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Posted to dev@lucene.apache.org by Steven A Rowe <sa...@syr.edu> on 2010/03/16 19:47:42 UTC
#lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out as we go...
I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could be addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of #lucene.
I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One of the things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent archive of several freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking about hosting #lucene archive, and apparently all we have to do is ask, after first determining that nobody objects. Here's a link (not incidentally, this is exactly what we will have for #lucene once the service is switched on):
http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?date=2010-03-16#l2
So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent archive?
(I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make sure everybody there knows about the issue.)
Steve
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Yonik Seeley <yo...@apache.org>.
IRC has been discussed to death at Apache:
http://markmail.org/search/?q=IRC+list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.general
Look for the spikes... like this:
http://markmail.org/search/?q=IRC+list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.general#query:IRC%20list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.general%20date%3A200608%20+page:1+state:facets
-Yonik
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Michael McCandless <lu...@mikemccandless.com>.
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Michael Busch <bu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But at the same time can we make sure that the decisions that are made on
> IRC are still being described in a jira issue?
+1
Any time something is discussed on IRC, it must be summarized on the
lists or in an issue, with the details based on what was discussed, or
else it didn't happen....
IRC is a great way to hash out ideas, brainstorm, shoot the breeze,
vent, etc. Much of what's discussed doesn't pan out... but when stuff
does we always bring to the lists...
Those of us spending some time on IRC have been trying to do exactly
that. Maybe we've been falling short sometimes, not providing enough
detail, so we should fix that with time. We're all still learning as
we go...
Also: if an issue is opened and it's missing details, regardless of
whether it was born in IRC or some other place, people should simply
ask questions, punch holes, etc. When another set of eyes, or the
same set of eyes some time later, look at the issue, very different
and healthy iterations happen. Most certainly if something seems like
a good idea during IRC discussions that doesn't not mean the debate is
done -- rather the issue is opened and lots of other people chime in.
Nothing is "decided" on IRC... only ideas are born... that's all.
Stepping back, Lucene/Solr are clearly at a fast pace of innovation
right now, and this is really very healthy. It'd already been fast a
few months ago, but it seems to be accelerating... I think that's
because suddenly we have quite a few strong [near-] full-time devs
here, and, because IRC allows for real-time conversations for
brainstorming.
This is net/net good for both Lucene and Solr and I think we should
try to find a way to make IRC work well so devs that do happen to
have the time (and, the list will change with time -- bright stars never
shine for long) can brainstorm and bring new ideas to the community...
Mike
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Michael Busch <bu...@gmail.com>.
It be very cool to have a searchable archive for the IRC discussions, so +1.
But at the same time can we make sure that the decisions that are made
on IRC are still being described in a jira issue? I don't mean that
people should repeat brainstorming, but if a discussion leads to opening
a Jira issue it'd be good to understand the reasons and details without
having to search the IRC log. Only if someone wants to know more, e.g.
what lead to the discussion, what other ideas were discarded, etc.
should have to go to the IRC log.
Michael
On 3/16/10 11:58 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
> +1, this looks great!
>
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Andi Vajda<va...@osafoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:47, Steven A Rowe<sa...@syr.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
>>>>
>>> I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out as we
>>> go...
>>>
>>> I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could be
>>> addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of #lucene.
>>>
>>> I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One of the
>>> things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent archive of several
>>> freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking about hosting #lucene
>>> archive, and apparently all we have to do is ask, after first determining
>>> that nobody objects. Here's a link (not incidentally, this is exactly what
>>> we will have for #lucene once the service is switched on):
>>>
>>> http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?date=2010-03-16#l2
>>>
>>> So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent archive?
>>>
>> No objections on my part. I think this is essential.
>>
>> Andi..
>>
>>
>>> (I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make sure
>>> everybody there knows about the issue.)
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@lucene.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Michael McCandless <lu...@mikemccandless.com>.
+1, this looks great!
Mike
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Andi Vajda <va...@osafoundation.org> wrote:
>
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:47, Steven A Rowe <sa...@syr.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
>>
>> I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out as we
>> go...
>>
>> I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could be
>> addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of #lucene.
>>
>> I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One of the
>> things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent archive of several
>> freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking about hosting #lucene
>> archive, and apparently all we have to do is ask, after first determining
>> that nobody objects. Here's a link (not incidentally, this is exactly what
>> we will have for #lucene once the service is switched on):
>>
>> http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?date=2010-03-16#l2
>>
>> So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent archive?
>
> No objections on my part. I think this is essential.
>
> Andi..
>
>>
>> (I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make sure
>> everybody there knows about the issue.)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@lucene.apache.org
>>
>
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>
>
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Andi Vajda <va...@osafoundation.org>.
On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:47, Steven A Rowe <sa...@syr.edu> wrote:
> On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
>
> I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out
> as we go...
>
> I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could
> be addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of
> #lucene.
>
> I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One
> of the things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent
> archive of several freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking
> about hosting #lucene archive, and apparently all we have to do is
> ask, after first determining that nobody objects. Here's a link
> (not incidentally, this is exactly what we will have for #lucene
> once the service is switched on):
>
> http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?
> date=2010-03-16#l2
>
> So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent
> archive?
No objections on my part. I think this is essential.
Andi..
>
> (I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make
> sure everybody there knows about the issue.)
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 01:30:42PM -0700, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> Archiving the logs feels like it would be useful, but realistically
> speaking, they would be pretty big and who has the time to read them after
> the fact?
Someone who participated in the chat reviewing it while preparing a summary.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Otis Gospodnetic <ot...@yahoo.com>.
Uh, the IRC logs... Do people really think making those *searchable* would be useful?
I think they'd be *extremely* noisy and hard to interpret without a person really just sequentially reading them. Lots of people talking at the same time, multiple topics, lots of very short intertwined messages that always need a lot of context, aren't threadable, etc.
Archiving the logs feels like it would be useful, but realistically speaking, they would be pretty big and who has the time to read them after the fact? You guys all read the recent issue of The Economist, right? ;)
Otis
----
Sematext :: http://sematext.com/ :: Solr - Lucene - Nutch
Lucene ecosystem search :: http://search-lucene.com/
>
>From: Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>
>To: java-dev@lucene.apache.org
>Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 1:47:56 AM
>Subject: Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>+1
>
>>I'd like to see the IRC logs added to things like
>
>http://search-lucene.com/ and
>
>http://www.lucidimagination.com/search/?q=IRC&Search=Search
>
>>while it might not be great for decision making.. it is amazing for
>helping debug common problems people have
>
>>On 3/17/10 7:10 AM, Chris Hostetter wrote:
>
>: with, "if id didn't happen on the lists, it didn't happen". Its the same as
>>
>>+1
>>
>>But as the IRC channel gets used more and more, it would *also* be nice if
>>there was an archive of the IRC channel so that there is a place to go
>>look to understand the back story behind an idea once it's synthesized and
>>posted to the lists/jira.
>>
>>That's the huge advantage IRC has over informal conversations at
>>hackathons, apachecon, and meetups -- there can in fact be easily
>>archivable/parsable/searchable records of the communication.
>>
>>
>>
>>-Hoss
>>
>>
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@lucene.apache.org
>>
>>
>
Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>.
+1
I'd like to see the IRC logs added to things like
http://search-lucene.com/ and
http://www.lucidimagination.com/search/?q=IRC&Search=Search
<http://www.lucidimagination.com/search/?q=IRC&Search=Search>
while it might not be great for decision making.. it is amazing for
helping debug common problems people have
On 3/17/10 7:10 AM, Chris Hostetter wrote:
> : with, "if id didn't happen on the lists, it didn't happen". Its the same as
>
> +1
>
> But as the IRC channel gets used more and more, it would *also* be nice if
> there was an archive of the IRC channel so that there is a place to go
> look to understand the back story behind an idea once it's synthesized and
> posted to the lists/jira.
>
> That's the huge advantage IRC has over informal conversations at
> hackathons, apachecon, and meetups -- there can in fact be easily
> archivable/parsable/searchable records of the communication.
>
>
>
> -Hoss
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@lucene.apache.org
>
>
>
Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Chris Hostetter <ho...@fucit.org>.
: with, "if id didn't happen on the lists, it didn't happen". Its the same as
+1
But as the IRC channel gets used more and more, it would *also* be nice if
there was an archive of the IRC channel so that there is a place to go
look to understand the back story behind an idea once it's synthesized and
posted to the lists/jira.
That's the huge advantage IRC has over informal conversations at
hackathons, apachecon, and meetups -- there can in fact be easily
archivable/parsable/searchable records of the communication.
-Hoss
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org>.
On Mar 16, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Mark Miller wrote:
> On 03/16/2010 02:57 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote:
>> On Mar 16, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Steven A Rowe wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
>>>>
>>> I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out as we go...
>>>
>>> I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could be addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of #lucene.
>>>
>>> I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One of the things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent archive of several freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking about hosting #lucene archive, and apparently all we have to do is ask, after first determining that nobody objects. Here's a link (not incidentally, this is exactly what we will have for #lucene once the service is switched on):
>>>
>>> http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?date=2010-03-16#l2
>>>
>>> So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent archive?
>>>
>>> (I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make sure everybody there knows about the issue.)
>>>
>> There's also a lot of chatter that happens on IRC, so logging is going to have a lot of noise. I'm still on the fence on what to do. I don't want to get in people's way, but we also need to have traceability about decisions, and we certainly can't have answers like "We discussed this on IRC and you missed it, too bad" happening (not saying that has happening, just saying I don't want to see it).
>>
>> -Grant
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@lucene.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> Even with logging, I'm against using IRC for making decisions, or as something people can point to. Even with searchable logging, I think we should stick with, "if id didn't happen on the lists, it didn't happen". Its the same as when some of us get together and talk about Lucene and Solr - thats great stuff - you can get a lot done that is a lot harder on the lists - you can hash a lot out. But I think people should always have the right to act like it didn't happen - the same as if we are at ApacheCon or something - we don't come back and say, sorry, you missed all the discussion, but we had one and this what we are going to do. We summarize the discussion on the list (like Mike likes to do with IRC), and answer questions as people have them. I personally think its great to come to mini agreements with real-time talk - then it just has to make its way through the list.
>
> This isn't a counter point to anything you said Grant, just a nice place for me to drop this.
>
+1. The ApacheCon talks are a great example of bringing back off list stuff to the list.
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Mark Miller <ma...@gmail.com>.
On 03/16/2010 02:57 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote:
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Steven A Rowe wrote:
>
>
>> On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
>>>
>> I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out as we go...
>>
>> I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could be addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of #lucene.
>>
>> I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One of the things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent archive of several freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking about hosting #lucene archive, and apparently all we have to do is ask, after first determining that nobody objects. Here's a link (not incidentally, this is exactly what we will have for #lucene once the service is switched on):
>>
>> http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?date=2010-03-16#l2
>>
>> So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent archive?
>>
>> (I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make sure everybody there knows about the issue.)
>>
> There's also a lot of chatter that happens on IRC, so logging is going to have a lot of noise. I'm still on the fence on what to do. I don't want to get in people's way, but we also need to have traceability about decisions, and we certainly can't have answers like "We discussed this on IRC and you missed it, too bad" happening (not saying that has happening, just saying I don't want to see it).
>
> -Grant
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
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>
>
Even with logging, I'm against using IRC for making decisions, or as
something people can point to. Even with searchable logging, I think we
should stick with, "if id didn't happen on the lists, it didn't happen".
Its the same as when some of us get together and talk about Lucene and
Solr - thats great stuff - you can get a lot done that is a lot harder
on the lists - you can hash a lot out. But I think people should always
have the right to act like it didn't happen - the same as if we are at
ApacheCon or something - we don't come back and say, sorry, you missed
all the discussion, but we had one and this what we are going to do. We
summarize the discussion on the list (like Mike likes to do with IRC),
and answer questions as people have them. I personally think its great
to come to mini agreements with real-time talk - then it just has to
make its way through the list.
This isn't a counter point to anything you said Grant, just a nice place
for me to drop this.
--
- Mark
http://www.lucidimagination.com
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Re: #lucene IRC log [was: RE: lucene and solr trunk]
Posted by Grant Ingersoll <gs...@apache.org>.
On Mar 16, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Steven A Rowe wrote:
> On 03/16/2010 at 6:06 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>> Does anyone know how other projects fold in IRC...?
>
> I gather from the deafening silence that we'll have to figure it out as we go...
>
> I think some (not all) of the discomfort associated with IRC could be addressed with a permanent, searchable, linkable archive of #lucene.
>
> I went looking for IRC loggers and found http://colabti.org/. One of the things hosted there is a searchable, linkable permanent archive of several freenode channels. I posted on #irclogger asking about hosting #lucene archive, and apparently all we have to do is ask, after first determining that nobody objects. Here's a link (not incidentally, this is exactly what we will have for #lucene once the service is switched on):
>
> http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/irclogger?date=2010-03-16#l2
>
> So, would anybody participating on #lucene object to a permanent archive?
>
> (I'm also going to provide a link to this thread on #lucene to make sure everybody there knows about the issue.)
There's also a lot of chatter that happens on IRC, so logging is going to have a lot of noise. I'm still on the fence on what to do. I don't want to get in people's way, but we also need to have traceability about decisions, and we certainly can't have answers like "We discussed this on IRC and you missed it, too bad" happening (not saying that has happening, just saying I don't want to see it).
-Grant
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