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Posted to dev@cloudstack.apache.org by Alireza Eskandari <as...@yahoo.com.INVALID> on 2014/11/27 15:54:40 UTC
A secure way to reset VMs password
HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https) instead of plan text.Regards
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Logan Barfield <lb...@tqhosting.com>.
I'm all for making the password reset system more secure, as long as it
isn't required. I don't think the risk is substantial for isolated
networks, and being forced to reconfigure every template would be a big
hassle.
I do agree that SSH Key injection should also be available in the GUI.
It's a standard feature in most other "cloud" orchestration suites, and as
mature as the project is I don't see there being a good excuse for it not
being there. I would think a decent developer could knock it out in an
afternoon. I didn't know there was an existing issue open (that hasn't
been touched in almost two years), so I opened another one here recently:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CLOUDSTACK-7882 - This can be
merged/marked as duplicate if needed, but it does need some attention.
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>.
Probably should be re-written.
Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:58, Alireza Eskandari <as...@yahoo.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> John, +1If we provide password reset capability it should be secure, if not it is better to make it disable at all.About source of windows version, so what did we do? Should we write it from scratch? Why it isn't open?I open a jira ticket, if you have any comment or suggestion please write there.https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CLOUDSTACK-8009
> Thanks
> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>
> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 9:18 AM
> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>
> It's not our place to enforce how users authenticate to their VMs. We provide flexible options, suggest best practices, and let them use the tool as best suits their needs.
>
> Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
>
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:22, Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>>
>> -Carlos
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
>>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>>>
>>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>>>
>>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>>
>>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>>>
>>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>>> Jayapal,
>>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>>> Lucian
>>> --
>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>> Nux!
>>> www.nux.ro
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
>>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
>>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>>> method.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jayapal
>>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>>> which SSL certificates to use.
>>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>>> --
>>> Erik
>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Alireza Eskandari <as...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
John, +1If we provide password reset capability it should be secure, if not it is better to make it disable at all.About source of windows version, so what did we do? Should we write it from scratch? Why it isn't open?I open a jira ticket, if you have any comment or suggestion please write there.https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CLOUDSTACK-8009
Thanks
From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>
To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
It's not our place to enforce how users authenticate to their VMs. We provide flexible options, suggest best practices, and let them use the tool as best suits their needs.
Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:22, Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>
> -Carlos
>
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>>
>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>>
>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>>
>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>
>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>>
>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>> Jayapal,
>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>> Lucian
>> --
>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>> Nux!
>> www.nux.ro
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>> method.
>> Thanks,
>> Jayapal
>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>> instead of plan text.Regards
>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>> which SSL certificates to use.
>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>> --
>> Erik
>>
>>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Carlos Reátegui <cr...@gmail.com>.
BTW If anyone wants to upvote the the key management GUI Jira here it is: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CLOUDSTACK-1230
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 9:59 PM, Carlos Reátegui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’m all for providing choice, but not when one of them is not a good/secure one.
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 9:48 PM, John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co> wrote:
>>
>> It's not our place to enforce how users authenticate to their VMs. We provide flexible options, suggest best practices, and let them use the tool as best suits their needs.
>>
>> Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:22, Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>>>
>>> -Carlos
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
>>>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>>>>
>>>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>>>>
>>>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>>>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>>>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>>>
>>>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>>>>
>>>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>>>> Jayapal,
>>>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>>>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>>>> Lucian
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>>> Nux!
>>>> www.nux.ro
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
>>>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>>>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>>>> method.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jayapal
>>>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>>>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>>>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>>>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>>>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>>>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>>>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>>>> which SSL certificates to use.
>>>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>>>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>>>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>>>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>>>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>>>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>>>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>>>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>>>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>>>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>>>> --
>>>> Erik
>>>>
>>>>
>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>.
While they might be better than weak passwords, ssh keys are not a silver bullet - they're harder to use and a case can be made that they're no more secure (think: attacker compromises desktop, accesses ssh key file)
And no, from my previous research, you can't enforce that an ssh key has a passphrase...
Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 22:01, Carlos Reátegui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’m all for providing choice, but not when one of them is not a good/secure one.
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 9:48 PM, John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co> wrote:
>>
>> It's not our place to enforce how users authenticate to their VMs. We provide flexible options, suggest best practices, and let them use the tool as best suits their needs.
>>
>> Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:22, Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>>>
>>> -Carlos
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
>>>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>>>>
>>>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>>>>
>>>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>>>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>>>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>>>
>>>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>>>>
>>>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>>>> Jayapal,
>>>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>>>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>>>> Lucian
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>>> Nux!
>>>> www.nux.ro
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
>>>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>>>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>>>> method.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jayapal
>>>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>>>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>>>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>>>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>>>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>>>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>>>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>>>> which SSL certificates to use.
>>>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>>>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>>>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>>>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>>>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>>>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>>>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>>>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>>>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>>>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>>>> --
>>>> Erik
>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Carlos Reátegui <cr...@gmail.com>.
I’m all for providing choice, but not when one of them is not a good/secure one.
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 9:48 PM, John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co> wrote:
>
> It's not our place to enforce how users authenticate to their VMs. We provide flexible options, suggest best practices, and let them use the tool as best suits their needs.
>
> Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:22, Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>>
>> -Carlos
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
>>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>>>
>>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>>>
>>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>>
>>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>>>
>>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>>> Jayapal,
>>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>>> Lucian
>>> --
>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>> Nux!
>>> www.nux.ro
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
>>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
>>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>>> method.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jayapal
>>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>>> which SSL certificates to use.
>>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>>> --
>>> Erik
>>>
>>>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>.
It's not our place to enforce how users authenticate to their VMs. We provide flexible options, suggest best practices, and let them use the tool as best suits their needs.
Excuse any typos - sent from mobile device
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 21:22, Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>
> -Carlos
>
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>>
>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>>
>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>>
>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>
>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>>
>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>> Jayapal,
>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>> Lucian
>> --
>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>> Nux!
>> www.nux.ro
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>> method.
>> Thanks,
>> Jayapal
>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>> instead of plan text.Regards
>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>> which SSL certificates to use.
>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>> --
>> Erik
>>
>>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Logan Barfield <lb...@tqhosting.com>.
Passwords are most definitely a necessity, but not having SSH Keys in the
GUI at this point just doesn't make any sense.
To clarify my thoughts on the current password system: I think a re-write
would be great, but it should include an "insecure/legacy" option (probably
as a global setting) that would continue to function with the current reset
scripts.
Thank You,
Logan Barfield
Tranquil Hosting
On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Andrija Panic <an...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> +1 what Nux said - I'm aware of many web developers NOT knowing what the
> SSH keys are at all, and thus not using them... most of them relly on
> passwords... but nice to have ssh keys for rest of us.
>
> On 3 December 2014 at 16:52, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro> wrote:
>
> > Keys are not for everyone. Passwords are still used a lot.
> >
> > --
> > Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
> >
> > Nux!
> > www.nux.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Carlos Reategui" <cr...@gmail.com>
> > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2014 05:19:07
> > > Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> >
> > > Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The
> > > functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init
> already
> > > supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not
> > require
> > > CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly
> > sure
> > > how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services
> > > certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
> > >
> > > -Carlos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <
> > Chiradeep.Vittal@citrix.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server
> > needs to be
> > >> able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based
> > on the
> > >> client's IP address.
> > >> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the
> > password is
> > >> retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could
> > sniff
> > >> the first exchange).
> > >>
> > >> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the
> password
> > server
> > >> locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO
> > (containing
> > >> the password) to the VM.
> > >>
> > >> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
> > >> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<mailto:dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> >"
> > >> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> > >> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
> > >> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>"
> > >> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> > >> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> > >>
> > >> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL.
> The
> > server
> > >> side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up
> > every
> > >> 6-12 months. :)
> > >>
> > >> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d
> > love to see
> > >> the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
> > >>
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nux@li.nux.ro<mailto:
> nux@li.nux.ro>>
> > wrote:
> > >> Jayapal,
> > >> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some
> > other port
> > >> (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give
> > you
> > >> plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
> > >> Am I missing any important bits here?
> > >> Lucian
> > >> --
> > >> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
> > >> Nux!
> > >> www.nux.ro
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi"
> > >> <ja...@citrix.com>>
> > >> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>"
> > >> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> > >> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari"
> > >> <as...@yahoo.com>>
> > >> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
> > >> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> > >> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
> > >> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new
> > password reset
> > >> method.
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Jayapal
> > >> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber
> > >> <te...@gmail.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
> > >> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<mailto:
> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid>>
> > wrote:
> > >> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
> > >>
> >
> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
> > >> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password
> string
> > to
> > >> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
> > >> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL
> > (https)
> > >> instead of plan text.Regards
> > >> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
> > >> which SSL certificates to use.
> > >> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages,
> > you
> > >> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
> > >> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
> > >> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly
> > known
> > >> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
> > >> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated
> > (CA
> > >> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working
> > setup
> > >> - using self signed causes issues with validation
> > >> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a
> switch
> > and
> > >> have (proper) SSL in place.
> > >> --
> > >> Erik
> > >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Andrija Panić
>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Andrija Panic <an...@gmail.com>.
+1 what Nux said - I'm aware of many web developers NOT knowing what the
SSH keys are at all, and thus not using them... most of them relly on
passwords... but nice to have ssh keys for rest of us.
On 3 December 2014 at 16:52, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro> wrote:
> Keys are not for everyone. Passwords are still used a lot.
>
> --
> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>
> Nux!
> www.nux.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Carlos Reategui" <cr...@gmail.com>
> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2014 05:19:07
> > Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>
> > Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The
> > functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already
> > supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not
> require
> > CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly
> sure
> > how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services
> > certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
> >
> > -Carlos
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <
> Chiradeep.Vittal@citrix.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server
> needs to be
> >> able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based
> on the
> >> client's IP address.
> >> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the
> password is
> >> retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could
> sniff
> >> the first exchange).
> >>
> >> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password
> server
> >> locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO
> (containing
> >> the password) to the VM.
> >>
> >> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
> >> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>"
> >> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> >> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
> >> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>"
> >> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> >> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> >>
> >> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The
> server
> >> side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up
> every
> >> 6-12 months. :)
> >>
> >> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d
> love to see
> >> the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>>
> wrote:
> >> Jayapal,
> >> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some
> other port
> >> (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give
> you
> >> plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
> >> Am I missing any important bits here?
> >> Lucian
> >> --
> >> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
> >> Nux!
> >> www.nux.ro
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi"
> >> <ja...@citrix.com>>
> >> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>"
> >> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> >> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari"
> >> <as...@yahoo.com>>
> >> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
> >> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> >> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
> >> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new
> password reset
> >> method.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Jayapal
> >> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber
> >> <te...@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
> >> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>>
> wrote:
> >> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
> >>
> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
> >> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string
> to
> >> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
> >> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL
> (https)
> >> instead of plan text.Regards
> >> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
> >> which SSL certificates to use.
> >> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages,
> you
> >> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
> >> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
> >> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly
> known
> >> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
> >> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated
> (CA
> >> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working
> setup
> >> - using self signed causes issues with validation
> >> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch
> and
> >> have (proper) SSL in place.
> >> --
> >> Erik
> >>
>
--
Andrija Panić
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>.
Keys are not for everyone. Passwords are still used a lot.
--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
Nux!
www.nux.ro
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carlos Reategui" <cr...@gmail.com>
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2014 05:19:07
> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The
> functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already
> supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require
> CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure
> how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services
> certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
>
> -Carlos
>
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be
>> able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the
>> client's IP address.
>> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is
>> retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff
>> the first exchange).
>>
>> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server
>> locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing
>> the password) to the VM.
>>
>> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
>> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>"
>> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
>> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>"
>> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>>
>> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server
>> side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every
>> 6-12 months. :)
>>
>> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see
>> the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
>> Jayapal,
>> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port
>> (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you
>> plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>> Am I missing any important bits here?
>> Lucian
>> --
>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>> Nux!
>> www.nux.ro
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi"
>> <ja...@citrix.com>>
>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>"
>> <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari"
>> <as...@yahoo.com>>
>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>> method.
>> Thanks,
>> Jayapal
>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber
>> <te...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>> instead of plan text.Regards
>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>> which SSL certificates to use.
>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>> --
>> Erik
>>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Carlos Reategui <cr...@gmail.com>.
Why do passwords at all? Why not just use ssh keys like AWS does. The functionality is already there just not in the ACS UI. Cloud-init already supports it which is available in most distros and therefore would not require CS specific scripts. At least not for linux. On windows I'm not exactly sure how AWS does it but I think it is also some kind of terminal services certificates so I think it could be made to work too.
-Carlos
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com> wrote:
>
> You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
> Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
>
> You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
>
> From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
> Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
> To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>
> That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
>
> I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
>
> John
>
> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
> Jayapal,
> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
> Am I missing any important bits here?
> Lucian
> --
> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
> Nux!
> www.nux.ro
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
> method.
> Thanks,
> Jayapal
> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
> instead of plan text.Regards
> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
> which SSL certificates to use.
> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
> - using self signed causes issues with validation
> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
> have (proper) SSL in place.
> --
> Erik
>
>
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Chiradeep Vittal <Ch...@citrix.com>.
You would need client-side certs as well since the password server needs to be able to validate WHO is asking for the password. Currently it is based on the client's IP address.
Also the current scheme is a single-use password — as soon as the password is retrieved, it is not available to anybody else (of course a MITM could sniff the first exchange).
You could eliminate a lot of MITM-style attacks by running the password server locally on each hypervisor (hard for VMW), or by attaching an ISO (containing the password) to the VM.
From: John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>>
Reply-To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM
To: "dev@cloudstack.apache.org<ma...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
John
On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>> wrote:
Jayapal,
Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
Am I missing any important bits here?
Lucian
--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
Nux!
www.nux.ro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>>
To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>>
Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>>
Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
method.
Thanks,
Jayapal
On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>>
wrote:
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid<ma...@yahoo.com.invalid>> wrote:
HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
instead of plan text.Regards
I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
which SSL certificates to use.
- certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
- if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
- assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
- using self signed causes issues with validation
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
have (proper) SSL in place.
--
Erik
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by John Kinsella <jl...@stratosec.co>.
That password reset infrastructure has bigger issues than just SSL. The server side works, but that’s about all I can say for it. This topic comes up every 6-12 months. :)
I thought there was a Jira entry but I can’t find it…personally I’d love to see the client and server sides both rewritten from scratch.
John
> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro> wrote:
>
> Jayapal,
>
> Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
>
> Am I missing any important bits here?
>
> Lucian
>
> --
> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>
> Nux!
> www.nux.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>
>> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>
>> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
>> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
>
>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
>> method.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jayapal
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>>>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>>>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>>>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>>>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>>> which SSL certificates to use.
>>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Erik
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>.
Jayapal,
Not necesarily, one could run stunnel or nginx as SSL proxy on some other port (8443?), this way SSL and non-SSL connections will still work and give you plenty of time to update your templates, if you so wish.
Am I missing any important bits here?
Lucian
--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
Nux!
www.nux.ro
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jayapal Reddy Uradi" <ja...@citrix.com>
> To: "<de...@cloudstack.apache.org>" <de...@cloudstack.apache.org>
> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 09:34:02
> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset
> method.
>
> Thanks,
> Jayapal
>
>
>
> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>>
>>>
>> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>> which SSL certificates to use.
>> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
>> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
>> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
>> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>>
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
>> have (proper) SSL in place.
>>
>> --
> > Erik
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>.
Andrija,
Don't think like that if you run a public offering. Convenience will always win, the customer will not change the password. :)
--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
Nux!
www.nux.ro
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrija Panic" <an...@gmail.com>
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Cc: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Friday, 28 November, 2014 12:05:53
> Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
> For me personaly, this Cloudstack feature is used only during "damn I
> forgot my password" and during deploying new VM from template.
>
> After I get access to VM - the password should be really changed anyway.
> I agree it's unsecure, but again you are supposed to change it - and not
> hope that the passwrod generated by third party tool (not yourself) is safe
> or not stored anywhere else...
>
>
> On 28 November 2014 at 10:34, Jayapal Reddy Uradi <
> jayapalreddy.uradi@citrix.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
>> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password
>> reset method.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jayapal
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
>> > astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>> >>
>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>> >> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string
>> to
>> >> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>> >> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL
>> (https)
>> >> instead of plan text.Regards
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
>> > which SSL certificates to use.
>> > - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
>> > could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
>> > signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
>> > - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly
>> known
>> > and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
>> > - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated
>> (CA
>> > must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working
>> setup
>> > - using self signed causes issues with validation
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch
>> and
>> > have (proper) SSL in place.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Erik
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Andrija Panić
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Andrija Panic <an...@gmail.com>.
For me personaly, this Cloudstack feature is used only during "damn I
forgot my password" and during deploying new VM from template.
After I get access to VM - the password should be really changed anyway.
I agree it's unsecure, but again you are supposed to change it - and not
hope that the passwrod generated by third party tool (not yourself) is safe
or not stored anywhere else...
On 28 November 2014 at 10:34, Jayapal Reddy Uradi <
jayapalreddy.uradi@citrix.com> wrote:
>
> Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
> with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password
> reset method.
>
> Thanks,
> Jayapal
>
>
>
> On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
> > astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
> >>
> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
> >> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string
> to
> >> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
> >> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL
> (https)
> >> instead of plan text.Regards
> >>
> >>
> > I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
> > which SSL certificates to use.
> > - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
> > could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
> > signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
> > - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly
> known
> > and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
> > - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated
> (CA
> > must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working
> setup
> > - using self signed causes issues with validation
> >
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch
> and
> > have (proper) SSL in place.
> >
> > --
> > Erik
>
>
--
Andrija Panić
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Jayapal Reddy Uradi <ja...@citrix.com>.
Another point to note is all the vms in production has to update
with the new cloud-set-guest-password scripts because of the new password reset method.
Thanks,
Jayapal
On 28-Nov-2014, at 2:28 PM, Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
> astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
>> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
>> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
>> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
>> instead of plan text.Regards
>>
>>
> I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
> which SSL certificates to use.
> - certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
> could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
> signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
> - if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
> and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
> - assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
> must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
> - using self signed causes issues with validation
>
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
> have (proper) SSL in place.
>
> --
> Erik
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Erik Weber <te...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Alireza Eskandari <
astro.alireza@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password (
> http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and
> export requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https)
> instead of plan text.Regards
>
>
I like the idea, but there's a couple of obstacles to overcome, namely
which SSL certificates to use.
- certificates need a subject name, ie. IP or hostname for web pages, you
could solve this by making the mgmt server a CA and have each VR get a
signed certificate by it, but it's complicated
- if the community bundle a pre generated certificate it is commonly known
and not to be trusted, also not sure how to handle subject name
- assuming everyone to supply a valid certificate is quite complicated (CA
must be on VR etc), and makes it considerably harder to get a working setup
- using self signed causes issues with validation
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's not just to flip a switch and
have (proper) SSL in place.
--
Erik
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Alireza Eskandari <as...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
Lucian, I send email here to see developers opinion about this issue and discuss about it.I'll open a jira ticket about it soon.Thanks for your "+1" :)
From: Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org; Alireza Eskandari <as...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
+1 on this, Alireza I think it would be best if you submitted a bug in https://issues.apache.org/jira/
--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
Nux!
www.nux.ro
Re: A secure way to reset VMs password
Posted by Nux! <nu...@li.nux.ro>.
+1 on this, Alireza I think it would be best if you submitted a bug in https://issues.apache.org/jira/
--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
Nux!
www.nux.ro
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alireza Eskandari" <as...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Sent: Thursday, 27 November, 2014 14:54:40
> Subject: A secure way to reset VMs password
> HiI viewed the bash script that resets Linux password
> (http://download.cloud.com/templates/4.2/bindir/cloud-set-guest-password.in)It
> seems that it doesn't use a secure way for transferring password string to
> instance.Instances on a shared network can sniff password requests and export
> requested password of other instances.I suggest to use SSL (https) instead of
> plan text.Regards