You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@xmlgraphics.apache.org by Glen Mazza <gm...@apache.org> on 2006/05/15 17:08:23 UTC
removing votes from committers
Jeremias,
I was reviewing your statements[1] about how decisions are made on
Apache projects, namely that on XML Graphics, committers do *not* have a
vote and it is not the committers who nominate contributors for
committership.
However, what you are telling us appears to contradict rules 8.2 and 8.4
of our project charter[2], which we voted for and the Apache Board
already approved. The charter rules state that the committers vote on
code changes and on nominations for other committers. So your
clarifications made to Thomas appear incorrect, as he was actually
acting within the boundaries of the XML Graphics charter in holding a
committer vote for his subproject.
If it is indeed the case the XML Graphics project must follow the
charter of the Apache HTTPD one (in which committer voting is forbidden)
why did the board have us create our own charter, with our own unique
rules? Further, if the Apache boards finds committer voting to be so
reprehensible, why did they approve our charter then, which explicitly
calls for that?
I think Leo Simons should explain personally why he finds committer
voting to be so reprehensible that we now need to discard the XML
Graphics charter rules on this issue. Also, the Apache Board will need
to be sufficiently mortified by committer voting that it will declare
the XML Graphics charter to be null and void. Failing that, according
to the charter, you will need to run a vote among the PMC members (of
which I am not one, nor plan to join for this vote) to remove votes from
committers. Until then, the charter has to remain in force, with
committers continuing to vote on subproject-related matters.
Whatever anyone's personal concerns with committer voting, I'm sure you
agree with me that just disregarding/ignoring the charter would create a
much worse problem for us down the road.
Thanks,
Glen
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=114709325926065&w=2
[2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=110802440807292&w=2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache XML Graphics Project URL: http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org
Re: removing votes from committers
Posted by "J.Pietschmann" <j3...@yahoo.de>.
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
> At the very least, retaining the project mission will certainly be
> worthwhile as it gives the project the necessary focus.
+1
I'll have a first look at it on Wednesday.
J.Pietschmann
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache XML Graphics Project URL: http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org
Re: removing votes from committers
Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>.
At the very least, retaining the project mission will certainly be
worthwhile as it gives the project the necessary focus.
On 15.05.2006 18:56:01 Glen Mazza wrote:
> Jeremias Maerki wrote:
>
> >Only problem: ASF policy overrules any charter we give ourselves. It was
> >even repeatedly said on member lists that project charters are
> >unnecessary which I agree today since the general policy document has
> >improved a lot since last year.
> >
> >
> OK then--providing the Apache Board has a generic (hopefully
> lawyer-generated also) charter good for all the projects, I think we
> should officially nullify our own project charter--get rid of it. For
> legal reasons, it doesn't help to have two charters that conflict with
> each other. The PMC members can vote to void it.
>
> >> Further, if the Apache boards finds committer voting to be so
> >>reprehensible, why did they approve our charter then, which explicitly
> >>calls for that?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >You need to keep in mind that a lot of policy stuff has been clarified
> >in the last 12 months.
> >
> Sure, that's normal, that happens.
>
> >> Also, the Apache Board will need
> >>to be sufficiently mortified by committer voting that it will declare
> >>the XML Graphics charter to be null and void. Failing that, according
> >>to the charter, you will need to run a vote among the PMC members (of
> >>which I am not one, nor plan to join for this vote) to remove votes from
> >>committers. Until then, the charter has to remain in force, with
> >>committers continuing to vote on subproject-related matters.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >As I said above, ASF policy comes first. The charter was built on some
> >assumptions which turned out to be wrong after the clarifications. What
> >we obviously need to do (and which I failed to recognize) is to amend
> >our charter so it is in line with ASF policy.
> >
> >
> I don't think amending it is the best option--because what happens if
> they fall out of sync again? Best to void the document entirely, but if
> we have to retain it, then to explicitly state the "any ASF policy
> overriding this charter takes precedence" and to *remove* any provision
> (such as the roles of PMC members and committers) that the ASF already
> has predefined. Just updating the charter provisions to bring them in
> line with current ASF policy still leaves vague which has precedence.
Jeremias Maerki
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache XML Graphics Project URL: http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org
Re: removing votes from committers
Posted by Glen Mazza <gm...@apache.org>.
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
>Only problem: ASF policy overrules any charter we give ourselves. It was
>even repeatedly said on member lists that project charters are
>unnecessary which I agree today since the general policy document has
>improved a lot since last year.
>
>
OK then--providing the Apache Board has a generic (hopefully
lawyer-generated also) charter good for all the projects, I think we
should officially nullify our own project charter--get rid of it. For
legal reasons, it doesn't help to have two charters that conflict with
each other. The PMC members can vote to void it.
>> Further, if the Apache boards finds committer voting to be so
>>reprehensible, why did they approve our charter then, which explicitly
>>calls for that?
>>
>>
>
>You need to keep in mind that a lot of policy stuff has been clarified
>in the last 12 months.
>
Sure, that's normal, that happens.
>> Also, the Apache Board will need
>>to be sufficiently mortified by committer voting that it will declare
>>the XML Graphics charter to be null and void. Failing that, according
>>to the charter, you will need to run a vote among the PMC members (of
>>which I am not one, nor plan to join for this vote) to remove votes from
>>committers. Until then, the charter has to remain in force, with
>>committers continuing to vote on subproject-related matters.
>>
>>
>
>As I said above, ASF policy comes first. The charter was built on some
>assumptions which turned out to be wrong after the clarifications. What
>we obviously need to do (and which I failed to recognize) is to amend
>our charter so it is in line with ASF policy.
>
>
I don't think amending it is the best option--because what happens if
they fall out of sync again? Best to void the document entirely, but if
we have to retain it, then to explicitly state the "any ASF policy
overriding this charter takes precedence" and to *remove* any provision
(such as the roles of PMC members and committers) that the ASF already
has predefined. Just updating the charter provisions to bring them in
line with current ASF policy still leaves vague which has precedence.
Thanks,
Glen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache XML Graphics Project URL: http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org
Re: removing votes from committers
Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>.
On 15.05.2006 17:08:23 Glen Mazza wrote:
> Jeremias,
>
> I was reviewing your statements[1] about how decisions are made on
> Apache projects, namely that on XML Graphics, committers do *not* have a
> vote and it is not the committers who nominate contributors for
> committership.
>
> However, what you are telling us appears to contradict rules 8.2 and 8.4
> of our project charter[2], which we voted for and the Apache Board
> already approved.
I don't know if "approved" is right word in this case. They may have
read it. It was only an attachment to the board report in Feb 2005.
> The charter rules state that the committers vote on
> code changes and on nominations for other committers. So your
> clarifications made to Thomas appear incorrect, as he was actually
> acting within the boundaries of the XML Graphics charter in holding a
> committer vote for his subproject.
Only problem: ASF policy overrules any charter we give ourselves. It was
even repeatedly said on member lists that project charters are
unnecessary which I agree today since the general policy document has
improved a lot since last year.
> If it is indeed the case the XML Graphics project must follow the
> charter of the Apache HTTPD one (in which committer voting is forbidden)
not HTTPD charter, ASF policy!
> why did the board have us create our own charter, with our own unique
> rules?
They didn't. We thought we had to, coming from the XML project.
> Further, if the Apache boards finds committer voting to be so
> reprehensible, why did they approve our charter then, which explicitly
> calls for that?
You need to keep in mind that a lot of policy stuff has been clarified
in the last 12 months. Committer voting is not at all reprehensible.
Committer votes are simply not binding [1]. It's as simple as that: The
PMC is the only entity in the project that has the authority to take
decisions on behalf of the project. The PMC can approve decisions by
committers by silent assent which is something that happens every day
here.
[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#committers
> I think Leo Simons should explain personally why he finds committer
> voting to be so reprehensible that we now need to discard the XML
> Graphics charter rules on this issue.
...or at least rework it. Leo Simons has nothing to explain. He made me
aware that I need to better enforce policy decisions by the Board.
> Also, the Apache Board will need
> to be sufficiently mortified by committer voting that it will declare
> the XML Graphics charter to be null and void. Failing that, according
> to the charter, you will need to run a vote among the PMC members (of
> which I am not one, nor plan to join for this vote) to remove votes from
> committers. Until then, the charter has to remain in force, with
> committers continuing to vote on subproject-related matters.
As I said above, ASF policy comes first. The charter was built on some
assumptions which turned out to be wrong after the clarifications. What
we obviously need to do (and which I failed to recognize) is to amend
our charter so it is in line with ASF policy.
The clarified policy was strongly influenced by legal considerations.
The intention of the Board is to strengthen the ASF against possible
law-suits.
> Whatever anyone's personal concerns with committer voting, I'm sure you
> agree with me that just disregarding/ignoring the charter would create a
> much worse problem for us down the road.
Only if we disrespect anyone by simply ignoring an opinion or a
(effectively non-binding) vote stated by a committer.
> Thanks,
> Glen
>
> [1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=114709325926065&w=2
> [2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=110802440807292&w=2
I hope the above explains the situation better.
PMC, looks like we have some work to do: amending the charter. Any
volunteers?
Thanks,
Jeremias Maerki
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache XML Graphics Project URL: http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xmlgraphics.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xmlgraphics.apache.org