend a
vote.  It recommends discussion and building consensus.  Voting is the
crudest way to gain consensus, if it even works to do that.

>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>
> Three points.
>
> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.
>

I don't think anyone has suggested being unfair.

> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.
>

Lazy consensus can *always* be sought.  If there are objections, then
we can discuss.  Voting should be the *last resort*, since with voting
some win and some loose.

> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.
>
> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."
>

No one said anything about a veto.  I think you would agree that there
are intermediate things between not being able to *assume* consensus
and an outright veto.

In any case, not agreeing that there *could be* lazy consensus before
even seeing a proposal pushed forward is pointless.

> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.
>

Right.  And if the marketing list brings forward a single proposal, I
absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And if someone wants to bring
forward a proposal not from the marketing list then that is fine as
well.

-Rob

> Thanks and Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>>>
>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>>>
>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> How can you help?
>>>> - - - - -
>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>>> of this cwiki page:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>>>
>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>>> comments:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>>> passed.
>>>
>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>>>
>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>>> design comments there!
>>>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>
> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>>>
>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>>>
>>>> - - - - -
>>>>
>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>>>
>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>>>
>>>> What does that mean?
>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>>> do like.
>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>>>
>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>>>
>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>>
>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
>
> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.
>
> Validation is good.
>
>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
>
> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!
>

The fact that there is more than one proposal does not recommend a
vote.  It recommends discussion and building consensus.  Voting is the
crudest way to gain consensus, if it even works to do that.

>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
>
> Three points.
>
> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.
>

I don't think anyone has suggested being unfair.

> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.
>

Lazy consensus can *always* be sought.  If there are objections, then
we can discuss.  Voting should be the *last resort*, since with voting
some win and some loose.

> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.
>
> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."
>

No one said anything about a veto.  I think you would agree that there
are intermediate things between not being able to *assume* consensus
and an outright veto.

In any case, not agreeing that there *could be* lazy consensus before
even seeing a proposal pushed forward is pointless.

> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.
>

Right.  And if the marketing list brings forward a single proposal, I
absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And if someone wants to bring
forward a proposal not from the marketing list then that is fine as
well.

-Rob

> Thanks and Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>>>
>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>>>
>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> How can you help?
>>>> - - - - -
>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>>> of this cwiki page:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>>>
>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>>> comments:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>>> passed.
>>>
>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>>>
>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>>> design comments there!
>>>
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:

>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
> 
> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.

Look at http://flex.apache.org/.

It might be an inspiration for someone.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>>> 
>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>>> 
>>>> - - - - -
>>>> 
>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>>> 
>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>>> 
>>>> What does that mean?
>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>>> do like.
>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>>> 
>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>>> 
>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>>> 
>> 
>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
>> 
>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
>> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
>> bikeshedding on the dev list.
> 
> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.
> 
> Validation is good.
> 
>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
>> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
>> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.
> 
> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!
> 
>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.
> 
> Three points.
> 
> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.
> 
> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.
> 
> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.
> 
> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."
> 
> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> Dave
> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -Rob
>> 
>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>>> 
>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>>> 
>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> How can you help?
>>>> - - - - -
>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>>> of this cwiki page:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>>> 
>>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>>> comments:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>>> passed.
>>> 
>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>>> 
>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>>> design comments there!
>>> 
> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)

Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.

On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>> 
>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>> 
>>> - - - - -
>>> 
>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>> 
>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>> 
>>> What does that mean?
>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>> do like.
>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>> 
>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>> 
>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>> 
> 
> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
> 
> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
> bikeshedding on the dev list.

The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.

Validation is good.

> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.

Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!

> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.

Three points.

(1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.

(2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.

(3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.

A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."

This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.

Thanks and Regards,
Dave

> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Rob
> 
>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>> 
>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>> 
>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>> 
>>> 
>>> How can you help?
>>> - - - - -
>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>> of this cwiki page:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>> 
>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>> comments:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>> passed.
>> 
>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>>> 
>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>> 
>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>> design comments there!
>> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)

Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work.

On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>> 
>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>> 
>>> - - - - -
>>> 
>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>> 
>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>> 
>>> What does that mean?
>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>>> do like.
>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>> 
>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>> 
>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>> 
> 
> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.
> 
> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
> the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
> bikeshedding on the dev list.

The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed survey is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is not a fait accompli.

Validation is good.

> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
> almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
> minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.

Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. Many IMO are excellent!

> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
> working with a small set of already-active volunteers.

Three points.

(1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions must be fairly treated.

(2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on the dev list.

(3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting logos or designs.

A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful take it back."

This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made (validated) on the dev list.

Thanks and Regards,
Dave

> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Rob
> 
>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>> 
>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>> 
>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>> 
>>> 
>>> How can you help?
>>> - - - - -
>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>>> of this cwiki page:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>> 
>>> - I don't have design skills?!
>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>>> comments:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>>> passed.
>> 
>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>>> 
>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>> 
>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>>> design comments there!
>> 

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:
>
>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>>
>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>>
>> - - - - -
>>
>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
>> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
>> to giving us a fresh look.
>>
>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
>> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
>> efforts require assets from our designers.
>>
>> What does that mean?
>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
>> do like.
>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>
> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.
>
> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.
>

Indeed I assume there would be many opinions.  But in the discussion
that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established
design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some
trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might
yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400
subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions.

Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what
the general public thinks is important.  True, but that is better done
with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by
bikeshedding on the dev list.

We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for
almost a year now.  We're no closer to than we were when we started.
Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last
minute?  Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward.

And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this
process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time.  But I
don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to
pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and
working with a small set of already-active volunteers.

Regards,

-Rob

> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.
>
> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.
>
> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)
>
>>
>> How can you help?
>> - - - - -
>> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
>> of this cwiki page:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
>> main idea but don't worry about detail.
>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
>> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>>
>> - I don't have design skills?!
>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
>> comments about design in these mailing lists.
>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
>> comments:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
>> passed.
>
> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>>
>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
>> design comments there!
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:

> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
> 
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
> to giving us a fresh look.
> 
> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
> efforts require assets from our designers.
> 
> What does that mean?
> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
> do like.
> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)

I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.

It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.

I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.

I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.

(Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)

> 
> How can you help?
> - - - - -
> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
> of this cwiki page:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
> 
> - I don't have design skills?!
> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
> comments:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
> passed.

I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> 
> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
> design comments there!

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>

Saturday seems to closeby I would think a week will be a good lead to give
the chance to additional proposals. And late proposals as well.



>
> - - - - -
>
> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
> to giving us a fresh look.
>
> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
> efforts require assets from our designers.
>
> What does that mean?
> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
> do like.
> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>
> How can you help?
>  - - - - -
> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
> of this cwiki page:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>
> - I don't have design skills?!
> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
> comments:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
> passed.
>
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>
> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
> design comments there!
>



-- 
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
http://es.openoffice.org

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>]

On 2/21/13 8:43 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> On 20/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals. ...
>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> 
> My main concern is that Saturday is very close. It is true that we have
> been talking about designs for weeks. But we never announced a deadline.
> So I would consider to give maximum visibility to the announcement for a
> while (like temporarily changing the main site announcement to "Submit
> your proposals for a new OpenOffice logo! Deadline: 23/2", link to
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> ; and add a link to the dev or marketing list to the wiki page) and then
> extending the deadline until, say, 28 February, ONLY if we receive
> requests in that direction by Saturday.
> 

I agree, we need to push it but 72 hours and ending on Saturday is not
necessary. But anyway thanks for driving it.

Juergen

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 20/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals. ...
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.

My main concern is that Saturday is very close. It is true that we have 
been talking about designs for weeks. But we never announced a deadline. 
So I would consider to give maximum visibility to the announcement for a 
while (like temporarily changing the main site announcement to "Submit 
your proposals for a new OpenOffice logo! Deadline: 23/2", link to 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project 
; and add a link to the dev or marketing list to the wiki page) and then 
extending the deadline until, say, 28 February, ONLY if we receive 
requests in that direction by Saturday.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kadal Amutham <vk...@gmail.com>]

Once the logo and other content are ready I can neatly organize into a
page, give  all the links etc

With Warm Regards

V.Kadal Amutham
919444360480
914422396480


On 20 February 2013 21:43, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>
> - - - - -
>
> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
> to giving us a fresh look.
>
> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
> efforts require assets from our designers.
>
> What does that mean?
> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
> do like.
> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>
> How can you help?
>  - - - - -
> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
> of this cwiki page:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>
> - I don't have design skills?!
> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
> comments:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
> passed.
>
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>
> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
> design comments there!
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>

Saturday seems to closeby I would think a week will be a good lead to give
the chance to additional proposals. And late proposals as well.



>
> - - - - -
>
> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
> to giving us a fresh look.
>
> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
> efforts require assets from our designers.
>
> What does that mean?
> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
> do like.
> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>
> How can you help?
>  - - - - -
> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
> of this cwiki page:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>
> - I don't have design skills?!
> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
> comments:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
> passed.
>
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>
> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
> design comments there!
>



-- 
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
http://es.openoffice.org

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 20/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote:
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals. ...
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.

My main concern is that Saturday is very close. It is true that we have 
been talking about designs for weeks. But we never announced a deadline. 
So I would consider to give maximum visibility to the announcement for a 
while (like temporarily changing the main site announcement to "Submit 
your proposals for a new OpenOffice logo! Deadline: 23/2", link to 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project 
; and add a link to the dev or marketing list to the wiki page) and then 
extending the deadline until, say, 28 February, ONLY if we receive 
requests in that direction by Saturday.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Kadal Amutham <vk...@gmail.com>]

Once the logo and other content are ready I can neatly organize into a
page, give  all the links etc

With Warm Regards

V.Kadal Amutham
919444360480
914422396480


On 20 February 2013 21:43, Samer Mansour <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
>
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
>
> - - - - -
>
> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
> to giving us a fresh look.
>
> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
> efforts require assets from our designers.
>
> What does that mean?
> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
> do like.
> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)
>
> How can you help?
>  - - - - -
> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
> of this cwiki page:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
>
> - I don't have design skills?!
> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
> comments:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
> passed.
>
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
>
> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
> design comments there!
>

Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs]

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote:

> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community,
> 
> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to proposals.
> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we can
> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our community and
> users.  For this special release the marketing team is taking on the effort
> to giving us a fresh look.
> 
> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as the
> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we
> actually need to do the work to get us there.  Specially because some dev
> efforts require assets from our designers.
> 
> What does that mean?
> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be considered
> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry).
> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating ones we
> do like.
> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present for
> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan)

I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a process that is more opinion based than most.

It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but the community may have other preferences.

I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic.

I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could split their vote.

(Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting between two lists.)

> 
> How can you help?
> - - - - -
> - I have design skills! (or I think!)
> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see children
> of this cwiki page:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorations
> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only have
> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, capture the
> main idea but don't worry about detail.
> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the final
> design: https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers
> 
> - I don't have design skills?!
> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply with
> comments about design in these mailing lists.
> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in the
> comments:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project
> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the deadline has
> passed.

I have added comments including the volunteer and organization hurdles to make certain branding changes.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> If you have any concerns about this process reply here.
> 
> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs!  Go to the wiki and add
> design comments there!