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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> on 2019/05/13 17:20:37 UTC
[DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Hi,
As part of taking on release managing the next release, I said I'd
like to try and tie up the various things people have suggested around
quarterly / time-based releases into one plan. I admit to having some
reluctance volunteering for that role while there were still
discussions around how to decide what goes in it, whether it was 11.1
or 12, and what branch to build it off! :-)
So, I've had a re-read of various threads we've had about this in the
past, and tried to come up with something that combines things that
have been suggested, what feels deliverable, reservations people had,
and where NetCAT fits in to all this.
Full version is here. It's a draft! (It did have draft in the title
until I got annoyed with Confluence's approach to linking).
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Release+Schedule
Some key things.
* Fixed quarterly releases based off master.
* Fixed merge windows and feature freeze dates.
* Annual LTS releases that go through full NetCAT process and remain
downloadable for the year. Minimal backporting of critical bugs - you
want features, jump on the fast train and help test them.
* LTS has shorter merge window to allow time for NetCAT, and should
have less new features anyway!
* Next releases are then NB 11.1 (Jul), NB 11.2 (Oct), NB 11.3 (Jan
2020), NB 12.0 LTS (Apr 2020) - perhaps counter-intuitively major
version increases when least new features.
* NB 11.0 remains available until next April.
* All commits to master go in the next release and release branch
merges everything - so no feature merges to master outside of the
merge window, and all merges during those periods take into account
the bug priority guidelines.
* Feature freeze for NB 11.1 would be ~15th June. (if everyone's on
board with this be good to publicise that fact soon!)
Please feel free to take it apart .. gently! ;-) Suggestions that
this is all about making my job easier over the next couple of months
are .. entirely correct.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
> They want the latest and great release that "works", and don't care about a once a year LTS release no matter how stable it is.
I agree with this angle. I don't actually remember / know why an LTS
was picked... but the NetCAT angle seems practical in a way.
If users want to be on the bleeding edge they can always pick another
'release channel' and NetBeans could push beta/dev/canary updates
there.
Users stick on a fixed version for various reasons, not only because
they need LTS assurances. As soon as something breaks or needs too
much work for a new release some users will just stick with the last
known version where their project worked.
What would help is NetBeans being a rolling release. Upgrading from
one release to another should be easier.
--emi
On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 6:54 PM Qingtian Wang
<qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Neil. I think the numbered list you give here sums up the opposing forces for the release plan rather well.
>
> And yes, my comments are for me only; however, I know for a fact my observation on LTS is not only for me - it's out of tens of clients/corporations where people (myself included) are more interested in using IDEs professionally (read make a living/money). They want the latest and great release that "works", and don't care about a once a year LTS release no matter how stable it is. To be honest, those users are in a sense selfish and contribute back rarely (myself included); but I am afraid they are the silent majority: You see the "significant number of people" that complains on needing frequent updates because they are actually "better citizens" of the community that take the time to voice their opinions - most other people wouldn't even bother.
>
> BTW, I see this release schedule on the web page:
>
> February 15th - 30th NB <version>.3 released.
>
> So it looks like 11.3 release is imminent, so congrats and many thanks! But I won't be holding my breath on a Feb 30 release even this is a leap year.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> On 2020/02/27 19:18:09, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:33, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> > > LTS releases have little meaning (again for me)
> >
> > With big emphasis on "again for you"! ;-)
> >
> > Laszlo hit the nail on the head with the comment about LTS and NetCAT
> > going hand in hand. For perspective, I wrote the initial draft
> > release schedule (which has changed a bit since) to meet a few
> > requirements that were coming out from discussions among the community
> > here -
> >
> > 1. A general consensus that we wanted a faster release schedule -
> > probably quarterly - certainly quicker than that might be more
> > difficult for users and release managers!
> > 2. A significant number of people (eg. corporate / education) who
> > voiced concerns on needing to update too often.
> > 3. A general consensus that NetCAT was an incredibly valuable part of
> > NetBeans that we wanted to keep going at Apache.
> > 4. A recognition that running NetCAT for every quarterly release is
> > impractical and will lead to volunteer burnout.
> >
> > The release schedule was written to try and meet all those concerns -
> > I didn't make much up, I just picked the various things people had
> > said and tried to combine as much as possible into something coherent.
> > If we can only do NetCAT once a year, then an LTS makes some sense too
> > as a reason, and addresses #2. And having 9 months of the year focused
> > on new features and 3 months on ensuring they're perfect seems a good
> > balance to me personally.
> >
> > The release schedule is not set in stone. It's already been tweaked
> > in various ways. And it can and should adapt again. It's all a big,
> > ever changing balancing act! :-)
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com>.
Thanks Neil. I think the numbered list you give here sums up the opposing forces for the release plan rather well.
And yes, my comments are for me only; however, I know for a fact my observation on LTS is not only for me - it's out of tens of clients/corporations where people (myself included) are more interested in using IDEs professionally (read make a living/money). They want the latest and great release that "works", and don't care about a once a year LTS release no matter how stable it is. To be honest, those users are in a sense selfish and contribute back rarely (myself included); but I am afraid they are the silent majority: You see the "significant number of people" that complains on needing frequent updates because they are actually "better citizens" of the community that take the time to voice their opinions - most other people wouldn't even bother.
BTW, I see this release schedule on the web page:
February 15th - 30th NB <version>.3 released.
So it looks like 11.3 release is imminent, so congrats and many thanks! But I won't be holding my breath on a Feb 30 release even this is a leap year.
Cheers!
On 2020/02/27 19:18:09, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:33, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> > LTS releases have little meaning (again for me)
>
> With big emphasis on "again for you"! ;-)
>
> Laszlo hit the nail on the head with the comment about LTS and NetCAT
> going hand in hand. For perspective, I wrote the initial draft
> release schedule (which has changed a bit since) to meet a few
> requirements that were coming out from discussions among the community
> here -
>
> 1. A general consensus that we wanted a faster release schedule -
> probably quarterly - certainly quicker than that might be more
> difficult for users and release managers!
> 2. A significant number of people (eg. corporate / education) who
> voiced concerns on needing to update too often.
> 3. A general consensus that NetCAT was an incredibly valuable part of
> NetBeans that we wanted to keep going at Apache.
> 4. A recognition that running NetCAT for every quarterly release is
> impractical and will lead to volunteer burnout.
>
> The release schedule was written to try and meet all those concerns -
> I didn't make much up, I just picked the various things people had
> said and tried to combine as much as possible into something coherent.
> If we can only do NetCAT once a year, then an LTS makes some sense too
> as a reason, and addresses #2. And having 9 months of the year focused
> on new features and 3 months on ensuring they're perfect seems a good
> balance to me personally.
>
> The release schedule is not set in stone. It's already been tweaked
> in various ways. And it can and should adapt again. It's all a big,
> ever changing balancing act! :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:33, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> LTS releases have little meaning (again for me)
With big emphasis on "again for you"! ;-)
Laszlo hit the nail on the head with the comment about LTS and NetCAT
going hand in hand. For perspective, I wrote the initial draft
release schedule (which has changed a bit since) to meet a few
requirements that were coming out from discussions among the community
here -
1. A general consensus that we wanted a faster release schedule -
probably quarterly - certainly quicker than that might be more
difficult for users and release managers!
2. A significant number of people (eg. corporate / education) who
voiced concerns on needing to update too often.
3. A general consensus that NetCAT was an incredibly valuable part of
NetBeans that we wanted to keep going at Apache.
4. A recognition that running NetCAT for every quarterly release is
impractical and will lead to volunteer burnout.
The release schedule was written to try and meet all those concerns -
I didn't make much up, I just picked the various things people had
said and tried to combine as much as possible into something coherent.
If we can only do NetCAT once a year, then an LTS makes some sense too
as a reason, and addresses #2. And having 9 months of the year focused
on new features and 3 months on ensuring they're perfect seems a good
balance to me personally.
The release schedule is not set in stone. It's already been tweaked
in various ways. And it can and should adapt again. It's all a big,
ever changing balancing act! :-)
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com>.
I guess the point of discussion here is "how fast" we want to go when it comes to releases. My two cents as an end user is: Daily build is too fast (for me, because too many things might be broken); LTS releases have little meaning (again for me) if that means any slow down of the progress.
As a contractor I worked for tens of clients/companies. My observation is that unlike OS or JDK which is often tied to entire organizations, IDEs are personal. The company would always talk about LTS release for JDK/OS, but I have not heard any company or developer talk about LTS on IDEs - be it Eclipse, InjelliJ, NetBeans... People move on to the next release as soon as they can, be that a LTS or not.
On 2020/02/27 17:16:35, Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well,
>
> 1. I think we are having it right now, thanks to Neil and Eric, so far
> quarterly releases seems to be just fine, especially support wise. We
> still need to recommend a lot of users to upgrade from NetBeans 10 or
> 11.1 to 11 or 11.2 (or this time 11.3). Unless we are able to deliver
> something like a rolling release (like a release which is connect to a
> regularly refreshed update center), more releases would mean more
> confusion to the users. Though even with a rolling release, it can't
> really be called as a release as we have work to do beside of just
> building the code. On the other hand we have such a builds, though not
> for wide audience, but netbeans-dev Snap package is refreshed on every
> Thursday (at least), though it has 10-15 people using that one including
> myself.
>
> 2. and 3. LTS and NetCat they are hand-in-hand together. Broader
> testcase based QA is a real asset, if Apache NetBeans were a company
> product and I'd be a CTO there, I'd definitely would invest more on that
> side. LTS have a value especially for corporate users/education, who are
> focused on work or study, and can be disrupted with every little changes
> we make.
>
> So if you would like to move faster and be more up to date on the IDE,
> daily builds are there or if you are lucky to run Linux just use the
> netbeans-dev Snap package for the convenience.
>
> On 2/27/20 8:08 AM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 15:58, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> >> 1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
> > +1
> >
> >> 2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
> > -1
> >
> >> 3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
> > -1, but +1 to the second bit - which is exactly why you should get
> > involved in NetCAT! ;-)
> >
> > Apologies for any nerve touching!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>.
Well,
1. I think we are having it right now, thanks to Neil and Eric, so far
quarterly releases seems to be just fine, especially support wise. We
still need to recommend a lot of users to upgrade from NetBeans 10 or
11.1 to 11 or 11.2 (or this time 11.3). Unless we are able to deliver
something like a rolling release (like a release which is connect to a
regularly refreshed update center), more releases would mean more
confusion to the users. Though even with a rolling release, it can't
really be called as a release as we have work to do beside of just
building the code. On the other hand we have such a builds, though not
for wide audience, but netbeans-dev Snap package is refreshed on every
Thursday (at least), though it has 10-15 people using that one including
myself.
2. and 3. LTS and NetCat they are hand-in-hand together. Broader
testcase based QA is a real asset, if Apache NetBeans were a company
product and I'd be a CTO there, I'd definitely would invest more on that
side. LTS have a value especially for corporate users/education, who are
focused on work or study, and can be disrupted with every little changes
we make.
So if you would like to move faster and be more up to date on the IDE,
daily builds are there or if you are lucky to run Linux just use the
netbeans-dev Snap package for the convenience.
On 2/27/20 8:08 AM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 15:58, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
>> 1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
> +1
>
>> 2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
> -1
>
>> 3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
> -1, but +1 to the second bit - which is exactly why you should get
> involved in NetCAT! ;-)
>
> Apologies for any nerve touching!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
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> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 15:58, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> 1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
+1
> 2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
-1
> 3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
-1, but +1 to the second bit - which is exactly why you should get
involved in NetCAT! ;-)
Apologies for any nerve touching!
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com>.
This may touch some nerves, but just a quick comment from long time and grateful NetBeans user:
1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
On 2019/05/13 17:20:37, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As part of taking on release managing the next release, I said I'd
> like to try and tie up the various things people have suggested around
> quarterly / time-based releases into one plan. I admit to having some
> reluctance volunteering for that role while there were still
> discussions around how to decide what goes in it, whether it was 11.1
> or 12, and what branch to build it off! :-)
>
> So, I've had a re-read of various threads we've had about this in the
> past, and tried to come up with something that combines things that
> have been suggested, what feels deliverable, reservations people had,
> and where NetCAT fits in to all this.
>
> Full version is here. It's a draft! (It did have draft in the title
> until I got annoyed with Confluence's approach to linking).
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Release+Schedule
>
> Some key things.
>
> * Fixed quarterly releases based off master.
> * Fixed merge windows and feature freeze dates.
> * Annual LTS releases that go through full NetCAT process and remain
> downloadable for the year. Minimal backporting of critical bugs - you
> want features, jump on the fast train and help test them.
> * LTS has shorter merge window to allow time for NetCAT, and should
> have less new features anyway!
> * Next releases are then NB 11.1 (Jul), NB 11.2 (Oct), NB 11.3 (Jan
> 2020), NB 12.0 LTS (Apr 2020) - perhaps counter-intuitively major
> version increases when least new features.
> * NB 11.0 remains available until next April.
> * All commits to master go in the next release and release branch
> merges everything - so no feature merges to master outside of the
> merge window, and all merges during those periods take into account
> the bug priority guidelines.
> * Feature freeze for NB 11.1 would be ~15th June. (if everyone's on
> board with this be good to publicise that fact soon!)
>
> Please feel free to take it apart .. gently! ;-) Suggestions that
> this is all about making my job easier over the next couple of months
> are .. entirely correct.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 19:51, Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It might be my bad, and a long night night work on DNS troubles, but it
> took me a while to get around the first column of the table. At the I
> could figure it out, I'd just order it by the second column as ho we see
> the dates in a calendar year from January to December, I might replace
> version prefixes 11. and 12. 13. with something as <version> in order
> not to get the feeling that we are developing two versions in parallel,
> one LTS and one non-lts (I'm sorry that was how I read the table first,
> then I looked into the details.)
Thanks! Definitely not your bad! :-) Sorry for the delayed response
on this comment. I've updated the table a bit, not exactly as you
suggested but close I think. Does it make more sense now?
i do think the dates should go from now to April, to emphasise that
the releases build towards the next LTS? Or just April to April?
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>.
It might be my bad, and a long night night work on DNS troubles, but it
took me a while to get around the first column of the table. At the I
could figure it out, I'd just order it by the second column as ho we see
the dates in a calendar year from January to December, I might replace
version prefixes 11. and 12. 13. with something as <version> in order
not to get the feeling that we are developing two versions in parallel,
one LTS and one non-lts (I'm sorry that was how I read the table first,
then I looked into the details.)
Otherwise, good job, I hope we can make it work! Thank you!
On 5/13/19 10:20 AM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As part of taking on release managing the next release, I said I'd
> like to try and tie up the various things people have suggested around
> quarterly / time-based releases into one plan. I admit to having some
> reluctance volunteering for that role while there were still
> discussions around how to decide what goes in it, whether it was 11.1
> or 12, and what branch to build it off! :-)
>
> So, I've had a re-read of various threads we've had about this in the
> past, and tried to come up with something that combines things that
> have been suggested, what feels deliverable, reservations people had,
> and where NetCAT fits in to all this.
>
> Full version is here. It's a draft! (It did have draft in the title
> until I got annoyed with Confluence's approach to linking).
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Release+Schedule
>
> Some key things.
>
> * Fixed quarterly releases based off master.
> * Fixed merge windows and feature freeze dates.
> * Annual LTS releases that go through full NetCAT process and remain
> downloadable for the year. Minimal backporting of critical bugs - you
> want features, jump on the fast train and help test them.
> * LTS has shorter merge window to allow time for NetCAT, and should
> have less new features anyway!
> * Next releases are then NB 11.1 (Jul), NB 11.2 (Oct), NB 11.3 (Jan
> 2020), NB 12.0 LTS (Apr 2020) - perhaps counter-intuitively major
> version increases when least new features.
> * NB 11.0 remains available until next April.
> * All commits to master go in the next release and release branch
> merges everything - so no feature merges to master outside of the
> merge window, and all merges during those periods take into account
> the bug priority guidelines.
> * Feature freeze for NB 11.1 would be ~15th June. (if everyone's on
> board with this be good to publicise that fact soon!)
>
> Please feel free to take it apart .. gently! ;-) Suggestions that
> this is all about making my job easier over the next couple of months
> are .. entirely correct.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:11, Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.invalid> wrote:
> NetCAT test specs should be reviewed *between releases* to have any hope
> of completing the testing in a timely manner. What is the overall plan
> for NetCAT? Does it need to change and adapt now that we are at Apache?
> Does Synergy work the way we want it to? Is there a better way to test?
i took the NetCAT parts of the LTS schedule from a suggestion put
forward on the initial quarterly release thread, which had a week for
test specs. That was based on doing NetCAT on each quarterly release
though, which to me seems impractical. And from my recollection a
week is a little short?!
So if it's brought forward, how far? Still post-freeze? Or tied to
PR's that affect them?
I'm guessing I personally see the non-LTS releases also about testing
in the wild to a degree? And defining what NetCAT-lite actually means
in practice.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>.
On 5/13/19 12:20 PM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> * Annual LTS releases that go through full NetCAT process
> * LTS has shorter merge window to allow time for NetCAT
NetCAT test specs should be reviewed *between releases* to have any hope
of completing the testing in a timely manner. What is the overall plan
for NetCAT? Does it need to change and adapt now that we are at Apache?
Does Synergy work the way we want it to? Is there a better way to test?
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 17 May 2019, 19:02 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> We’re a friendly community and I imagine happy to unwind decisions if
> needed.
>
Absolutely! Only a few things feel difficult to unwind, because they'll be
public, like if at 11.1 release we advertise 11.0 as the first LTS. But
time between now and then to reconsider.
> I recommend you send a mail with LAZY CONSENSUS in the subject, outline the
> release plan, specify 72 hours for objections, or otherwise you’ll then go
> ahead with it.
>
Ah, sounds much better, will do. Didn't want to consider this thread lazy
consensus.
Thanks and best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>.
We’re a friendly community and I imagine happy to unwind decisions if
needed.
I recommend you send a mail with LAZY CONSENSUS in the subject, outline the
release plan, specify 72 hours for objections, or otherwise you’ll then go
ahead with it. Everyone who cares should be aware of your plan at this
point anyway.
Gj
On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 18:35, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 17:14, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'd recommend using lazy consensus rather than voting. I think it's great
> > and you should go ahead.
>
> I'm happy with that too if you prefer. Shall we vote on it? :-)
>
> So, let's turn this into a prod to raise concerns in the next week
> instead?!
>
> Only reason I suggested vote is that it maybe gets more people to buy
> in or raise a -1 than a discussion thread? I've curated things
> various people have said in the past into what feels like a viable
> plan. But I'm wary of setting a precedent in how I think we should do
> 11.1 that causes unforeseen issues down the line that are difficult to
> unwind.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 17:14, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I'd recommend using lazy consensus rather than voting. I think it's great
> and you should go ahead.
I'm happy with that too if you prefer. Shall we vote on it? :-)
So, let's turn this into a prod to raise concerns in the next week instead?!
Only reason I suggested vote is that it maybe gets more people to buy
in or raise a -1 than a discussion thread? I've curated things
various people have said in the past into what feels like a viable
plan. But I'm wary of setting a precedent in how I think we should do
11.1 that causes unforeseen issues down the line that are difficult to
unwind.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>.
I'd recommend using lazy consensus rather than voting. I think it's great
and you should go ahead.
Gj
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 6:12 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Quick bump, just to see if there are any further thoughts on this?
>
> If there aren't objections I'd really like to run a vote thread on
> this next week - not the whole text - lots still to discuss - just key
> points around release dates, LTS, version numbering and feature/master
> freeze. Basically anything that affects how we do the next release
> and whether we archive 11.0 or not.
>
> If we are freezing master for a month in mid-June, it would also be
> good to decide and advertise that by end of next week or so?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:20 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 19:55, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I deeply apologize for not responding, I've missed the e-mail.
>
> No problem!
>
> > Hm, not sure - I did suggest this? It is true this is one way to develop,
> > and a similar way was used by NetBeans at some points, but I don't recall
> > suggesting this?
>
> There is this email from the original thread on quarterly releases,
> which I may be in danger of misinterpreting?! I went back through
> what everyone had said in writing that page, but it's obviously got my
> spin on it.
>
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a97e431227e971ee3f3b7e9583cb9abc7c2baf32739bb37e772ed131@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
I stand corrected, yes, I suggested this. Let's try and see.
Thanks,
Jan
>
> > Anyway, we can try and see how it will work. I guess I'd just like to
> have
> > a branch into which I could be merging stuff, like port-11-1-dev, or
> alike.
>
> If you feel that's required, and that feature branches won't work,
> then I think we should go with what works for you!
>
> One thing i'd like is not to have to cherry pick anything from it to
> master for the release, and probably we should merge and delete post
> release? Does that work?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 19:55, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I deeply apologize for not responding, I've missed the e-mail.
No problem!
> Hm, not sure - I did suggest this? It is true this is one way to develop,
> and a similar way was used by NetBeans at some points, but I don't recall
> suggesting this?
There is this email from the original thread on quarterly releases,
which I may be in danger of misinterpreting?! I went back through
what everyone had said in writing that page, but it's obviously got my
spin on it.
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a97e431227e971ee3f3b7e9583cb9abc7c2baf32739bb37e772ed131@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
> Anyway, we can try and see how it will work. I guess I'd just like to have
> a branch into which I could be merging stuff, like port-11-1-dev, or alike.
If you feel that's required, and that feature branches won't work,
then I think we should go with what works for you!
One thing i'd like is not to have to cherry pick anything from it to
master for the release, and probably we should merge and delete post
release? Does that work?
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
Hi Neil,
I deeply apologize for not responding, I've missed the e-mail.
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:49 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 20:35, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'd like to ask: is there a plan for a "next" branch to which one could
> > merge stuff for the next release while the master is closed (and which
> > would be automatically merged into master when the merge window would
> > open)? As master is going to be closed for extensive periods of time, it
> > feels there should be a place where work could happen (rather than
> managing
> > private branches that are effectively done, but cannot be pushed/merged
> > anywhere, as the master is closed).
>
> Well, one question would be, what did you have in mind when you
> originally suggested it?! :-)
>
Hm, not sure - I did suggest this? It is true this is one way to develop,
and a similar way was used by NetBeans at some points, but I don't recall
suggesting this?
Anyway, we can try and see how it will work. I guess I'd just like to have
a branch into which I could be merging stuff, like port-11-1-dev, or alike.
Jan
>
> I wondered about this myself, but left it out for now. How useful /
> necessary does it feel in practice? What are the downsides? eg. is
> it simplifying the release merging process just to end up complicating
> it elsewhere? What work cannot happen in the context of pull
> requests? Could we set up various feature branches on a case by case
> basis where there's a need to merge interdependent private branches
> together to work on?
>
> I guess my thought was not closing master completely for all of that
> time - just concentrating on stabilisation merging only. We could
> rethink it completely? Or still do a release branch when we're closer
> to the release date? Just trying to get cherry-picking out of the
> process as much as feasible, and make sure release and master fixes
> tie up.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 20:35, Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to ask: is there a plan for a "next" branch to which one could
> merge stuff for the next release while the master is closed (and which
> would be automatically merged into master when the merge window would
> open)? As master is going to be closed for extensive periods of time, it
> feels there should be a place where work could happen (rather than managing
> private branches that are effectively done, but cannot be pushed/merged
> anywhere, as the master is closed).
Well, one question would be, what did you have in mind when you
originally suggested it?! :-)
I wondered about this myself, but left it out for now. How useful /
necessary does it feel in practice? What are the downsides? eg. is
it simplifying the release merging process just to end up complicating
it elsewhere? What work cannot happen in the context of pull
requests? Could we set up various feature branches on a case by case
basis where there's a need to merge interdependent private branches
together to work on?
I guess my thought was not closing master completely for all of that
time - just concentrating on stabilisation merging only. We could
rethink it completely? Or still do a release branch when we're closer
to the release date? Just trying to get cherry-picking out of the
process as much as feasible, and make sure release and master fixes
tie up.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
Hi Neil,
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 6:12 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Quick bump, just to see if there are any further thoughts on this?
>
> If there aren't objections I'd really like to run a vote thread on
> this next week - not the whole text - lots still to discuss - just key
> points around release dates, LTS, version numbering and feature/master
> freeze. Basically anything that affects how we do the next release
>
I'd like to ask: is there a plan for a "next" branch to which one could
merge stuff for the next release while the master is closed (and which
would be automatically merged into master when the merge window would
open)? As master is going to be closed for extensive periods of time, it
feels there should be a place where work could happen (rather than managing
private branches that are effectively done, but cannot be pushed/merged
anywhere, as the master is closed).
Thanks,
Jan
> and whether we archive 11.0 or not.
>
> If we are freezing master for a month in mid-June, it would also be
> good to decide and advertise that by end of next week or so?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
Hi,
Quick bump, just to see if there are any further thoughts on this?
If there aren't objections I'd really like to run a vote thread on
this next week - not the whole text - lots still to discuss - just key
points around release dates, LTS, version numbering and feature/master
freeze. Basically anything that affects how we do the next release
and whether we archive 11.0 or not.
If we are freezing master for a month in mid-June, it would also be
good to decide and advertise that by end of next week or so?
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>.
NetCAT-as-a-Service.
Gh
On Wed, 15 May 2019 at 17:01, Eric Barboni <sk...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Neil, Hi Jiri,
>
> The branding wiki was created but not reviewed. It's based on
> wiki.netbeans checklist I found, but not complete I guess.(handle with
> care).
>
> I like the idea of the "Lite NetCAT" or NetCAT on demand with focus to
> specifc feature.
>
> Regards
> Eric
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> Envoyé : mardi 14 mai 2019 14:32
> À : dev <de...@netbeans.apache.org>
> Objet : Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
>
> On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 13:04, Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com>
> wrote:
> > thanks a lot for taking the time and putting this plan together!
>
> Thanks!
>
> > I like the LTS idea of annual feature releases in April with
> > full-fledged NetCAT programs. I assume that only these LTS releases
> > would have Update Centers, wouldn't they?
>
> That's an interesting question! My inclination would be they should still
> have UCs. I wonder how many RCP people are using the Ant scripts and the
> ability to set up autoupdate.catalog.url to download the harness for
> example? Or is that just me now?! We would need to be careful of all
> other uses of UCs, and may still want the ability to push critical /
> security-related updates to non-LTS?
>
> Incidentally, there is already a page for what is currently done in the
> release branch but not in master at
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Branding
> Need to check if it's complete, and what given potential splash PR still
> would need looking at in order to release from master if that was desirable.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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RE: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Eric Barboni <sk...@apache.org>.
Hi Neil, Hi Jiri,
The branding wiki was created but not reviewed. It's based on wiki.netbeans checklist I found, but not complete I guess.(handle with care).
I like the idea of the "Lite NetCAT" or NetCAT on demand with focus to specifc feature.
Regards
Eric
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
Envoyé : mardi 14 mai 2019 14:32
À : dev <de...@netbeans.apache.org>
Objet : Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 13:04, Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com> wrote:
> thanks a lot for taking the time and putting this plan together!
Thanks!
> I like the LTS idea of annual feature releases in April with
> full-fledged NetCAT programs. I assume that only these LTS releases
> would have Update Centers, wouldn't they?
That's an interesting question! My inclination would be they should still have UCs. I wonder how many RCP people are using the Ant scripts and the ability to set up autoupdate.catalog.url to download the harness for example? Or is that just me now?! We would need to be careful of all other uses of UCs, and may still want the ability to push critical / security-related updates to non-LTS?
Incidentally, there is already a page for what is currently done in the release branch but not in master at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Branding
Need to check if it's complete, and what given potential splash PR still would need looking at in order to release from master if that was desirable.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 13:04, Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com> wrote:
> thanks a lot for taking the time and putting this plan together!
Thanks!
> I like the LTS idea of annual feature releases in April with
> full-fledged NetCAT programs. I assume that only these LTS releases
> would have Update Centers, wouldn't they?
That's an interesting question! My inclination would be they should
still have UCs. I wonder how many RCP people are using the Ant
scripts and the ability to set up autoupdate.catalog.url to download
the harness for example? Or is that just me now?! We would need to
be careful of all other uses of UCs, and may still want the ability to
push critical / security-related updates to non-LTS?
Incidentally, there is already a page for what is currently done in
the release branch but not in master at
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Branding
Need to check if it's complete, and what given potential splash PR
still would need looking at in order to release from master if that
was desirable.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com>.
Hi Neil,
thanks a lot for taking the time and putting this plan together!
I like the LTS idea of annual feature releases in April with
full-fledged NetCAT programs. I assume that only these LTS releases
would have Update Centers, wouldn't they? With this approach we could
even aim to release the three minor dot releases from master and only
for the LTS one we would create a branch. This branch would be used for
branding and fixing release blockers discovered by NetCAT prior GA and
back-porting critical fixes distributed via Update Center after GA.
I also second having the fixed Feature Freeze dates which would lock
master for anything else than bug fixes until the actual release is out.
If some functionality area would be enhanced, we would "wake up"
corresponding NetCAT Tribe to test the new feature(s) and update their
test specifications (Lite NetCAT). If no new features are added, NetCAT
would be skipped.
Does it make sense?
My two cents,
-Jirka
Dne 13. 05. 19 v 19:20 Neil C Smith napsal(a):
[snip]
> * Fixed quarterly releases based off master.
> * Fixed merge windows and feature freeze dates.
> * Annual LTS releases that go through full NetCAT process and remain
> downloadable for the year. Minimal backporting of critical bugs - you
> want features, jump on the fast train and help test them.
> * LTS has shorter merge window to allow time for NetCAT, and should
> have less new features anyway!
> * Next releases are then NB 11.1 (Jul), NB 11.2 (Oct), NB 11.3 (Jan
> 2020), NB 12.0 LTS (Apr 2020) - perhaps counter-intuitively major
> version increases when least new features.
> * NB 11.0 remains available until next April.
> * All commits to master go in the next release and release branch
> merges everything - so no feature merges to master outside of the
> merge window, and all merges during those periods take into account
> the bug priority guidelines.
> * Feature freeze for NB 11.1 would be ~15th June. (if everyone's on
> board with this be good to publicise that fact soon!)
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