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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com> on 2008/08/24 13:59:41 UTC
Add voting guide to incubator docs?
There is always a lot of confusion on whose votes are binding in our
podlings. The PPMC guide has a small, easy to overlook sentence which
states the obviously not so obvious: "And note that binding votes are
those cast by Incubator PMC members."
Any objections to crafting such a document, and who would want to take
the lead? As this would be a guide, this would be CTR.
IMO a structure would be something like this:
Voting
- when to vote
- how to vote
- whose vote is binding
- when to nofify the Incubator PMC
Martijn
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Re: Add voting guide to incubator docs?
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 18:14 +0100, Aidan Skinner wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you have any ideas on how to make sure that people read and understand
> > the documentation, either the existing or proposed update?
>
> I suspect it's an ordering issue (and conflation of the concept of PMC
> and PPMC, rather than PMC and IPMC). The section on who's vote is
> binding is buried relatively deeply in the last sentance of the 3rd
> paragraph, immediately before the information you were probably
> scanning the page for in the first place if you'd read the page before
> and wanted a refresher.
>
> I think a seperate "How to vote" that both the release page and the
> PPMC page can reference would help clarify things. Might not help with
> people who just don't read it in the first place, or read it and then
> forget how it's suppoused to work but..
And by the sounds of it, it would enable those of us that often answer
"so what next?" questions to answer with a URL rather than a long and
tedious explanation. Thus, I'd appreciate it.
Upayavira
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Re: Add voting guide to incubator docs?
Posted by Aidan Skinner <ai...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> Do you have any ideas on how to make sure that people read and understand
> the documentation, either the existing or proposed update?
I suspect it's an ordering issue (and conflation of the concept of PMC
and PPMC, rather than PMC and IPMC). The section on who's vote is
binding is buried relatively deeply in the last sentance of the 3rd
paragraph, immediately before the information you were probably
scanning the page for in the first place if you'd read the page before
and wanted a refresher.
I think a seperate "How to vote" that both the release page and the
PPMC page can reference would help clarify things. Might not help with
people who just don't read it in the first place, or read it and then
forget how it's suppoused to work but..
- Aidan
--
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http://cwiki.apache.org/qpid
"Nine-tenths of wisdom consists in being wise in time." - Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Add voting guide to incubator docs?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Martijn,
On Aug 24, 2008, at 4:59 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> There is always a lot of confusion on whose votes are binding in our
> podlings. The PPMC guide has a small, easy to overlook sentence which
> states the obviously not so obvious: "And note that binding votes are
> those cast by Incubator PMC members."
I believe that the confusion is among people who have not actually
read the guide in detail, and think they know the process, or think
they have a better idea of how to run the process.
>
>
> Any objections to crafting such a document, and who would want to take
> the lead? As this would be a guide, this would be CTR.
While I have no objection to your crafting such a document, I suspect
that documentation isn't the issue. It's failure to read the
documentation or failure to ask questions where the existing
documentation isn't clear.
Do you have any ideas on how to make sure that people read and
understand the documentation, either the existing or proposed update?
Craig
>
>
> IMO a structure would be something like this:
>
> Voting
> - when to vote
> - how to vote
> - whose vote is binding
> - when to nofify the Incubator PMC
>
> Martijn
>
>
> --
> Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com
> Apache Wicket 1.3.4 is released
> Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Add voting guide to incubator docs?
Posted by Rajith Attapattu <ra...@gmail.com>.
Sounds much better.
The key thing here is to highlight the responsibilities of the PPMC, the
mentors and the IPMC and whose votes binding (or not).
This will ensure that everybody understands what they are supposed to do.
PPMC only recommends committers and the voting in the private list is to
show consensus within the podling.
Mentors are also responsible for voting in the private list as its *only*
their votes that really counts.
IPMC will only step in if
a) It has any objections about the suitability of the committer.
b) If there are fewer than 3 mentor votes in the vote thread.
Otherwise it is assumed that the IPMC has ratified the decision via silent
approval.
Regards,
Rajith
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com>wrote:
> While the subject document is being prepared, I've update the
> guides/ppmc.html to add some text with the rationale of the PPMC/PMC voting
> process.
>
> The small, easy to overlook, sentence is now two paragraphs.
>
> <guide>
> Voting a new committer is one of the most important functions of any PMC,
> and the Incubator is no different. Only votes of Incubator PMC members are
> binding (counted) when considering a new committer. But the members of the
> PPMC, with direct oversight over the podling, are best able to judge the
> qualifications and suitability of a proposed new committer. Therefore, the
> process for voting a new committer into an Incubator podling is a bit more
> complex than voting a new committer into a Top Level Project.
>
> The role of the PPMC in this process is recommendation to the Incubator PMC
> that one of the contributors to the podling is worthy of committership. The
> recommendation should reflect consensus of the PPMC. When it comes to
> voting, an affirmative vote of at least three Incubator PMC members is
> needed. Since the PPMC often contains only three Incubator PMC members (the
> podling's Mentors), the challenge for a PPMC to vote a new committer is to
> obtain three or more Incubator PMC members' votes. If all of the Mentors
> vote in favor of the new committer, the required number of votes is
> obtained, and the vote is submitted to the Incubator PMC for approval by
> acclamation (silent approval, or lazy consensus). But if during private
> voting in the PPMC, fewer than three Incubator PMC members vote, the
> conclusion of the PPMC vote can only be considered a recommendation, and the
> vote must be put to the Incubator PMC.
>
> </guide>
>
> Let me know what you think. Or better, CTR the document yourself. ;-)
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2008, at 7:02 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Martijn Dashorst
>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There is always a lot of confusion on whose votes are binding in our
>>> podlings. The PPMC guide has a small, easy to overlook sentence which
>>> states the obviously not so obvious: "And note that binding votes are
>>> those cast by Incubator PMC members."
>>>
>>> Any objections to crafting such a document, and who would want to take
>>> the lead? As this would be a guide, this would be CTR.
>>>
>>> IMO a structure would be something like this:
>>>
>>> Voting
>>> - when to vote
>>> - how to vote
>>> - whose vote is binding
>>> - when to nofify the Incubator PMC
>>>
>>
>> sounds good to me
>>
>> - robert
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
--
Regards,
Rajith Attapattu
Red Hat
http://rajith.2rlabs.com/
Re: Add voting guide to incubator docs?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
While the subject document is being prepared, I've update the guides/
ppmc.html to add some text with the rationale of the PPMC/PMC voting
process.
The small, easy to overlook, sentence is now two paragraphs.
<guide>
Voting a new committer is one of the most important functions of any
PMC, and the Incubator is no different. Only votes of Incubator PMC
members are binding (counted) when considering a new committer. But
the members of the PPMC, with direct oversight over the podling, are
best able to judge the qualifications and suitability of a proposed
new committer. Therefore, the process for voting a new committer into
an Incubator podling is a bit more complex than voting a new committer
into a Top Level Project.
The role of the PPMC in this process is recommendation to the
Incubator PMC that one of the contributors to the podling is worthy of
committership. The recommendation should reflect consensus of the
PPMC. When it comes to voting, an affirmative vote of at least three
Incubator PMC members is needed. Since the PPMC often contains only
three Incubator PMC members (the podling's Mentors), the challenge for
a PPMC to vote a new committer is to obtain three or more Incubator
PMC members' votes. If all of the Mentors vote in favor of the new
committer, the required number of votes is obtained, and the vote is
submitted to the Incubator PMC for approval by acclamation (silent
approval, or lazy consensus). But if during private voting in the
PPMC, fewer than three Incubator PMC members vote, the conclusion of
the PPMC vote can only be considered a recommendation, and the vote
must be put to the Incubator PMC.
</guide>
Let me know what you think. Or better, CTR the document yourself. ;-)
Craig
On Aug 24, 2008, at 7:02 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Martijn Dashorst
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There is always a lot of confusion on whose votes are binding in our
>> podlings. The PPMC guide has a small, easy to overlook sentence which
>> states the obviously not so obvious: "And note that binding votes are
>> those cast by Incubator PMC members."
>>
>> Any objections to crafting such a document, and who would want to
>> take
>> the lead? As this would be a guide, this would be CTR.
>>
>> IMO a structure would be something like this:
>>
>> Voting
>> - when to vote
>> - how to vote
>> - whose vote is binding
>> - when to nofify the Incubator PMC
>
> sounds good to me
>
> - robert
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Add voting guide to incubator docs?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Martijn Dashorst
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is always a lot of confusion on whose votes are binding in our
> podlings. The PPMC guide has a small, easy to overlook sentence which
> states the obviously not so obvious: "And note that binding votes are
> those cast by Incubator PMC members."
>
> Any objections to crafting such a document, and who would want to take
> the lead? As this would be a guide, this would be CTR.
>
> IMO a structure would be something like this:
>
> Voting
> - when to vote
> - how to vote
> - whose vote is binding
> - when to nofify the Incubator PMC
sounds good to me
- robert
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