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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Andy Blower <an...@proquest.co.uk> on 2008/03/29 10:44:32 UTC
[T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web framework we'll
use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1 for the
last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher maintenance
than was first apparent. I have spent over two days reading about Tapestry
history and general thoughts about past and future which has proved rather
distracting. I'm really not sure whether I should evaluate 4.1 or 5 because
the documentation and intro/tutorial material isn't ready yet for 5 and I'm
completely new to component oriented frameworks. If I evaluated 4.1, would
that be valid for us still to go on to use 5? It's really hard to get a
handle on the differences of two things you don't yet understand!
I have three (more specific) questions:
1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in Tapestry
(e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one considered
'best practice'?
2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
success and visually change the appearance.
3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common functionality,
which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
With the only T5 examples being so trivial, it's really hard to get a bigger
picture view at the moment, but I am very intrigued.
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Andy Blower <an...@proquest.co.uk>.
Thanks for your concern Rob, but I'm pretty comfortable evaluating things
myself and have already read that discussion. The backward compatibility
history of Tapestry will certainly be taken into consideration. (that was
the distraction I mentioned) Sometimes it's better to break backwards
compatibility rather than keep sub-optimal design, and it's much better than
being mostly backwards compatible except for a few details that trip people
up unexpectedly. (voice of experience talking)
To everyone else - thanks for your help and comments, hopefully I'll get
some time to look into them early this week.
Andy.
Rob Smeets wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Be wise and dig around the Internet to find answers to your questions and
> don't turn to this list since they won't offer you a non-biased answers.
> For
> a starter go to theserverside.com where recently a discussion was held on
> Tapestry. The link is:
> http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=48743
>
> Personally, I won't advise you to go with Tapestry due to it's bad record
> on
> backward compatibility.
>
> Rob
>
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Michael Gerzabek <mi...@gmx.net>.
Hi Rob or however you are!
Nice to see you spicing up this list ;)
Your comments are always very thoughtful so everybody on this list can
feel how you from your deepest heart care about people on this list as
well as the evolution of Tapestry. Thank you for your invaluable
contribution!
Reading your answer to Andys post one thing came to my mind and I really
would appreciate you answering my question:
Did you realize that Andy asked very concise questions?
He didn't ask should I or should I not use Tapestry but in fact he was
going well beyond the surface. If you'd the mental elasticity to surpass
your innate denial of Tapestry and come up with concrete answers to
concrete questions I would even like your posts more.
Regards,
Michael
Rob Smeets schrieb:
> Hi Andy,
>
> Be wise and dig around the Internet to find answers to your questions and
> don't turn to this list since they won't offer you a non-biased answers. For
> a starter go to theserverside.com where recently a discussion was held on
> Tapestry. The link is:
> http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=48743
>
> Personally, I won't advise you to go with Tapestry due to it's bad record on
> backward compatibility.
>
> Rob
>
> On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Andy Blower <an...@proquest.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web framework
>> we'll
>> use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1 for the
>> last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher maintenance
>> than was first apparent. I have spent over two days reading about Tapestry
>> history and general thoughts about past and future which has proved rather
>> distracting. I'm really not sure whether I should evaluate 4.1 or 5
>> because
>> the documentation and intro/tutorial material isn't ready yet for 5 and
>> I'm
>> completely new to component oriented frameworks. If I evaluated 4.1, would
>> that be valid for us still to go on to use 5? It's really hard to get a
>> handle on the differences of two things you don't yet understand!
>>
>> I have three (more specific) questions:
>>
>> 1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in Tapestry
>> (e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one considered
>> 'best practice'?
>>
>> 2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
>> interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
>> success and visually change the appearance.
>>
>> 3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common functionality,
>> which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
>> templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
>>
>> With the only T5 examples being so trivial, it's really hard to get a
>> bigger
>> picture view at the moment, but I am very intrigued.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/-T5--Tapestry-evaluation-%2B-questions-tp16368331p16368331.html
>> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Rob Smeets <rb...@gmail.com>.
Hi Andy,
Be wise and dig around the Internet to find answers to your questions and
don't turn to this list since they won't offer you a non-biased answers. For
a starter go to theserverside.com where recently a discussion was held on
Tapestry. The link is:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=48743
Personally, I won't advise you to go with Tapestry due to it's bad record on
backward compatibility.
Rob
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Andy Blower <an...@proquest.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web framework
> we'll
> use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1 for the
> last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher maintenance
> than was first apparent. I have spent over two days reading about Tapestry
> history and general thoughts about past and future which has proved rather
> distracting. I'm really not sure whether I should evaluate 4.1 or 5
> because
> the documentation and intro/tutorial material isn't ready yet for 5 and
> I'm
> completely new to component oriented frameworks. If I evaluated 4.1, would
> that be valid for us still to go on to use 5? It's really hard to get a
> handle on the differences of two things you don't yet understand!
>
> I have three (more specific) questions:
>
> 1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in Tapestry
> (e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one considered
> 'best practice'?
>
> 2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
> interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
> success and visually change the appearance.
>
> 3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common functionality,
> which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
> templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
>
> With the only T5 examples being so trivial, it's really hard to get a
> bigger
> picture view at the moment, but I am very intrigued.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/-T5--Tapestry-evaluation-%2B-questions-tp16368331p16368331.html
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>
>
Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Ektschn <fl...@gmail.com>.
Andy Blower wrote:
>
> 2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
> interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
> success and visually change the appearance.
>
For this I would advise you to use t5components - an ajax-enabled component
package.
The onEvent-mixin can be added to any other components, and on defined
events such as blur, change, click, dblclick, error, focus, keydown,
keypress keyup, load, mousedown, mousemove, mouseout, mouseover, mouseup,
reset, select, submit and unload it will call a java-function.
template code:
<input t:type="TextField" t:id="mytextfield" value="textFieldValue"
t:mixins="t5components/OnEvent" event="blur" />
java event code:
@OnEvent(component = "mytextfield", value = 'blur')
public StreamResponse onBlurEvent(String value)
{
return new TextStreamResponse("text/html", value);
}
See http://213.160.23.119:8080/t5c-demo/oneventpage.
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Michael Lake <ml...@netvue.com>.
Andy, you should take a look at tapestry jumpstart by geoff callender: http://files.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/
I only wish there were a demo server of this somewhere because the
webapp itself will show its template + class in the browser.
-mike
On Mar 29, 2008, at 5:44 AM, Andy Blower wrote:
>
> Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web
> framework we'll
> use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1
> for the
> last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher
> maintenance
> than was first apparent. I have spent over two days reading about
> Tapestry
> history and general thoughts about past and future which has proved
> rather
> distracting. I'm really not sure whether I should evaluate 4.1 or 5
> because
> the documentation and intro/tutorial material isn't ready yet for 5
> and I'm
> completely new to component oriented frameworks. If I evaluated 4.1,
> would
> that be valid for us still to go on to use 5? It's really hard to
> get a
> handle on the differences of two things you don't yet understand!
>
> I have three (more specific) questions:
>
> 1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in
> Tapestry
> (e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one
> considered
> 'best practice'?
>
> 2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
> interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
> success and visually change the appearance.
>
> 3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common
> functionality,
> which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
> templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
>
> With the only T5 examples being so trivial, it's really hard to get
> a bigger
> picture view at the moment, but I am very intrigued.
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-T5--Tapestry-evaluation-%2B-questions-tp16368331p16368331.html
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Angelo Chen <an...@yahoo.com.hk>.
Hi Fernando,
I think so, if you want to be wisiwig, use regular tags, but programmers
turn to use the component tags for that as it is easier to read, so that's
really a 'policy' issue, if it's a team work i think regular tags are
better.
Angelo
Fernando Padilla wrote:
>
> I am actually using this syntax, so that I should get the best of both
> worlds.
>
>
>
>
> Angelo Chen wrote:
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> Initially I use dreamweaver to design the page, and make it a point to
>> use
>> regular tags like:
>> my Link , this will make it easier for me to go back to dreamweaver for
>> page
>> update, but later I found out that I started to write <t:actionLink>my
>> link</t:actionLink> and not coming back any more to dreamweaver, I fire
>> up
>> FireBug, change the layout in the fly, and then update the t5 template
>> and
>> try again, it works quite well with me, but this will not work well if
>> the
>> pages have to be maintained by a html designer, is this what you are
>> doing
>> too? thanks.
>>
>> Angelo
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Barker wrote:
>>>
>>> HTML, CSS and a browser and focus on appearances. With T5, it's easier
>>> just
>>> to run your app and tweak on the fly.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Fernando Padilla <fe...@alum.mit.edu>.
I am actually using this syntax, so that I should get the best of both
worlds.
<a t:type="actionLink" ...></a>
Angelo Chen wrote:
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Initially I use dreamweaver to design the page, and make it a point to use
> regular tags like:
> my Link , this will make it easier for me to go back to dreamweaver for page
> update, but later I found out that I started to write <t:actionLink>my
> link</t:actionLink> and not coming back any more to dreamweaver, I fire up
> FireBug, change the layout in the fly, and then update the t5 template and
> try again, it works quite well with me, but this will not work well if the
> pages have to be maintained by a html designer, is this what you are doing
> too? thanks.
>
> Angelo
>
>
> Jonathan Barker wrote:
>>
>> HTML, CSS and a browser and focus on appearances. With T5, it's easier
>> just
>> to run your app and tweak on the fly.
>>
>>
>
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RE: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Jonathan Barker <jo...@gmail.com>.
Angelo,
I find that there will usually be a page or two that I want to play with to
get the look right for the whole app. I'm always using a Layout / Border
component, so I like to repeat the Border design on those pages and then
play with the CSS.
With the new project design, my templates will be under
src/main/resources/ca/itstrategic/client/app/pages and then CSS will be
under
src/main/webapp/css.
I like the organization, but referring to that path for WYSIWYG and
injecting it for runtime is a pain. And there doesn't seem to be anything
as easy as $content$ and $remove$.
I usually use t:type rather than the short form to keep some level of
viewability.
I don't usually have to pass off to a designer (Frankly, most of what I do
doesn't have to be pretty. It has to be fast and rock-solid.) I am now
doing more that needs to look good so I can see it being more of an issue in
the future. I also see it being an issue for adoption in larger shops where
there is a separation of roles.
Jonathan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Angelo Chen [mailto:angelochen960@yahoo.com.hk]
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:37 PM
> To: users@tapestry.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
>
>
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Initially I use dreamweaver to design the page, and make it a point to use
> regular tags like:
> my Link , this will make it easier for me to go back to dreamweaver for
> page
> update, but later I found out that I started to write <t:actionLink>my
> link</t:actionLink> and not coming back any more to dreamweaver, I fire up
> FireBug, change the layout in the fly, and then update the t5 template and
> try again, it works quite well with me, but this will not work well if the
> pages have to be maintained by a html designer, is this what you are doing
> too? thanks.
>
> Angelo
>
>
> Jonathan Barker wrote:
> >
> >
> > HTML, CSS and a browser and focus on appearances. With T5, it's easier
> > just
> > to run your app and tweak on the fly.
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-T5--Tapestry-
> evaluation-%2B-questions-tp16368331p16375682.html
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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RE: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Angelo Chen <an...@yahoo.com.hk>.
Hi Jonathan,
Initially I use dreamweaver to design the page, and make it a point to use
regular tags like:
my Link , this will make it easier for me to go back to dreamweaver for page
update, but later I found out that I started to write <t:actionLink>my
link</t:actionLink> and not coming back any more to dreamweaver, I fire up
FireBug, change the layout in the fly, and then update the t5 template and
try again, it works quite well with me, but this will not work well if the
pages have to be maintained by a html designer, is this what you are doing
too? thanks.
Angelo
Jonathan Barker wrote:
>
>
> HTML, CSS and a browser and focus on appearances. With T5, it's easier
> just
> to run your app and tweak on the fly.
>
>
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RE: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Jonathan Barker <jo...@gmail.com>.
Other posts have handled your specifics well.
Evaluate T5. I started active development on T4.0. I have since migrated a
few of the smaller applications from T4 -> T5 and I am doing all new work in
T5.
In the T4->T5 migrations, I found I was deleting lots of code and cleaning
up my templates.
Also, the hot reloading of changes is amazing. With the largest of my T4
applications it was getting painful to be doing restarts after simple fixes.
It was great having the time to get coffee, but productivity suffered. T5 is
just go-go-go.
The one place where T4 was better than T5 (I found) was WYSIWYG templates. I
think it was easier for shops where you had both designers and programmers.
There were times where I would take off my coding hat and just work with
HTML, CSS and a browser and focus on appearances. With T5, it's easier just
to run your app and tweak on the fly.
Jonathan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Blower [mailto:andy.blower@proquest.co.uk]
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:45 AM
> To: users@tapestry.apache.org
> Subject: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
>
>
> Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web framework
> we'll
> use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1 for the
> last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher maintenance
> than was first apparent. I have spent over two days reading about Tapestry
> history and general thoughts about past and future which has proved rather
> distracting. I'm really not sure whether I should evaluate 4.1 or 5
> because
> the documentation and intro/tutorial material isn't ready yet for 5 and
> I'm
> completely new to component oriented frameworks. If I evaluated 4.1, would
> that be valid for us still to go on to use 5? It's really hard to get a
> handle on the differences of two things you don't yet understand!
>
> I have three (more specific) questions:
>
> 1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in Tapestry
> (e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one considered
> 'best practice'?
>
> 2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
> interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
> success and visually change the appearance.
>
> 3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common functionality,
> which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
> templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
>
> With the only T5 examples being so trivial, it's really hard to get a
> bigger
> picture view at the moment, but I am very intrigued.
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-T5--Tapestry-
> evaluation-%2B-questions-tp16368331p16368331.html
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Angelo Chen <an...@yahoo.com.hk>.
Hi Andy,
Definately you should go Teaptesry 5, not 4.x. with 6 years experience you
should have no problem trying out the tutorials for a few days and see if
Tapestry 5 works for you, tutorials are trivial but you can always find a
use case to test Tapestry 5's features to see if it suits your needs.
Some answers to your specific questions:
1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in Tapestry
(e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one considered
'best practice'?
T5 has this layout pattern that just works as Tiles in Struts, I don't want
to compare the two but it just can do whatever Tiles can do.
2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
success and visually change the appearance.
This can be done with actionlink with zone/block, not sure it can be
attached to a checkbox, but I'd say it looks more logical for a link to
trigger an action instead of a checkbox.
3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common functionality,
which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
I'd say this is a good approach, I use it sometimes, but there are times
that I'd prefer to just use a POJO without any base class, as you code very
less in t5, a few more lines in code might save more time in tracing the
inheritance, well, just my idea, nothing to do with t5 which allows you to
do whatever you like, quite a fun development platform.
A.C.
Andy Blower wrote:
>
> Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web framework
> we'll use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1
> for the last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher
> maintenance than was first apparent. I have
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Re: [T5] Tapestry evaluation + questions
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 2:44 AM, Andy Blower <an...@proquest.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi there, I'm evaluating Tapestry (among others) for the web framework we'll
> use at my company for the next 5 years or so. We've used Struts 1 for the
> last 5-6 years and it's served us well, even if it was higher maintenance
> than was first apparent. I have spent over two days reading about Tapestry
> history and general thoughts about past and future which has proved rather
> distracting. I'm really not sure whether I should evaluate 4.1 or 5 because
> the documentation and intro/tutorial material isn't ready yet for 5 and I'm
> completely new to component oriented frameworks. If I evaluated 4.1, would
> that be valid for us still to go on to use 5? It's really hard to get a
> handle on the differences of two things you don't yet understand!
>
> I have three (more specific) questions:
>
> 1) What methods are known for implementing webpage templates in Tapestry
> (e.g. banner, nav, sidebar, content, footer) and is there one considered
> 'best practice'?
>
The layout pattern is the best way to approach this class of problems:
http://tapestry.apache.org/tapestry5/tapestry-core/guide/layout.html
These kinds of layout components can be very smart and highly
adaptable via templates and other techniques.
> 2) How easy is it to add custom AJAX interactions? I'm thinking of
> interactions like checking a checkbox to mark a search result, return
> success and visually change the appearance.
Very easy, because Tapestry's makes it very easy to create a URL that
triggers an event within a specific component. The component can
respond to the event via an event handler method,
and can easily communicate a response back to the client by returning
a stream, a JSON Object, or some rendered markup.
>
> 3) Is it practical to have base classes containing common functionality,
> which are extended by very terse page classes along with actual page
> templates or am I thinking about this wrong?
Yes, and Tapestry even has some support for JDK Generics for this
purpose. However, I would caution not to go overboard with base
classes, when injection is *so* easy; Common behavior can be factored
into IoC (Inversion of Control) services that can be injected directly
into component fields. A relatively flat (1 - 2) level inheritance
hiearchy, with common code in injectable services, is much easier to
maintain.
>
> With the only T5 examples being so trivial, it's really hard to get a bigger
> picture view at the moment, but I am very intrigued.
And I here you, but the community is stepping up; please check the T5
home page and wiki with links to prototype applications, tutorials and
other examples. And some very useful component libraries.
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--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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