You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org> on 2002/06/17 15:41:41 UTC
[doc] wikiland issue
I just read on cocoon-users about wikiland for a Cocoon dictionary. You
can see it for yourself at:
http://www.anyware-tech.com/wikiland/
My question: who owns the result (content) of this particular wikiland
input? Does it belong to anyware-tech (Sylvain's company)? To Olivier?
There is absolutely no copyright information. Can anyone simply take the
results and publish them?
My greatest hope is that the Cocoon project can harvest some of the
results, edit them, and update existing docs. For example, I have been
editing FAQs and have already refined a number of definitions which
would help Wikiland get started. These could be contributed right away.
I think most doc efforts do better with *some* existing content. In
other words, it's easier for people to edit an existing work than to
start from a blank page. For example, look at how many patches have been
contributed to the XMLForm Wizard How-To. Not any new How-Tos, but a lot
of patches/comments.
Will Cocoon be able to use the results of this Wiki in its own docs? I
sincerely hope we can. If so, I look forward to contributing to your
Wikiland. If not, I'm afraid we may eventually have competing Wikis,
which would be a real shame -- for users especially.
Can someone *please* clarify this issue? Sylvain? Olivier?
-- Diana
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: [doc] wikiland issue
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>I think there are two things going on with wikiland, and IMHO it would be
>good to consider them separately:
>
>1) Having a Cocoon-based wiki - great!
>Wikiland is a very nice step in this direction, but as Sylvain mentioned it's
>still at the experimental stage, certainly not ready for production use.
>
>2) Using a wiki to build documentation for Cocoon - great!
>Certainly useful, seing the many discussions in the last
>weeks about commenting the docs and letting users contribute docs easily.
>
>But this requires a full-blown wiki, including versioning features so
>that doc coordinators can see what's happening, and of course XML output.
>Many existing wiki offer this today, unfortunately they're not based on
>Cocoon (yet ;-)
>
>-Bertrand
>
>
I fully agree with you : good synthesis !
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: [doc] wikiland issue
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
Sylvain/Olivier,
Thanks for the *very* clear and informative reply. Your effort is great
news! Thanks to your company for providing the resources. I look
forward to participating in the near future.
On Monday, June 17, 2002, at 11:36 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> I think there are two things going on with wikiland, and IMHO it would
> be
> good to consider them separately:
>
> 1) Having a Cocoon-based wiki - great!
> Wikiland is a very nice step in this direction, but as Sylvain
> mentioned it's
> still at the experimental stage, certainly not ready for production use.
Nevertheless, there's so much we can learn from it, in terms of feedback
on the Cocoon approach as well as feedback on some docs. I'm fully aware
of its present limitations, but it's a very helpful step. And it's
available right now.
> 2) Using a wiki to build documentation for Cocoon - great!
> Certainly useful, seing the many discussions in the last
> weeks about commenting the docs and letting users contribute docs
> easily.
>
> But this requires a full-blown wiki, including versioning features so
> that doc coordinators can see what's happening, and of course XML
> output.
> Many existing wiki offer this today, unfortunately they're not based on
> Cocoon (yet ;-)
The key word being *yet*. Until then, I'm happy we have Olivier's
Wikiland :-) !
--Diana
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: [doc] wikiland issue
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
I think there are two things going on with wikiland, and IMHO it would be
good to consider them separately:
1) Having a Cocoon-based wiki - great!
Wikiland is a very nice step in this direction, but as Sylvain mentioned it's
still at the experimental stage, certainly not ready for production use.
2) Using a wiki to build documentation for Cocoon - great!
Certainly useful, seing the many discussions in the last
weeks about commenting the docs and letting users contribute docs easily.
But this requires a full-blown wiki, including versioning features so
that doc coordinators can see what's happening, and of course XML output.
Many existing wiki offer this today, unfortunately they're not based on
Cocoon (yet ;-)
-Bertrand
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
Re: [doc] wikiland issue
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Diana Shannon wrote:
> I just read on cocoon-users about wikiland for a Cocoon dictionary.
> You can see it for yourself at:
> http://www.anyware-tech.com/wikiland/
>
> My question: who owns the result (content) of this particular wikiland
> input? Does it belong to anyware-tech (Sylvain's company)? To Olivier?
> There is absolutely no copyright information. Can anyone simply take
> the results and publish them?
Here are some common clarifications, from both Olivier and me. We both
work for the same company, but Olivier is currently working a one our
customer's site, hence his "@airbus.com" mail address.
The software behind wikiliand is Apache/Apache-style license, being
composed of Cocoon and Chaperon. The content is governed by a simple
rule : anyone can read, anyone can write !
Let's start with the history of Wikiland : this is a personal experiment
from Olivier about writing a wiki with Cocoon. Then Olivier wanted
people to come to Wikiland to test it and help its development, and
found that a Cocoon dictionary (or glossary ?) would be good a good
subject as, by filling a need in the documentation, it would certainly
attract many people interested in Cocoon, thus being able not only to
write content, but also to help in the development of the software.
Wikiland is hosted at Anyware Technologies, since we have the required
resources, and Olivier couldn't find a free hosting service for a Cocoon
app. But, all this being an experiment, Anyware Technologies makes to
warranty of any kind about anything regarding Wikiland (IANAL, but hope
this makes things clear).
> My greatest hope is that the Cocoon project can harvest some of the
> results, edit them, and update existing docs. For example, I have been
> editing FAQs and have already refined a number of definitions which
> would help Wikiland get started. These could be contributed right away.
Preliminary note : Wikiland should not be considered neither stable nor
featurefull since there are some bugs, and some basic wiki functions are
missing such as writer authentication and revision management. This
means that anything written in this wiki can be deleted by anybody
without notice and with no mean to get the content back ! Also, the
wikiland document base isn't backup'ed (we can however perform backups
if its success requires it).
Now this is with great pleasure that we could accept your contributions
(in fact, we don't even have to accept any contribution as no
authorization is required), but, as explained above, the current status
of Wikiland may not be adequate as the reference system for Cocoon docs.
But the more people use will it, the quicker Wikiland will evolve.
> I think most doc efforts do better with *some* existing content. In
> other words, it's easier for people to edit an existing work than to
> start from a blank page. For example, look at how many patches have
> been contributed to the XMLForm Wizard How-To. Not any new How-Tos,
> but a lot of patches/comments.
We agree that wiki, even if really easy once we know its syntax, can be
hard to learn for a newbie. This is especially true for Wikiland which,
as said previously is for now just an experiment, has some bugs and no docs.
> Will Cocoon be able to use the results of this Wiki in its own docs? I
> sincerely hope we can. If so, I look forward to contributing to your
> Wikiland. If not, I'm afraid we may eventually have competing Wikis,
> which would be a real shame -- for users especially.
Once again, the purpose of Wikiland is to experiment a wiki with Cocoon.
There is *absolutely no intention* from us to build a separate Cocoon
document base, and we will be more than happy for its content to find
it's way in Cocoon. Wikiland should be considered as a scratchpad for
some Cocoon docs (the glossary).
One of our hopes is that we can one day edit Cocoon (or any
Forrest-enabled project) docs directly on the web. Wikiland is a first
experiment in that direction, but remember that wiki is an "anarchic"
documentation system, even if Wikiland tries to organize this anarchy by
allowing topics to be organized hierarchically.
> Can someone *please* clarify this issue? Sylvain? Olivier?
So as you can see, there are no ownership issues, and to make this
clear, we will explicitely add a mention about the whole content as
being governed by the Apache licence. Also, exporting Wikiland docs to
xdoc won't be hard as the wiki text files are converted to XML using
Chaperon for processing.
To stop any flame war about Wikiland, I suggest that we all consider it
as what it is : an ongoing development to build a wiki system with
Cocoon, the dictionary being the pretext to use, test and develop this
wiki. It's content will be available without restriction, but without
warranty.
If this still causes some issues, just let us know.
Sylvain & Olivier
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org