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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr> on 2011/09/26 21:35:38 UTC
Forum outage
Hello everybody,
Unable to connect to user.services.ooo
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Mon, 2011-09-26 at 15:41 -0400, drew wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-09-26 at 21:35 +0200, FR web forum wrote:
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > Unable to connect to user.services.ooo
>
> I can't hit it via HTTP either - I'll try logon via ssh and see what I
> see..
>
> //drew
>
No luck - can't even ping the server using the ip address.
I've added Andrew R. to the email, I think someone in Hamburg will need
to check...
//drew
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Hello everybody,
Let's go green and move the whole thing to LibreOffice.
I'm fed up with OOo.
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
It's amazing to me that in order to have what is our preference, it is desired to kill off everything else. Apparently, those who love forums have equally strong things to say about lists, and do not come to the rescue of the OpenOffice.org lists at all.
Why is it necessary to spread disdain for forums here on a list where, presumably, the participants are all self-selected and comfortable with lists and if forum-love is our secret vice, perhaps don't ask, don't tell should be restored?
I am happy to see both thrive and serve those who find one or the other or both worthy of following. But then, I'm one of those ignorant top-posters.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug [mailto:dmcgarrett@optonline.net]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 09:35
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
On 09/30/2011 12:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> That's funny. The English-language forum guys seem quite antagonistic
> to e-mail lists.
>
> Now that the forums are up, you will probably find it more useful to
> create your thread there. (I have no quarrel with it being here, just
> consider that the audience is elsewhere.)
>
> - Dennis
>
/snip/
If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
everything,
and you can select those things that interest you.
With a forum, you can only ask a specific question and wait for an
answer, and you will never learn about anything else.
(Yes, I know you can read the posts, but it is a lot more trouble, and
not worth the time and effort.)
And you have to sign in all the time--it doesn't just appear on
your screen. Sign-ins are a pain!
Just my 2¢ doug
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Italo Vignoli [mailto:italo.vignoli@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 06:04
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forum outage
>
> [ ... ]
>
> I have subscribed to this list on purpose, in order to help forum
> members to take their decision in the best way for the sake of users
> (being a user myself).
>
--
Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A. M. Greeley
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Hi Matt,
A mirror of the forums was brought up on Apache infrastructure. It may need
some tweaking. It also does not have a current image of the Forums, which
are still at <http://user.services.openoffice.org/>.
A technical migration activity depends on setting up server and forum
administration on the Apache system and performing the DNS magic to splice
it into the OpenOffice.org namespace in place of the current server.
Beside the logistical delays around that part of the migration, there are
some governance issues. New Terms of Use need to be established and the
agreement and cooperation of the current administrators and moderators of
the forums is required. Those last aspects are being discussed among the
Apache OpenOffice.org project and the current Forum operators.
You can see some of the attempt to narrow in on a mutually-acceptable
proposal at <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Changes+integrate+the+forums+into+the+AOOo+project>. Look at the sidebar expando-tree for more information. At the present
time I think the next move is for the Forum operators to narrow in on
a proposal that is acceptable to them -- I think they are close based on
material that has been shared privately -- and then
indicate their willingness to have it happen.
My sense is that there are other options being considered. I can only speak
to those that involve successful migration into the Apache OpenOffice.org
incubator.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Richards [mailto:mrichards@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 18:46
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
I'm glad the forums service is back online within Oracle's hosting. It would
be nice to have some kind of alternative hosting plan for the forums, in the
event Oracle decides to stop the services they are providing. It does not
appear to be an easy task though, mostly due to heavy politics (forums are
full of them, thus I tent to avoid them personally). I have also noticed
over time in other projects, often users want to use forums or mailing
lists.. Rarely are there people that use both (as a couple have pointed out
within this thread). This is yet another pointless rambling other than to
highlight the point of having an alternative hosting plan sooner than later.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/
>
> Now it's working :)
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
>
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>
--
--Matt
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Matt Richards <mr...@gmail.com>.
I'm glad the forums service is back online within Oracle's hosting. It would
be nice to have some kind of alternative hosting plan for the forums, in the
event Oracle decides to stop the services they are providing. It does not
appear to be an easy task though, mostly due to heavy politics (forums are
full of them, thus I tent to avoid them personally). I have also noticed
over time in other projects, often users want to use forums or mailing
lists.. Rarely are there people that use both (as a couple have pointed out
within this thread). This is yet another pointless rambling other than to
highlight the point of having an alternative hosting plan sooner than later.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/
>
> Now it's working :)
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
--Matt
Re: Forum outage
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
http://user.services.openoffice.org/
Now it's working :)
Thanks,
khirano
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Jim Parkhurst <Ji...@txdot.gov>.
I subscribe to lists -and- forums.
When a question is posed in a list, the history of the question can be researched - if the administrator archives (or allows for archiving of previously asked-and-answered questions. Think: General Practitioner.
When a question is posed in a forum, the challenge is (1) which forum created by the administrator "best fits" the area where the question "should" be posed. If there is no "best fit" then the question will be posted "somewhere" - if at all. Finding the question to respond to it becomes the add-on challenge. I often find multiple same/similar questions posed in various forum areas where one is correctly anchored and the rest are left to wither. And the user posting the question leaves thinking
that no one cares. Think: Specialist.
Be it forum or list, the question for the help-desk operation is "how BEST will the location for the answer be found to be posted AND correctly answered to by others?" The emotion is how the question was correctly answered - rather than the count of inappropriate responses.
>>> On 09/30/2011 at 12:47, <vi...@t-online.de> wrote:
Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
> If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
> everything,
If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's emotions
rather than yours.
End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The acceptance
is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of service due to the
technical restrictions.
> and you can select those things that interest you.
> With a forum, you can only ask a specific question and wait for an
> answer, and you will never learn about anything else.
> (Yes, I know you can read the posts, but it is a lot more trouble, and
> not worth the time and effort.)
> And you have to sign in all the time--it doesn't just appear on
> your screen. Sign-ins are a pain!
> Just my 2* doug
Obviously, you have no clue what you are talking about.
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===========================
TxDOT wants to encourage football fans to enjoy the big game, but to be
responsible when it comes to game day drinking. Know when to Pass up that drink or Pass
off your keys to a designated sober receiver. Dont Drink and Drive.
www.txdot.gov/safety/drink.htm
RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
I think this is not something to address in the abstract.
I suggest visiting the OOo forums and seeing for yourself how
they work and what might be appealing to people who prefer using
their browser to obtain support, find useful information, etc.
Start here: <http://user.services.openoffice.org/>.
Also, not all mailing-list systems are created equal. If you
have registered an ID at OpenOffice.org, go here and see
what being logged-in with your ID provides:
<http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.
Those lists also
have the usual manage-by-email provisions, but isn't this nice?
Visit the archive of a popular one, visit a post, notice that
replies can be made from your browser (no quoting or threading
though [:<(.
These are not substitutes for each other, even though there is
certainly overlap in what people can accomplish using them. It
is, in particular, not a one-size-fits-all deal.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Holtzman [mailto:holtzm@cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 13:14
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
> Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
> >If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
> >everything,
>
> If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's
> emotions rather than yours.
> End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The
> acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of
> service due to the technical restrictions.
Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?
>
> >and you can select those things that interest you.
> >With a forum, you can only ask a specific question and wait for an
> >answer, and you will never learn about anything else.
> >(Yes, I know you can read the posts, but it is a lot more trouble, and
> >not worth the time and effort.)
> >And you have to sign in all the time--it doesn't just appear on
> >your screen. Sign-ins are a pain!
> >Just my 2¢ doug
>
> Obviously, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Again, could you please expand on your opinion?
--
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by floris v <fl...@gmail.com>.
Op 4-10-2011 21:51, Andreas Säger schreef:
> Am 04.10.2011 20:48, Hagar Delest wrote:
>> The only action needed here is just to stop replying this topic!
>> So please let this post be the last one.
>>
>> Hagar
>>
>>
>
> But this is the one and only topic on this ooo-users list. May be we
> can redirect someone to a more helpful place.
>
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/
>
>
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>
Hi Hagar, nice to see you here. :)
For the rest I agree with him. Actually there are more topics on this
list, but not many, and all of them flooded out by the forum outage.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 04.10.2011 20:48, Hagar Delest wrote:
> The only action needed here is just to stop replying this topic!
> So please let this post be the last one.
>
> Hagar
>
>
But this is the one and only topic on this ooo-users list. May be we can
redirect someone to a more helpful place.
http://user.services.openoffice.org/
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
The only action needed here is just to stop replying this topic!
So please let this post be the last one.
Hagar
Le mar. 04 oct. 2011 11:10:46 CEST, floris v <fl...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Op 4-10-2011 6:25, Dennis E. Hamilton schreef:
>> And then farther down in the same message, the question Robert Holtman asked was
>>
>> "Again, could you please expand on your opinion?"
>>
>> When Andreas objected to a characterization of forums (not exactly in a nice way).
>> He responded to that also.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Larry Gusaas [mailto:larry.gusaas@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 20:32
>> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Forum outage
>>
>> On 2011-10-03 9:23 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
>>> Errr...I didn't ask any questions.
>> Yes you did. You asked "Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?" You
>> received a very clear response to that question which you then denigrated by accusing the
>> author of "ranting.
>>
> +1. Some forums have the advantage that you can add users to an ignore list. It'd be great to have that possibility here as well.
>
>
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 04.10.2011 11:10, floris v wrote:
> +1. Some forums have the advantage that you can add users to an ignore
> list. It'd be great to have that possibility here as well.
Another advantage of a mailing list is that you have more flexible tools
at hand (more flexible than a browser). You can filter, tag, combine
filters with tags etc.
But again, this has nothing to do with end user support, and it happens
on your local machine only.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by floris v <fl...@gmail.com>.
Op 4-10-2011 11:41, TJ Frazier schreef:
> On 10/4/2011 05:10, floris v wrote:
> <snip>
>>>
>> +1. Some forums have the advantage that you can add users to an ignore
>> list. It'd be great to have that possibility here as well.
>>
> Actually, we probably do. As owner/moderator of a pair of moribund
> ML's for @documentation.oo.o, I can manage those subscriber lists. A
> user could be de-subscribed, or even blacklisted, but that would be
> drastic, and a real troll could find ways around it.
>
That's not nearly the same thing. Any user on the OOo forum can choose
to ignore the posts by any other user - what happens is that you will
still see that somebody on your ignore list has posted a message in a
thread but the content is hidden. All other users who haven't added that
user to their ignore list will still be able to read his/her post, in
fact you can choose to view it after all. You're talking about banning
and preventing somebody from posting in the future.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com>.
On 10/4/2011 05:10, floris v wrote:
<snip>
>>
> +1. Some forums have the advantage that you can add users to an ignore
> list. It'd be great to have that possibility here as well.
>
Actually, we probably do. As owner/moderator of a pair of moribund ML's
for @documentation.oo.o, I can manage those subscriber lists. A user
could be de-subscribed, or even blacklisted, but that would be drastic,
and a real troll could find ways around it.
--
/tj/
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <sa...@t-online.de>.
Am 04.10.2011 11:10, floris v wrote:
> +1. Some forums have the advantage that you can add users to an ignore
> list. It'd be great to have that possibility here as well.
Another advantage of a mailing list is that you have more flexible tools
at hand (more flexible than a browser). You can filter, tag, combine
filters with tags etc.
But again, this has nothing to do with end user support, and it happens
on your local machine only.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by floris v <fl...@gmail.com>.
Op 4-10-2011 6:25, Dennis E. Hamilton schreef:
> And then farther down in the same message, the question Robert Holtman asked was
>
> "Again, could you please expand on your opinion?"
>
> When Andreas objected to a characterization of forums (not exactly in a nice way).
> He responded to that also.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Gusaas [mailto:larry.gusaas@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 20:32
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forum outage
>
> On 2011-10-03 9:23 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
>> Errr...I didn't ask any questions.
> Yes you did. You asked "Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?" You
> received a very clear response to that question which you then denigrated by accusing the
> author of "ranting.
>
+1. Some forums have the advantage that you can add users to an ignore
list. It'd be great to have that possibility here as well.
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
And then farther down in the same message, the question Robert Holtman asked was
"Again, could you please expand on your opinion?"
When Andreas objected to a characterization of forums (not exactly in a nice way).
He responded to that also.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Gusaas [mailto:larry.gusaas@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 20:32
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
On 2011-10-03 9:23 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
> Errr...I didn't ask any questions.
Yes you did. You asked "Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?" You
received a very clear response to that question which you then denigrated by accusing the
author of "ranting.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011-10-03 9:23 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
> Errr...I didn't ask any questions.
Yes you did. You asked "Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?" You
received a very clear response to that question which you then denigrated by accusing the
author of "ranting.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Robert Holtzman <ho...@cox.net>.
On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 12:42:16PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Bob, Andreas answered your questions. If you weren't going to
> like the answers, why did you ask? It seems odd that someone
> answers the questions asked and then gets beat up for it. Was
> this an exam that Andreas was supposed to pass with an essay
> response?
>
> I agree the ad hominem stuff is too think on both sides of these
> questions. But his last answers are direct responses to the
> questions you asked.
Errr...I didn't ask any questions.
>
> Also, his observations about forums were very specific to
> forums that he uses, and he named them. Not about potential
> forums, or hypothetical forums, etc. His comparison with some
> lists he also participates in (though un-named) are also based on
> his actual experience and I witness all that too. This is not
> hypothetical but what users actually are experiencing in some
> very concrete cases.
He mentioned one forum and no lists that I could see (excluding this
one). As I said in my reply, the shortcomings of lists varies from one
to the other. A blanket condemnation is unwarranted.
Also, is there a reason you quoted so much? Just wondering.
--
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279
RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
Bob, Andreas answered your questions. If you weren't going to
like the answers, why did you ask? It seems odd that someone
answers the questions asked and then gets beat up for it. Was
this an exam that Andreas was supposed to pass with an essay
response?
I agree the ad hominem stuff is too think on both sides of these
questions. But his last answers are direct responses to the
questions you asked.
Also, his observations about forums were very specific to
forums that he uses, and he named them. Not about potential
forums, or hypothetical forums, etc. His comparison with some
lists he also participates in (though un-named) are also based on
his actual experience and I witness all that too. This is not
hypothetical but what users actually are experiencing in some
very concrete cases.
Also, it strikes me that e-mail lists are often used in exactly
the way Andreas describes. Not this one, obviously. Newsgroups
may have served that purpose better in the past, I'm not sure.
Various groups that have e-mail attached or e-mail lists that
have newsgroups attached might also be better, now.
For self-formed groups working to a common purpose, I'm not
confident about IM and especially IRC, though, since there is
no useful archive usually. And they depend on synchronous
participation, something that lists and forums do not require.
Wikis are still good.
For putting together a forum where a group of folks
work on specific tasks and threads, something like an ad hoc
agreement on a Google+ circle might do the job these days.
Instead of mailing lists, one subscribes to RSS feeds instead.
(Likewise for defect-report systems, source-code-management
systems, etc.)
Bottom line, the antagonism between the folks who prefer lists
and those who prefer forums is mystifying to me. I prefer lists
because they integrate perfectly into my personal workflow and
all of the conversations that matter to me. I think forums are
superb in many ways, especially for people whose main communication
resource is their web browser and who are in no position to be
indoctrinated in some higher-ceremony arrangement.
I don't have a browser open all of the time, I have my e-mail
client open all of the time. But it does not do automatic
send-receive (except for my @orcmid twitter stream, of course).
- Dennis E. Hamilton
tools for document interoperability, <http://nfoWorks.org/>
dennis.hamilton@acm.org gsm: +1-206-779-9430 @orcmid
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Holtzman [mailto:holtzm@cox.net]
< http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201110.mbox/%3c20111003181207.GA19919@cox.net%3e>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 11:12
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 08:16:19PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201110.mbox/%3c4E88AA73.90408@t-online.de%3e>
> Am 01.10.2011 22:13, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> <http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201110.mbox/%3c20111001201333.GC7809@cox.net%3e>
> >On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
> > <http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201109.mbox/%3cj64vbj$rv3$1@dough.gmane.org%3e>
> >>Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
> >><http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201109.mbox/%3c4E85EFCA.9080005@optonline.net%3e>
> >>>If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
> >>>everything,
> >>
> >>If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's
> >>emotions rather than yours.
> >>End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The
> >>acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of
> >>service due to the technical restrictions.
> >
> >Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?
> >
>
> Mailing lists are perfect when you have to be sure that a closed
> group of co-workers share the same information at any time.
> This has nothing to do with end user support.
> I know the mailing lists for end users of OOo since many years. The
> quality of service is very poor. Lots of wrong/missing/misleading
> answers, very high noise level, no screenshots, no search facility,
> no text formatting, not even decent hyperlinks and most importantly:
> no administration. Every piece of spam and bullshit has been copied
> to all subscribers when you read it, so there is nothing to move, to
> fix, to remove, which on the other hand makes a mailing list
> superior for closed work groups with a high level of liability.
The things you're ranting about, with the exception of screen shots,
have nothing to do with whether it's a forum or list. Screen shots can
be worked around on a list with the use of a pastebin. As far as
search facilities, it depends on what list. Some have exellent ones.
Every list I subscribe to has hyperlinks.
>
> >
> >Again, could you please expand on your opinion?
> >
>
> On user.services.openoffice.org you won't find a single single spam
> posting, a single off topic thread, duplicate, unsubscribe rant,
> heavy trolling, meta-topic about using the forum, no violation of
> netiquette or forum rules that survives longer than one or two
> hours.
> Instead you can find the answers for hundreds of frequently asked
> questions with screenshots, hyperlinks, clearly structured and
> formatted tutorials and example documents.
Depends on the forum just as it depends on the list you're talking
about.
I have no idea what you're going on about. I think you're either a troll
or you just like to rant. Either way, be my guest.
--
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Robert Holtzman <ho...@cox.net>.
On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 08:16:19PM +0200, Andreas S�ger wrote:
> Am 01.10.2011 22:13, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> >On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
> >>Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
> >>>If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
> >>>everything,
> >>
> >>If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's
> >>emotions rather than yours.
> >>End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The
> >>acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of
> >>service due to the technical restrictions.
> >
> >Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?
> >
>
> Mailing lists are perfect when you have to be sure that a closed
> group of co-workers share the same information at any time.
> This has nothing to do with end user support.
> I know the mailing lists for end users of OOo since many years. The
> quality of service is very poor. Lots of wrong/missing/misleading
> answers, very high noise level, no screenshots, no search facility,
> no text formatting, not even decent hyperlinks and most importantly:
> no administration. Every piece of spam and bullshit has been copied
> to all subscribers when you read it, so there is nothing to move, to
> fix, to remove, which on the other hand makes a mailing list
> superior for closed work groups with a high level of liability.
The things you're ranting about, with the exception of screen shots,
have nothing to do with whether it's a forum or list. Screen shots can
be worked around on a list with the use of a pastebin. As far as
search facilities, it depends on what list. Some have exellent ones.
Every list I subscribe to has hyperlinks.
>
> >
> >Again, could you please expand on your opinion?
> >
>
> On user.services.openoffice.org you won't find a single single spam
> posting, a single off topic thread, duplicate, unsubscribe rant,
> heavy trolling, meta-topic about using the forum, no violation of
> netiquette or forum rules that survives longer than one or two
> hours.
> Instead you can find the answers for hundreds of frequently asked
> questions with screenshots, hyperlinks, clearly structured and
> formatted tutorials and example documents.
Depends on the forum just as it depends on the list you're talking
about.
I have no idea what you're going on about. I think you're either a troll
or you just like to rant. Either way, be my guest.
--
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279
Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <sa...@t-online.de>.
Am 01.10.2011 22:13, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
>> Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
>>> If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
>>> everything,
>>
>> If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's
>> emotions rather than yours.
>> End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The
>> acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of
>> service due to the technical restrictions.
>
> Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?
>
Mailing lists are perfect when you have to be sure that a closed group
of co-workers share the same information at any time.
This has nothing to do with end user support.
I know the mailing lists for end users of OOo since many years. The
quality of service is very poor. Lots of wrong/missing/misleading
answers, very high noise level, no screenshots, no search facility, no
text formatting, not even decent hyperlinks and most importantly: no
administration. Every piece of spam and bullshit has been copied to all
subscribers when you read it, so there is nothing to move, to fix, to
remove, which on the other hand makes a mailing list superior for closed
work groups with a high level of liability.
>
> Again, could you please expand on your opinion?
>
On user.services.openoffice.org you won't find a single single spam
posting, a single off topic thread, duplicate, unsubscribe rant, heavy
trolling, meta-topic about using the forum, no violation of netiquette
or forum rules that survives longer than one or two hours.
Instead you can find the answers for hundreds of frequently asked
questions with screenshots, hyperlinks, clearly structured and formatted
tutorials and example documents.
Before the decline of OOo there used to be around 50 topics per day. The
currently active moderators and aministrators can deal with more than that.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 01.10.2011 22:13, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
>> Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
>>> If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
>>> everything,
>>
>> If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's
>> emotions rather than yours.
>> End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The
>> acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of
>> service due to the technical restrictions.
>
> Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?
>
Mailing lists are perfect when you have to be sure that a closed group
of co-workers share the same information at any time.
This has nothing to do with end user support.
I know the mailing lists for end users of OOo since many years. The
quality of service is very poor. Lots of wrong/missing/misleading
answers, very high noise level, no screenshots, no search facility, no
text formatting, not even decent hyperlinks and most importantly: no
administration. Every piece of spam and bullshit has been copied to all
subscribers when you read it, so there is nothing to move, to fix, to
remove, which on the other hand makes a mailing list superior for closed
work groups with a high level of liability.
>
> Again, could you please expand on your opinion?
>
On user.services.openoffice.org you won't find a single single spam
posting, a single off topic thread, duplicate, unsubscribe rant, heavy
trolling, meta-topic about using the forum, no violation of netiquette
or forum rules that survives longer than one or two hours.
Instead you can find the answers for hundreds of frequently asked
questions with screenshots, hyperlinks, clearly structured and formatted
tutorials and example documents.
Before the decline of OOo there used to be around 50 topics per day. The
currently active moderators and aministrators can deal with more than that.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Robert Holtzman <ho...@cox.net>.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote:
> Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
> >If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
> >everything,
>
> If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's
> emotions rather than yours.
> End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The
> acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of
> service due to the technical restrictions.
Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists?
>
> >and you can select those things that interest you.
> >With a forum, you can only ask a specific question and wait for an
> >answer, and you will never learn about anything else.
> >(Yes, I know you can read the posts, but it is a lot more trouble, and
> >not worth the time and effort.)
> >And you have to sign in all the time--it doesn't just appear on
> >your screen. Sign-ins are a pain!
> >Just my 2¢ doug
>
> Obviously, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Again, could you please expand on your opinion?
--
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279
Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote:
> If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
> everything,
If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's emotions
rather than yours.
End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The acceptance
is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of service due to the
technical restrictions.
> and you can select those things that interest you.
> With a forum, you can only ask a specific question and wait for an
> answer, and you will never learn about anything else.
> (Yes, I know you can read the posts, but it is a lot more trouble, and
> not worth the time and effort.)
> And you have to sign in all the time--it doesn't just appear on
> your screen. Sign-ins are a pain!
> Just my 2¢ doug
Obviously, you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 09/30/2011 12:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> That's funny. The English-language forum guys seem quite antagonistic
> to e-mail lists.
>
> Now that the forums are up, you will probably find it more useful to
> create your thread there. (I have no quarrel with it being here, just
> consider that the audience is elsewhere.)
>
> - Dennis
>
/snip/
If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of
everything,
and you can select those things that interest you.
With a forum, you can only ask a specific question and wait for an
answer, and you will never learn about anything else.
(Yes, I know you can read the posts, but it is a lot more trouble, and
not worth the time and effort.)
And you have to sign in all the time--it doesn't just appear on
your screen. Sign-ins are a pain!
Just my 2¢ doug
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Italo Vignoli [mailto:italo.vignoli@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 06:04
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forum outage
>
> [ ... ]
>
> I have subscribed to this list on purpose, in order to help forum
> members to take their decision in the best way for the sake of users
> (being a user myself).
>
--
Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A. M. Greeley
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
That's funny. The English-language forum guys seem quite antagonistic
to e-mail lists.
Now that the forums are up, you will probably find it more useful to
create your thread there. (I have no quarrel with it being here, just
consider that the audience is elsewhere.)
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Italo Vignoli [mailto:italo.vignoli@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 06:04
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
[ ... ]
I have subscribed to this list on purpose, in order to help forum
members to take their decision in the best way for the sake of users
(being a user myself).
--
Italo Vignoli
italo.vignoli@gmail.com
mobile +39.348.5653829
VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Italo Vignoli <it...@gmail.com>.
On 9/30/11 1:21 PM, floris v wrote:
> The database is fine, Terry took care of that. The problem is that lots
> of volunteers don't like the way they're treated by Apache. We can't
> start running the forum at Apache while there's no agreement on the
> conditions of service.
As you know, there is a server available at TDF for the OOo forum.
I am not a technical guy, so I cannot help with setting up the forums,
but I am available to answer questions related to TDF in general.
TDF is a free software advocate, and has always tried to keep the OOo
community together. Unfortunately, there are companies who have gone in
a different direction, and people who are clearly against TDF (for many
reasons, including the fact that some of them have not been accepted at
TDF because we feel they are not behaving properly inside their native
language community).
TDF is a community project. Volunteers have a say in what they do, and
we do not have a specific and immutable TDF way of doing things. Forums
would be open to everyone, and to any flavour of the OOo heritage.
Of course, a positive attitude would be more welcome that a negative
one, as there should always be a positive attitude even in criticizing
and in accepting criticism. We are here to help as anyone else, and we
are open to all contributors.
Our bylaws can help in understanding TDF better. I warmly invite you all
to visit our website and our wiki, and to ask questions where you have
doubts.
I have subscribed to this list on purpose, in order to help forum
members to take their decision in the best way for the sake of users
(being a user myself).
--
Italo Vignoli
italo.vignoli@gmail.com
mobile +39.348.5653829
VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by floris v <fl...@gmail.com>.
Op 30-9-2011 13:13, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann schreef:
> Hi,
>
> On 30.09.2011 12:01, FR web forum wrote:
>> 4th day without forum
>>
>> Sorry to bother you again
>> But we have a credibility problem with our end-users now
>> Many people could say: OOo is dead
>> No help to us and go to another forum or even worse, choose another
>> office suite.
>>
>> If the server cannot be uptime quickly, would we have a spare solution?
>> Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL u.s.oo.o onto.
>>
>
> On the dev mailing list (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org) the URL
> http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ has been posted - see
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201109.mbox/%3C125D6208-C55D-45CC-B9A5-381564BF9B33@comcast.net%3E
>
> Opening http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ in a browser looks promising.
>
>
> Best regards, Oliver.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>
The database is fine, Terry took care of that. The problem is that lots
of volunteers don't like the way they're treated by Apache. We can't
start running the forum at Apache while there's no agreement on the
conditions of service.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Dave Barton <bm...@apache.org>.
The Apache hosted forums http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ do appear to be
operational. I was able to log in with my previously registered user and
password to post a simple test in the "Site Feedback" section:
http://ooo-forums.apache.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=50
-------- Original Message --------
From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 05:25:18 -0700
> Oliver,
>
> That is a test fixture to conform that migration is workable onto an
> Apache-hosted server. It is not from a current image and the accounts
> are all disabled as far as I know. It is not a live image and
> administration is not set up.
>
> Also, without tying in the OpenOffice.org User ID system,
> reactivation will be sticky.
>
> It might be what has to be taken live, but it would be nice to have
> permission of the current administrators and moderators first. They
> did some voting and some of the NL forums don't want to come to
> Apache. The vote for the EN forums was far from unanimous.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Oliver-Rainer Wittmann
> [mailto:orwittmann@googlemail.com] Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011
> 04:13 To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Forum outage
>
> Hi,
>
> On 30.09.2011 12:01, FR web forum wrote:
>> 4th day without forum
>>
>> Sorry to bother you again But we have a credibility problem with
>> our end-users now Many people could say: OOo is dead No help to us
>> and go to another forum or even worse, choose another office
>> suite.
>>
>> If the server cannot be uptime quickly, would we have a spare
>> solution? Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL
>> u.s.oo.o onto.
>>
>
> On the dev mailing list (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org) the URL
> http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ has been posted - see
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201109.mbox/%3C125D6208-C55D-45CC-B9A5-381564BF9B33@comcast.net%3E
>
> Opening http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ in a browser looks promising.
>
>
> Best regards, Oliver.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr>.
>If the forum does not come up soon, I'd recommend we redirect the URL
>to a page that directs users to this ooo-users list for support
>questions.
Yes, but you talk about only english users. Forums work for 8 others languages.
>But we should not let the
>users be harmed by the lack of resolution on forum migration coupled
>with the current outage of the legacy server.
+1
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Oliver,
>
> That is a test fixture to conform that migration is workable onto an Apache-hosted server.
> It is not from a current image and the accounts are all disabled as far as I know. It is not a live image and administration is not set up.
>
> Also, without tying in the OpenOffice.org User ID system, reactivation will be sticky.
>
> It might be what has to be taken live, but it would be nice to have permission of the current administrators and moderators first. They did some voting and some of the NL forums don't want
> to come to Apache. The vote for the EN forums was far from unanimous.
>
If the forum does not come up soon, I'd recommend we redirect the URL
to a page that directs users to this ooo-users list for support
questions.
I'm sympathetic to the discussions the the forum volunteers continue
to have regarding the future of the forums. But we should not let the
users be harmed by the lack of resolution on forum migration coupled
with the current outage of the legacy server.
-Rob
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oliver-Rainer Wittmann [mailto:orwittmann@googlemail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 04:13
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forum outage
>
> Hi,
>
> On 30.09.2011 12:01, FR web forum wrote:
>> 4th day without forum
>>
>> Sorry to bother you again
>> But we have a credibility problem with our end-users now
>> Many people could say: OOo is dead
>> No help to us and go to another forum or even worse, choose another office suite.
>>
>> If the server cannot be uptime quickly, would we have a spare solution?
>> Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL u.s.oo.o onto.
>>
>
> On the dev mailing list (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org) the URL
> http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ has been posted - see
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201109.mbox/%3C125D6208-C55D-45CC-B9A5-381564BF9B33@comcast.net%3E
>
> Opening http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ in a browser looks promising.
>
>
> Best regards, Oliver.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
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>
>
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Oliver,
That is a test fixture to conform that migration is workable onto an Apache-hosted server.
It is not from a current image and the accounts are all disabled as far as I know. It is not a live image and administration is not set up.
Also, without tying in the OpenOffice.org User ID system, reactivation will be sticky.
It might be what has to be taken live, but it would be nice to have permission of the current administrators and moderators first. They did some voting and some of the NL forums don't want
to come to Apache. The vote for the EN forums was far from unanimous.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Oliver-Rainer Wittmann [mailto:orwittmann@googlemail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 04:13
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
Hi,
On 30.09.2011 12:01, FR web forum wrote:
> 4th day without forum
>
> Sorry to bother you again
> But we have a credibility problem with our end-users now
> Many people could say: OOo is dead
> No help to us and go to another forum or even worse, choose another office suite.
>
> If the server cannot be uptime quickly, would we have a spare solution?
> Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL u.s.oo.o onto.
>
On the dev mailing list (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org) the URL
http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ has been posted - see
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201109.mbox/%3C125D6208-C55D-45CC-B9A5-381564BF9B33@comcast.net%3E
Opening http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ in a browser looks promising.
Best regards, Oliver.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr>.
>> Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL u.s.oo.o onto.
>Opening http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ in a browser looks promising.
Did you tried it? Internal links go to u.s.oo.o and database is outdated since one month.
This is not operational right now and cannot help us.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Oliver-Rainer Wittmann <or...@googlemail.com>.
Hi,
On 30.09.2011 12:01, FR web forum wrote:
> 4th day without forum
>
> Sorry to bother you again
> But we have a credibility problem with our end-users now
> Many people could say: OOo is dead
> No help to us and go to another forum or even worse, choose another office suite.
>
> If the server cannot be uptime quickly, would we have a spare solution?
> Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL u.s.oo.o onto.
>
On the dev mailing list (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org) the URL
http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ has been posted - see
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201109.mbox/%3C125D6208-C55D-45CC-B9A5-381564BF9B33@comcast.net%3E
Opening http://ooo-forums.apache.org/ in a browser looks promising.
Best regards, Oliver.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
On 30/09/2011 FR web forum wrote:
> 4th day without forum
> Sorry to bother you again
> But we have a credibility problem with our end-users now
It seems the issue is solved:
http://user.services.openoffice.org
works correctly for me now (and I agree it is important for users and
for the public image of OpenOffice.org that it keeps working).
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr>.
4th day without forum
Sorry to bother you again
But we have a credibility problem with our end-users now
Many people could say: OOo is dead
No help to us and go to another forum or even worse, choose another office suite.
If the server cannot be uptime quickly, would we have a spare solution?
Set up the ooo-forum.apache.org online and redirect URL u.s.oo.o onto.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 12:15 +0200, FR web forum wrote:
> 3rd day without forum
>
[NOTE - this will likely be my only email today, as soon as it goes my
machines all go offline - its moving day]
Received an email from our Oracle contact yesterday saying:
Something happened that took the server off-line
Oracle policy does not allow them to tell us what that was.
The server will be back on-line
No ETA on when that might happen.
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr>.
3rd day without forum
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr>.
Thanks Drew
The problem seems to be huge because forums don't work today
Wait and cross the fingers
----- Mail original -----
De: "drew" <dr...@baseanswers.com>
À: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Envoyé: Mardi 27 Septembre 2011 22:27:54
Objet: Re: Forum outage
OK - quick update - received an email from Andrew R. at Oracle a few
minutes ago and he is working to get someone on the problem as quickly
as he can...as soon as I know more, you'll know.
//drew
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
OK - quick update - received an email from Andrew R. at Oracle a few
minutes ago and he is working to get someone on the problem as quickly
as he can...as soon as I know more, you'll know.
//drew
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 07:18 -0400, drew wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 12:16 +0200, FR web forum wrote:
> > >it required human intervention in the machine room.
> > Lunch time in Europ and end-users forum is still out of order :-(
>
> Sunrise here - still no love: try to login and it times out...
>
> Next time report the outage using NNTP ( Neutrino Network Transport
> Protocol ) that way it can be fixed _before_ it breaks :-/
>
> Seriously, I'm not even sure who to contact beyond Andrew - who I will
> try again with a direct email and I'll keep checking on it every hour or
> so during the day...
>
Haven't heard anything from anyone in Hamburg yet, and still can't touch
the server - so just dead in water at the moment. I'll keep checking,
not much but at the moment all I can do.
//drew
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 12:16 +0200, FR web forum wrote:
> >it required human intervention in the machine room.
> Lunch time in Europ and end-users forum is still out of order :-(
Sunrise here - still no love: try to login and it times out...
Next time report the outage using NNTP ( Neutrino Network Transport
Protocol ) that way it can be fixed _before_ it breaks :-/
Seriously, I'm not even sure who to contact beyond Andrew - who I will
try again with a direct email and I'll keep checking on it every hour or
so during the day...
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by FR web forum <oo...@free.fr>.
>it required human intervention in the machine room.
Lunch time in Europ and end-users forum is still out of order :-(
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Mon, 2011-09-26 at 13:28 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> It appears that 192.18.196.107 is down. I don't know if it responds
> to pings ordinarily,
Yes - the few times in the past when one could not ping the server it
required human intervention in the machine room.
Nor does it appear to be a router problem as the wiki.s.oo.o server is
up and responding..
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RE: Forum outage
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
It appears that 192.18.196.107 is down. I don't know if it responds
to pings ordinarily, but it reverses as user.services.openoffice.org
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 12:42
To: oooforum@free.fr
Cc: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forum outage
On Mon, 2011-09-26 at 21:35 +0200, FR web forum wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> Unable to connect to user.services.ooo
I can't hit it via HTTP either - I'll try logon via ssh and see what I
see..
//drew
>
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>
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Re: Forum outage
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Mon, 2011-09-26 at 21:35 +0200, FR web forum wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> Unable to connect to user.services.ooo
I can't hit it via HTTP either - I'll try logon via ssh and see what I
see..
//drew
>
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>
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