Re: Is Struts Evolving (was ... Dying?)

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 8/25/05, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The subject line asks it all. Is it true?

The original subject line, no. The new line, yes. 

Externally, Struts is evolving from a monolithic package into a set of
subprojects, with their own release cycles. Internally, Struts is
evolving from a framework with a lockstep request gauntlet, to a
framework toolkit, that you can adapt and extend anyway you like.

Struts does move more slowly than some other projects. Always have,
probably always will. But, we tend to attract pragmatic committers
with busy careers, and the volunteer hours are few and far between. In
five years, we've yet to have anyone work on Struts fulltime. :(


> I hope we see a version 1.2.8 and a 1.3 soon, but I am
> sorry to see all the innovation going into Spring
> (YEAH!) and Shale (YAWN!), with no one really wanting
> to continue growing the classic framework.

A lot of the growth has been outside of the project. For example,
Hubert's very cool FormDef extension that manufactures DynaForms from
POJO's. Frank's AjaxTags. Michael's Struts Dialog extension.

* https://formdef.dev.java.net/
* http://struts.sourceforge.net/ajaxtags/index.html
* http://struts.sourceforge.net/strutsdialogs/

In the early days, we were careful to chronicle all of the Struts
happenings and extensions on the website, but after awhile, there just
got to be too much to report. We probably need a newsletter or
something to help keep everyone abreast of new developments, and to
help summarize the coolest tools.


> Is it viable to evolve Struts Classic into Shale, and
> mix into the Shale source support for good old Struts?
> I say it sounds like a good idea to me.... but I hope
> there are better ideas than mine, or we'd all be in
> trouble ;-)

Personally, I think the underlying problem is that  we need more
support on the business side of things, so that developers do not
become so dependant on the presentation framework. Most of us are
still developing "with" Struts, rather than "into" Struts.

In my own work, we're having great success using Spring and the
Commons Chain of Responsibility as the basis of a business layer
framework. Once Struts 1.3.x ships, I'd like to publish more "best
practices" applications that demonstration how to minimize
dependencies on the presentation layer frameworks. This way, when the
next big thing comes along (I doubt that JSF is the end of the line),
we won't have to go through this all over again.


> With that said, this is my opinion based on
> observation of the amazing industry progression in the
> MVC area. I hope the Struts committers aren't burnt
> out. I love Struts which is why I ask this tough
> question. I hope I get some good news and be told I am
> wrong :)

At the ASF, we expect committers to come and go, and so we make
everything a team effort. As committers drift away, and new volunteers
step up to take their place. For example, scope the very excellent
work our latest committer, Wendy Smoaks, has been doing for the web
site.

* http://svn.apache.org/builds/struts/maven/trunk/site-test/

We hope that by making Struts a collection of focussed subprojects,
instead of a monolithic distribution, we can avoid some of the
gridlock that afflicts mature projects. And, happily, this approach
also makes room for the new kids on the block, like Shale and Ti
<https://www.twdata.org/projects/struts-ti>.

 HTH, Ted.

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Re: Is Struts Evolving (was ... Dying?)

[Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>]

I don't think Struts could be considered to ever have been anything close to 
monolithic. Disorganized and not focused, sure. But, surely not monolithic. 
If Struts has become a mere set of subprojects, then it no longer is a 
framework but is merely a tag name upon which other ideas are being hung. I 
really think that the less optimistic views on this are more accurate. How 
does the old saw go? The pessimist thinks his glass is half empty. The 
optimist thinks his class is half full. The thinker thinks his glass is too 
big.

By the way, I missed that Wendy has been made a committer. I would like to 
give a belated congratulations and state that she more than deserves the 
"appointment". Good show on this one!

Main Entry: *mono·lith·ic* 
<javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?monoli03.wav=monolithic')>
Pronunciation: "mä-n&l-'i-thik
Function: *adjective*
*1 a* *:* of, relating to, or resembling a
monolith<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=monolith>
*: HUGE <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=huge>, 
MASSIVE <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=massive>* 
*b *(1) *:* formed from a single crystal <a *monolithic* silicon chip> (2) *
:* produced in or on a monolithic chip <a *monolithic* circuit>
*2 a* *:* cast as a single piece <a *monolithic* concrete wall> *b*
*:*formed or composed of material without joints or seams <a
*monolithic* floor covering> <a *monolithic* furnace lining> *c*
*:*consisting of or constituting a single unit
*3 a* *:* constituting a massive undifferentiated and often rigid whole <a *
monolithic* society> *b* *:* exhibiting or characterized by often rigidly 
fixed uniformity <*monolithic* party unity>
- *mono·lith·i·cal·ly* 
<javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?monoli04.wav=monolithically')> /
-thi-k(&-)lE/ *adverb*

On 8/26/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 8/25/05, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The subject line asks it all. Is it true?
> 
> The original subject line, no. The new line, yes.
> 
> Externally, Struts is evolving from a monolithic package into a set of
> subprojects, with their own release cycles. Internally, Struts is
> evolving from a framework with a lockstep request gauntlet, to a
> framework toolkit, that you can adapt and extend anyway you like.
> 
> Struts does move more slowly than some other projects. Always have,
> probably always will. But, we tend to attract pragmatic committers
> with busy careers, and the volunteer hours are few and far between. In
> five years, we've yet to have anyone work on Struts fulltime. :(
> 
> 
> > I hope we see a version 1.2.8 and a 1.3 soon, but I am
> > sorry to see all the innovation going into Spring
> > (YEAH!) and Shale (YAWN!), with no one really wanting
> > to continue growing the classic framework.
> 
> A lot of the growth has been outside of the project. For example,
> Hubert's very cool FormDef extension that manufactures DynaForms from
> POJO's. Frank's AjaxTags. Michael's Struts Dialog extension.
> 
> * https://formdef.dev.java.net/
> * http://struts.sourceforge.net/ajaxtags/index.html
> * http://struts.sourceforge.net/strutsdialogs/
> 
> In the early days, we were careful to chronicle all of the Struts
> happenings and extensions on the website, but after awhile, there just
> got to be too much to report. We probably need a newsletter or
> something to help keep everyone abreast of new developments, and to
> help summarize the coolest tools.
> 
> 
> > Is it viable to evolve Struts Classic into Shale, and
> > mix into the Shale source support for good old Struts?
> > I say it sounds like a good idea to me.... but I hope
> > there are better ideas than mine, or we'd all be in
> > trouble ;-)
> 
> Personally, I think the underlying problem is that we need more
> support on the business side of things, so that developers do not
> become so dependant on the presentation framework. Most of us are
> still developing "with" Struts, rather than "into" Struts.
> 
> In my own work, we're having great success using Spring and the
> Commons Chain of Responsibility as the basis of a business layer
> framework. Once Struts 1.3.x ships, I'd like to publish more "best
> practices" applications that demonstration how to minimize
> dependencies on the presentation layer frameworks. This way, when the
> next big thing comes along (I doubt that JSF is the end of the line),
> we won't have to go through this all over again.
> 
> 
> > With that said, this is my opinion based on
> > observation of the amazing industry progression in the
> > MVC area. I hope the Struts committers aren't burnt
> > out. I love Struts which is why I ask this tough
> > question. I hope I get some good news and be told I am
> > wrong :)
> 
> At the ASF, we expect committers to come and go, and so we make
> everything a team effort. As committers drift away, and new volunteers
> step up to take their place. For example, scope the very excellent
> work our latest committer, Wendy Smoaks, has been doing for the web
> site.
> 
> * http://svn.apache.org/builds/struts/maven/trunk/site-test/
> 
> We hope that by making Struts a collection of focussed subprojects,
> instead of a monolithic distribution, we can avoid some of the
> gridlock that afflicts mature projects. And, happily, this approach
> also makes room for the new kids on the block, like Shale and Ti
> <https://www.twdata.org/projects/struts-ti>.
> 
> HTH, Ted.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~