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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Jörn Nettingsmeier <ne...@apache.org> on 2007/04/26 11:16:43 UTC
Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>
>> the freeze for 1.4 RC1 is now in effect.
>
> Since we found some blocker issues, I'd suggest that we cancel
> the freeze, apply the pending patches and attempt another RC1.
let's not cancel the freeze. instead, why not roll an RC2 early next
week which includes the latest bugfix patches in trunk?
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Kurt is up in heaven now.
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Bob Harner wrote:
> On 4/30/07, Markus Angst <ma...@inventec.ch> wrote:
>
>> Richard Frovarp wrote:
>>
>> > You need to release source tarballs. They're quicker number one.
>> svn is
>> > very slow compared to downloading a zipped archive over HTTP. Most
>> > people aren't going to want to mess with getting a project via cvs or
>> > svn. I know I don't. Even if I'm building from source, I'll grab the
>> > tarball instead of checking it out.
>>
>> I 100% agree.
>>
>> Markus Angst
>
>
> For a release *candidate* it probably doesn't matter much whether
> source tarballs are available, but I do feel they are necessary for an
> actual release. And I think a Windows binary is likewise absolutely
> critical. Lots of new people who are looking for a CMS will never try
> Lenya if they have trouble getting the source code from SVN or
> building the app, especially if the other CMS's (the competition) are
> easier to try. You have to remember that people may be looking at
> dozens of competing products and may not have the time to work out
> exactly why SVN or a build process isn't working for them. The 1.4
> release is a big improvement over 1.2.4 and, to over-simplify a bit,
> lowering the evaluation effort can only help win over more new users.
very much agreed
Michi
>
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Bob Harner <bo...@gmail.com>.
On 4/30/07, Markus Angst <ma...@inventec.ch> wrote:
> Richard Frovarp wrote:
>
> > You need to release source tarballs. They're quicker number one. svn is
> > very slow compared to downloading a zipped archive over HTTP. Most
> > people aren't going to want to mess with getting a project via cvs or
> > svn. I know I don't. Even if I'm building from source, I'll grab the
> > tarball instead of checking it out.
>
> I 100% agree.
>
> Markus Angst
For a release *candidate* it probably doesn't matter much whether
source tarballs are available, but I do feel they are necessary for an
actual release. And I think a Windows binary is likewise absolutely
critical. Lots of new people who are looking for a CMS will never try
Lenya if they have trouble getting the source code from SVN or
building the app, especially if the other CMS's (the competition) are
easier to try. You have to remember that people may be looking at
dozens of competing products and may not have the time to work out
exactly why SVN or a build process isn't working for them. The 1.4
release is a big improvement over 1.2.4 and, to over-simplify a bit,
lowering the evaluation effort can only help win over more new users.
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Jann Forrer <ja...@id.uzh.ch>.
Markus Angst wrote:
> Richard Frovarp wrote:
>
>> You need to release source tarballs. They're quicker number one. svn
>> is very slow compared to downloading a zipped archive over HTTP. Most
>> people aren't going to want to mess with getting a project via cvs or
>> svn. I know I don't. Even if I'm building from source, I'll grab the
>> tarball instead of checking it out.
>
> I 100% agree.
>
> Markus Angst
>
+1 for tarballs. Otherwise you have to explain users how to handle svn
e.g. download tagged versions. That is another barrier for trying out
lenya ;-)
BTW, If I try out a new software I usually grab a tarball.
Jann
--
Jann Forrer
Informatikdienste
Universität Zürich
Winterthurerstr. 190
CH-8057 Zürich
oooO mail: jann.forrer@id.uzh.ch
( ) phone: +41 44 63 56772
\ ( fax: +41 44 63 54505
\_) http://www.id.unizh.ch
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Markus Angst <ma...@inventec.ch>.
Richard Frovarp wrote:
> You need to release source tarballs. They're quicker number one. svn is
> very slow compared to downloading a zipped archive over HTTP. Most
> people aren't going to want to mess with getting a project via cvs or
> svn. I know I don't. Even if I'm building from source, I'll grab the
> tarball instead of checking it out.
I 100% agree.
Markus Angst
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Richard Frovarp <Ri...@sendit.nodak.edu>.
>> therefore, if users get in touch with the source anyway, i think it's a
>> small step to using an svn client once a year.
>>
>
> Hmm, I'm hesitant. I guess there are good reasons why the ASF projects
> provide tarballs.
>
> What do the others think?
>
>
You need to release source tarballs. They're quicker number one. svn is
very slow compared to downloading a zipped archive over HTTP. Most
people aren't going to want to mess with getting a project via cvs or
svn. I know I don't. Even if I'm building from source, I'll grab the
tarball instead of checking it out.
Richard
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
[...]
>> IMO we shouldn't change our release procedure. For many users,
>> downloading is much easier than checking out from SVN.
>> We shouldn't underestimate the clear signal of a downloadable tarball:
>> "Here's something we tested, not some random development version".
>
> well, a version tagged as RC is *not* a random development version.
You and me know that, but does the average user know it?
>> I can imagine that many people won't give Lenya a try unless this
>> statement is made.
>
> you certainly have a point, and for many open-source projects, a
> "one-click install" package makes a lot of sense: it's easy for users,
> allows for quick testing, and gives confidence in the maturity of the
> product.
>
> but with a complex servlet engine like lenya, i think things are different:
>
> * getting it to run at all requires some java knowledge (classpaths,
> version problems etc.)
> * lenya is a server application, so we can assume our users (who will be
> *admins* of a server deployment) have slightly more expertise and less
> fear of technical issues than your usual end-users.
> * getting binary java packages to run is sometimes harder than building
> them yourself - or at least problems with your local environment are
> often easier to spot during building.
We won't release any binaries (IIUC), so the build process will still
be necessary with the tarballs.
> hence, i think binary packages are not worth the hassle.
Yes, I agree.
> therefore, if users get in touch with the source anyway, i think it's a
> small step to using an svn client once a year.
Hmm, I'm hesitant. I guess there are good reasons why the ASF projects
provide tarballs.
What do the others think?
-- Andreas
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>> imo, with a complex beast like lenya it's no easier to install a binary
>> package than it is to build it yourself. hence, shouldn't we just ask
>> users to pull from svn by default and only offer source tarballs as an
>> extra courtesy? this might help to lower our users' entrance barrier
>> towards development code, normal users could more easily create svn
>> diffs, and we would save work. plus the user experience would improve,
>> since svn builds get daily testing by all developers, whereas packages
>> tend to be build and forgotten...
>
> IMO we shouldn't change our release procedure. For many users,
> downloading is much easier than checking out from SVN.
> We shouldn't underestimate the clear signal of a downloadable tarball:
> "Here's something we tested, not some random development version".
well, a version tagged as RC is *not* a random development version.
> I can imagine that many people won't give Lenya a try unless this
> statement is made.
you certainly have a point, and for many open-source projects, a
"one-click install" package makes a lot of sense: it's easy for users,
allows for quick testing, and gives confidence in the maturity of the
product.
but with a complex servlet engine like lenya, i think things are different:
* getting it to run at all requires some java knowledge (classpaths,
version problems etc.)
* lenya is a server application, so we can assume our users (who will be
*admins* of a server deployment) have slightly more expertise and less
fear of technical issues than your usual end-users.
* getting binary java packages to run is sometimes harder than building
them yourself - or at least problems with your local environment are
often easier to spot during building.
hence, i think binary packages are not worth the hassle.
therefore, if users get in touch with the source anyway, i think it's a
small step to using an svn client once a year.
for users who have already done that, creating a useful patch is an even
smaller step :)
--
jörn nettingsmeier
home://germany/45128 essen/lortzingstr. 11/
http://spunk.dnsalias.org
phone://+49/201/491621
Kurt is up in Heaven now.
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>>> Jörn Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>>>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>>>> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>>>>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the freeze for 1.4 RC1 is now in effect.
>>>>> Since we found some blocker issues, I'd suggest that we cancel
>>>>> the freeze, apply the pending patches and attempt another RC1.
>>>> let's not cancel the freeze. instead, why not roll an RC2 early next
>>>> week which includes the latest bugfix patches in trunk?
>>> Hmm, we didn't release an RC1 yet ...
>
> ok, seems i got the procedure wrong...
> i thought the tag was already considered a "released" RC1.
>
> imo, with a complex beast like lenya it's no easier to install a binary
> package than it is to build it yourself. hence, shouldn't we just ask
> users to pull from svn by default and only offer source tarballs as an
> extra courtesy? this might help to lower our users' entrance barrier
> towards development code, normal users could more easily create svn
> diffs, and we would save work. plus the user experience would improve,
> since svn builds get daily testing by all developers, whereas packages
> tend to be build and forgotten...
IMO we shouldn't change our release procedure. For many users,
downloading is much easier than checking out from SVN.
We shouldn't underestimate the clear signal of a downloadable tarball:
"Here's something we tested, not some random development version".
I can imagine that many people won't give Lenya a try unless this
statement is made.
-- Andreas
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>> Jörn Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>>> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>>>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>>>
>>>>> the freeze for 1.4 RC1 is now in effect.
>>>> Since we found some blocker issues, I'd suggest that we cancel
>>>> the freeze, apply the pending patches and attempt another RC1.
>>> let's not cancel the freeze. instead, why not roll an RC2 early next
>>> week which includes the latest bugfix patches in trunk?
>> Hmm, we didn't release an RC1 yet ...
ok, seems i got the procedure wrong...
i thought the tag was already considered a "released" RC1.
imo, with a complex beast like lenya it's no easier to install a binary
package than it is to build it yourself. hence, shouldn't we just ask
users to pull from svn by default and only offer source tarballs as an
extra courtesy? this might help to lower our users' entrance barrier
towards development code, normal users could more easily create svn
diffs, and we would save work. plus the user experience would improve,
since svn builds get daily testing by all developers, whereas packages
tend to be build and forgotten...
wdyt?
regards,
jörn
--
jörn nettingsmeier
home://germany/45128 essen/lortzingstr. 11/
http://spunk.dnsalias.org
phone://+49/201/491621
Kurt is up in Heaven now.
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
> Jörn Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>>
>>>> the freeze for 1.4 RC1 is now in effect.
>>> Since we found some blocker issues, I'd suggest that we cancel
>>> the freeze, apply the pending patches and attempt another RC1.
>> let's not cancel the freeze. instead, why not roll an RC2 early next
>> week which includes the latest bugfix patches in trunk?
>
> Hmm, we didn't release an RC1 yet ...
>
> According to the release management docs, we have to stop the
> freeze and re-do the release if blockers are found.
>
> But maybe it's really better to continue the freeze and testing
> for a while.
OK, now we've been testing for quite a while, and a lot of patches
have been piled up. Any objections to cancelling the freeze, applying
the patches, freeze and test again?
-- Andreas
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Re: [1.4] Cancel the freeze?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Jörn Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>> Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>
>>> the freeze for 1.4 RC1 is now in effect.
>>
>> Since we found some blocker issues, I'd suggest that we cancel
>> the freeze, apply the pending patches and attempt another RC1.
>
> let's not cancel the freeze. instead, why not roll an RC2 early next
> week which includes the latest bugfix patches in trunk?
Hmm, we didn't release an RC1 yet ...
According to the release management docs, we have to stop the
freeze and re-do the release if blockers are found.
But maybe it's really better to continue the freeze and testing
for a while.
-- Andreas
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